Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 22

[april4sky]

april4sky (who I assume is some kind of spokesperson for the McCanns)

Thats a big assumption. :waitasec:
I can assure you Mr Bennett your assumption is wrong.
You may not like it but not everyone hates the McCanns, some of us are capable of feeling compassion for them....and still hope that Madeleine will be found alive.

I happen to believe them...along with many others.

As for the arguedo status being removed. Who knows..not you or I.
We will just have to wait and see.

 

[teacherbees]

april - not everyone who thinks they are guilty hates them. I hate that Madeleine wasn't cared for properly, I hate that the McCanns have been less than forthcoming in their story of the last days of Maddy's life and I hate some of the things they do...but I don't hate them.

 

[april4sky]

april - not everyone who thinks they are guilty hates them. I hate that Madeleine wasn't cared for properly, I hate that the McCanns have been less than forthcoming in their story of the last days of Maddy's life and I hate some of the things they do...but I don't hate them.

Teacherbees I didn't say everyone hates the McCanns..It's clear many do however when you read some of the cruel accusations. Some even liken them to psychopaths capable of carrying their childs dead body in a hire car weeks after her assumed death.

I'm glad to hear you don't hate them teacherbees.

I can hate the decision they made without believing they don't love their children very much.
And they are still not allowed to discuss their statements/evidence. So we still haven't heard their side yet.

 

[SleuthMom]

April, I have read before that you agree in the fact that the Mc Canns were wrong in leaving their kids alone several times while they went to dine with friends. Do you agree charges of negligence should be brought against them if Maddie is not found?

 

[april4sky]

April, I have read before that you agree in the fact that the Mc Canns were wrong in leaving their kids alone several times while they went to dine with friends. Do you agree charges of negligence should be brought against them if Maddie is not found?

No SleuthMom I don't, for the simple reason that however much I don't agree with what they decided they did set up their own baby listening arrangement, which isn't illegal in Europe.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:eaDmB6RHTEAJ:www.breakswithtradition.com/familyfriendly/familyfriendly.htm+cornwall+hotels+baby+listening&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

This example is in Cornwall but it happens in many places, particularly holiday resorts. The service was only recently withdrawn by Mark Warner at their other resorts in Europe.
I don't like it, but if you check out the link you will see that unfortunately baby listening services are still being offered.

 

[Tony Bennett]

april4sky wrote: "Some of us are capable of feeling compassion for [the McCanns]...and still hope that Madeleine will be found alive. I happen to believe them...along with many others".

REPLY: Thank you for yout confirmation that you are not in any way either an offical or an unofficial spokesperson for the McCanns.

O.K., your compassion for them is founded, you say, on belief in what the McCanns say. You have faith in the pronouncements of the McCanns and their spokespersons. You trust their account of events, and presumably those of the rest of the 'Tapas 9' as well.

I prefer to rely on the judgment of the Portuguese Judiciara in focussing on Madeleine's probable death in Apartment 5a.

I prefer to use what powers of deduction and analysis I have been given - hence my publication back in January of the '21 Reasons' for doubting the McCanns' version of events i.e. suspecting that the abduction claim is a deliberate hoax.

I prefer to see through their various statements, changes of story and claims.

I look on the McCanns as a couple who - at the very minimum - know exactly how Madeleiene died, and have covered it up. If so, they have triggered one of the most expensive criminal investigations in history, whilst at the same time courting massive public sympathy and raising millions of dollars (no-one knows how much as they won't say) by way of donations, allegedly to help find Madeleine.

I do not hate the McCanns, nor do I actively hate anyone on this earth - though of course there are many McCann-supporters who unfairly try to portray those with a contrary opinion as 'McCann-haters'.

But if myself and millions of others are right in our judgment that the McCanns know how Madeleine died and have delibrately covered it up, they would merit the contempt of the entire world.

Wouldn't they?

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[april4sky]

april4sky Thank you for yout confirmation that you are not in any way either an offical or an unofficial spokesperson for the McCanns.

Your welcome.

O.K., your compassion for them is founded, you say, on belief in what the McCanns say. You have faith in the pronouncements of the McCanns and their spokespersons. You trust their account of events, and presumably those of the rest of the 'Tapas 9' as well.

I prefer to rely on the judgment of the Portuguese Judiciara in focussing on Madeleine's probable death in Apartment 5a.

I prefer to use what powers of deduction and analysis I have been given - hence my publication back in January of the '21 Reasons' for doubting the McCanns' version of events i.e. suspecting that the abduction claim is a deliberate hoax.

I think you will find that the PJ have jumped from one theory to another. They have bungled this investigation from day one IMO.

I prefer to see through their various statements, changes of story and claims.

I prefer to wait until they are no longer gagged by the secrecy law.

I look on the McCanns as a couple who - at the very minimum - know exactly how Madeleiene died, and have covered it up. If so, they have triggered one of the most expensive criminal investigations in history, whilst at the same time courting massive public sympathy and raising millions of dollars (no-one knows how much as they won't say) by way of donations, allegedly to help find Madeleine.

Your opinion...Not mine however.

I do not hate the McCanns, nor do I actively hate anyone on this earth - though of course there are many McCann-supporters who unfairly try to portray those with a contrary opinion as 'McCann-haters'.

I'm glad to hear you don't hate them. But after all the wild accusations levelled at them in the last year I don't doubt there are McCann haters.

Interesting too that some of us who try to defend the McCanns have been portrayed as McCann apologists.

But if myself and millions of others are right in our judgment that the McCanns know how Madeleine died and have delibrately covered it up, they would merit the contempt of the entire world.

Wouldn't they?
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Certainly, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Though I do question your figure of "millions"

 

[Barnaby]

I still trying to figure out something, maybe someone can help? (particularly the Mc Cann's supporters since they go unusually quiet in issues like this):

What the heck is the connection between the kids waking up in the middle of the night crying and a kidnapper entering the room? I just don't get it. COMMON SENSE (obviously lacking here terribly) would indicate that if your kid wakes up in the middle of the night crying is because they feel either sick, they had a nightmare or simply they miss mommy or daddy. Who in the right mind would associate a tot waking up with a stranger trying to abduct them?

Thoughts???

There is no connection Sleuth other than McCanns trying to give credence to their claims of abduction. You are right no normal parent would jump to the conclusion that there was ab abductor in the room if a child woke up, many, many simple explanations to be considered before that one!

This explanation is another lame attempt at trying to divert the "blame" for the crying from the McCanns (for leaving them alone) to the "kidnapper" (who may have been in the apartment, not necessarily attempting a kidnapping). What gets me is if a "presence" in the apartment was enough to awaken and frighten Maddie and Sean on the night of the 2nd then why didn't a "presence" and an actual abduction not bring on hysterics on the night of the 3rd??

You know what they say about a "tangled web"??? IMO, this is this biggest load of hooey!!! Maddie cried because she woke up in the dark and was frightened and Sean woke up because Maddie was crying out for her mom. There was no crying on the night of the 3rd because Maddie was dead and Sean was sedated. I am really getting fed up with this cr*p!

I totally agree with everything you have said here Colomom! Such a good point why did the "abductor" not wake them on the 3rd?

fed up with all the cr*p myself & wish someone with a bit of intelligence would ask them the questions that we are all asking here instead of pussyfooting around them!

Right on, Moms - Sleuth and Colo!

That has to be one of the lamest defenses ever. Maddie awoke and cried because there was a kidnapper in the room - but failed to mention that wee little point when telling her mom about the cries???? Give me a break! Hwo stupid do those people think we are?

Let's see, have I got this right?

Kidnapper enters the room for a run-through, dress rehearsal. Maddie sees him and cries. He promptly threatens her saying, "Ok, you can go ahead and tell your mom you cried but don't you dare mention I was in the room! I'll see ya tomorrow night!"

Yea, sure.....sounds ever so plausible.

They think the whole world is stupid Teacherbees to believe the continuing lies that they spout!

Yea....lifted. Lifted because charges will be brought....

Here's hoping, Colomom!

 

[Barnaby]

...............
I think you will find that the PJ have jumped from one theory to another. They have bungled this investigation from day one IMO.

I prefer to wait until they are no longer gagged by the secrecy law.
Your opinion...Not mine however. I'm glad to hear you don't hate them. But after all the wild accusations levelled at them in the last year I don't doubt there are McCann haters.


...............Certainly, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Though I do question your figure of "millions"

Police exhaust all theories, that is what an investigation is for! You have heard that there were a few ashes in the apartment, again hearsay & not the biggest issue in this investigation!
As for the crime scene being trampled over by numerous peopole, the McCanns made sure of that even before PJ arrived! They are supposed to be intelligent people, most even less educated would know to preserve evidence!

They can well choose to speak when they are being paid for it, a bit of the truth would be nice though & an answer to all the questions which remain a mystery e.g Where was Cuddle Cat? On the shelf as per Kate or on the bed as per Gerry? The shutters were jemmied, the shutters were not jemmied, confirmed by MW! How can you excuse these blatant lies?

The McCanns fund was well over a million pounds at the last count or when we were last allowed to know! The dollar has been worth about 50 British pence for a long time now, certainly since last summer as I bought dollars then, so it is not hard to see where millions is relevant, yes they got millions of dollars even two is a plural, they got more!

Despite my opinions on the McCanns I do not actively hate any human being but like others here, I hate, loathe & abhor what they did to that little girl even if their only crime was leaving her alone which I doubt! They are responsible for her suffering, are a disgrace to any decent parent & have a damned cheek to be representing parents asking for any alert system! They had an effective alert system - watch your kids, don't abandon them in an unlocked, apartment to go drinking, they failed to use it & Madeleine paid the price! I don't hate these people, do I like them? What's to like?

 

[april4sky]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3690775.ece

Portuguese police probing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann were urged last night to hand their files over to private investigators if they wind down their investigation.

There have been various remarks made by Mr Ribeiro and others suggesting they may be coming to the end of the process.
Clarence Mitchell...If they are going to shelve the case -- and if Mr Ribeiro's recent interview is effectively hinting at that -- then in one sense we welcome it because it means that Kate and Gerry will be eliminated from the inquiry.
But equally, what does that mean? Does that mean all the information the police have just sits on a shelf? That's untenable. They have to release the information in their files to our private investigators so they can continue to look for Madeleine." he inquiry.

He spoke of how the initial tide of negative publicity surrounding the McCanns was eventually turned in their favour following a successful libel action against the Express Group newspapers in the UK that he said was embroiled in "a huge spin cycle of nonsense" with some of the Portuguese tabloid media.

Every message we get has been incredibly supportive because of the Donegal connection." Madeleine visited her grandparents in Bundoran on family holiday visiting before her disappearance on May 3, 2007.

"Many of their letters are from Ireland. They get rosary beads sent to them, people praying for them. They've got a real sense the wider Irish Catholic community is really behind them and that counts for so much. It really does give them a boost," he said. "Consistently the Irish support level is there."

 

[teacherbees]

Despite my opinions on the McCanns I do not actively hate any human being but like others here, I hate, loathe & abhor what they did to that little girl even if their only crime was leaving her alone which I doubt! They are responsible for her suffering, are a disgrace to any decent parent & have a damned cheek to be representing parents asking for any alert system! They had an effective alert system - watch your kids, don't abandon them in an unlocked, apartment to go drinking, they failed to use it & Madeleine paid the price! I don't hate these people, do I like them? What's to like?

Exactly, Barnaby!

April, given that Kate herself admitted that Maddy cried for her the night before, do you not think it was absolutely reprehensible for this mother to go off and leave her alone again the second night? I don't care what babysitting arrangements she worked out.

Could you bear the thought of your child spending one minute alone and scared, crying out for you? My thoughts would go along this line...."who cares if we're checking every 30 minutes. What if my little girl starts crying the minute one check ends and has to endure that fear and aloneness for 29 more minutes? And what if, in her terror, she comes looking for me and falls in the pool...or gets lost and wanders away from the complex...or wakes her baby siblings and takes them with her to be hurt....or tries to stand up on something and falls and hurts her head....or gets into the meds we brought and overdoses...or turns on the stove and burns herself....(I could go on.)"

Words can't begin to express how much I abhor the actions of these educated, ought to know better parents.

 

[Barnaby]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3690775.ece

Portuguese police probing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann were urged last night to hand their files over to private investigators if they wind down their investigation.

There have been various remarks made by Mr Ribeiro and others suggesting they may be coming to the end of the process.
Clarence Mitchell...If they are going to shelve the case -- and if Mr Ribeiro's recent interview is effectively hinting at that -- then in one sense we welcome it because it means that Kate and Gerry will be eliminated from the inquiry.
But equally, what does that mean? Does that mean all the information the police have just sits on a shelf? That's untenable. They have to release the information in their files to our private investigators so they can continue to look for Madeleine." he inquiry.

He spoke of how the initial tide of negative publicity surrounding the McCanns was eventually turned in their favour following a successful libel action against the Express Group newspapers in the UK that he said was embroiled in "a huge spin cycle of nonsense" with some of the Portuguese tabloid media.

Every message we get has been incredibly supportive because of the Donegal connection." Madeleine visited her grandparents in Bundoran on family holiday visiting before her disappearance on May 3, 2007.

"Many of their letters are from Ireland. They get rosary beads sent to them, people praying for them. They've got a real sense the wider Irish Catholic community is really behind them and that counts for so much. It really does give them a boost," he said. "Consistently the Irish support level is there."

Playing on the Irish catholics now, to what lengths will these people not stoop!
Let me make it very clear, any true Catholic would never choose an Anglican service over the Catholic Mass & that is no disrespect to Anglicans or any other religion, if they are catholic then they are Catholic not Anglican, or any other! The McCanns have repeatedly done this even on the anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance. Their hypocrisy makes me ill!

 

[april4sky]

Police exhaust all theories, that is what an investigation is for! You have heard that there were a few ashes in the apartment, again hearsay & not the biggest issue in this investigation!

Ashes are news to me!! But unless they are confirmed as being Madeleines ashes "if thats your inference" then they mean nothing.

As for the crime scene being trampled over by numerous peopole, the McCanns made sure of that even before PJ arrived! They are supposed to be intelligent people, most even less educated would know to preserve evidence!

It's the job of the police to secure a crime scene...Why didn't they?
Under the circumstances...if we could think...I doubt whether any of us would think of preserving the apartment at the height of panic and terror. IMO we wouldn't be thinking of anything other than finding our missing child.

They can well choose to speak when they are being paid for it, a bit of the truth would be nice though & an answer to all the questions which remain a mystery e.g Where was Cuddle Cat? On the shelf as per Kate or on the bed as per Gerry? The shutters were jemmied, the shutters were not jemmied, confirmed by MW! How can you excuse these blatant lies?

I don't believe they have lied Barnaby.
We all know they can't discuss their statements "yet". I look forward to hearing from them as soon as they can discuss them.
How can you believe all the malicious rumours?

The McCanns fund was well over a million pounds at the last count or when we were last allowed to know! The dollar has been worth about 50 British pence for a long time now, certainly since last summer as I bought dollars then, so it is not hard to see where millions is relevant, yes they got millions of dollars even two is a plural, they got more!

Not sure of your point here Barnaby.

Despite my opinions on the McCanns I do not actively hate any human being but like others here, I hate, loathe & abhor what they did to that little girl even if their only crime was leaving her alone which I doubt! They are responsible for her suffering, are a disgrace to any decent parent & have a damned cheek to be representing parents asking for any alert system! They had an effective alert system - watch your kids, don't abandon them in an unlocked, apartment to go drinking, they failed to use it & Madeleine paid the price! I don't hate these people, do I like them? What's to like?

The meaning of hate..from the dictionary.....
....to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest.

 

[Texana]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3690775.ece

"Many of their letters are from Ireland. They get rosary beads sent to them, people praying for them. They've got a real sense the wider Irish Catholic community is really behind them and that counts for so much. It really does give them a boost," he said. "Consistently the Irish support level is there."

Which proves my point, the support for the McCanns has nothing to do with what they did (leave their children alone) but what they are, what they appear to be--a point carefully reinforced by the McCanns after Maddie's disappearance. (the many church trips, flying to Italy to have Madeleine's picture blessed, an event that was reported as "meeting with the Pope" even though it wasn't actually a meeting, but gave the air of a Papal blessing on the couple themselves.)

How nice for the McCanns, and that doesn't matter one way or another as to whether or not they were criminally negligent in leaving those children alone--nor does it tell us what actually happened to Maddie.

If this had been a low-income, minority couple in some public housing section of Great Britain, who had run down to the pub on the corner, I think the public outcry would have been quite different. The McCanns literally got a "get out of jail free" card based on their attributes--which should have been cause to hold them MORE responsible, not less.

The McCanns could have used their celebrity status to push for having the 'baby listening" service removed or outlawed. But no, not one word from them on this--which would arguably do more for child safety than an after-the-fact Amber alert.

Why not? because a) the McCanns still arrogantly believe they were justified in leaving their children alone? or b) they know that the baby listening attempt had nothing to do with what really happened to Madeleine.

 

[april4sky]

Exactly, Barnaby!

April, given that Kate herself admitted that Maddy cried for her the night before, do you not think it was absolutely reprehensible for this mother to go off and leave her alone again the second night? I don't care what babysitting arrangements she worked out.

Could you bear the thought of your child spending one minute alone and scared, crying out for you? My thoughts would go along this line...."who cares if we're checking every 30 minutes. What if my little girl starts crying the minute one check ends and has to endure that fear and aloneness for 29 more minutes? And what if, in her terror, she comes looking for me and falls in the pool...or gets lost and wanders away from the complex...or wakes her baby siblings and takes them with her to be hurt....or tries to stand up on something and falls and hurts her head....or gets into the meds we brought and overdoses...or turns on the stove and burns herself....(I could go on.)"

Words can't begin to express how much I abhor the actions of these educated, ought to know better parents.

Kate didn't say that Madeleine cried for her the night before she disapeared..though thats how it's being portrayed.
She said it was a passing comment from Madeleine said in such a way that they were puzzled and unsure of when she meant as she seemed so unconcerned and immediately went off to play..as children do.
Maybe they should have asked Madeleine but because it was a passing comment and she wasn't upset they let it go....easy with hindsight.

 

[april4sky]

Which proves my point, the support for the McCanns has nothing to do with what they did (leave their children alone) but what they are, what they appear to be--a point carefully reinforced by the McCanns after Maddie's disappearance. (the many church trips, flying to Italy to have Madeleine's picture blessed, an event that was reported as "meeting with the Pope" even though it wasn't actually a meeting, but gave the air of a Papal blessing on the couple themselves.)

How nice for the McCanns, and that doesn't matter one way or another as to whether or not they were criminally negligent in leaving those children alone--nor does it tell us what actually happened to Maddie.

If this had been a low-income, minority couple in some public housing section of Great Britain, who had run down to the pub on the corner, I think the public outcry would have been quite different. The McCanns literally got a "get out of jail free" card based on their attributes--which should have been cause to hold them MORE responsible, not less.

The McCanns could have used their celebrity status to push for having the 'baby listening" service removed or outlawed. But no, not one word from them on this--which would arguably do more for child safety than an after-the-fact Amber alert.
Why not? because a) the McCanns still arrogantly believe they were justified in leaving their children alone? or b) they know that the baby listening attempt had nothing to do with what really happened to Madeleine.

I don't believe it proves your point Texana, there are many people who believe them.

It's too easy to blame them because they are not a low income family from a council housing estate too. Though neither of them come from a priviliged background.

You can't have it both ways Texana...You say the baby listening service should be outlawed....at the same time accusing the McCanns of being criminally negligent.:waitasec:

 

[april4sky]

Playing on the Irish catholics now, to what lengths will these people not stoop!
Let me make it very clear, any true Catholic would never choose an Anglican service over the Catholic Mass & that is no disrespect to Anglicans or any other religion, if they are catholic then they are Catholic not Anglican, or any other! The McCanns have repeatedly done this even on the anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance. Their hypocrisy makes me ill!

Some of these accusations are more than ridiculous IMO.
As for calling their religion into question....

They attended the Anglican church in their village earlier in the day..It was service which included all the local religions.

Later that evening they attended...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...y-family-s-tears-and-prayers-100252-20863298/

MADELEINE McCann’s parents returned to the Liverpool church where she was baptised to mark the first anniversary of her abduction.
Kate and Gerry McCann attended an emotional service at Our Lady of the Annunciation at Bishop Eton RC Monastery in Mossley Hill to pass the poignant milestone on Saturday evening.

 

[Texana]

I don't believe it proves your point Texana, there are many people who believe them.

It's too easy to blame them because they are not a low income family from a council housing estate too. Though neither of them come from a priviliged background.

You can't have it both ways Texana...You say the baby listening service should be outlawed....at the same time accusing the McCanns of being criminally negligent.:waitasec:

I think that leaving children that age alone would obviously be negligent, no matter what services were offered. They can get up out of their beds, they can open doors and even figure out locked doors (I had twin nephews at age 2 who had to have deadbolts installed at adult heights because they figured out how to unlock doors and would escape down the street.) The baby listening service might be barely--barely acceptable for very young infants.

The McCanns were criminally negligent because, as they admitted, they knew the children had awakened and were crying. So they knew for a fact that there was some kind of problem the night before. In choosing to repeat their actions, they were negligent.

The baby listening service might have been acceptable practice before Madeleine's disappearance, but with the McCanns now knowing, as it enabled an abductor (as they claim) to take their child--why don't they speak out against it?

I can think of dozens of examples of practices or things that were considered safe, proved to be fatal to children, and consequently, the parents went on campaigns to outlaw the practices after losing a child.

Here's an example, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker lost his grandchild to an accidental drowning:

http://wassermanschultz.house.gov/speeches/sp060127_poolsafety.html

Had a sitter or adult been present in the resort room, with a locked door, it is unlikely he/she could have entered even once (as Kate now claims must have happened to wake the children) let alone twice, and take Madeleine.

So pure and simple, outlawing or discontinuing "baby listening" would go a long way to keeping children safe.

As well, the McCanns did not use a baby listening service, in which an employee would make regular rounds. The diners relied on themselves and their own sense of timing, while eating, drinking, and conversing, to check on the children.

 

[Tony Bennett]

april4sky asked: "It's the job of the police to secure a crime scene...Why didn't they?"

REPLY: Er, for a start, in the highly controversial circumstances under which the alarm was raised, it seems it was the McCanns who invited several friends into the apartment at around 10.00pm.

Maybe after they spent the day on a clean-up operation. Maybe not.

Then we are told that, after raising the alarm, Kate McCann sat on the bed in the children's room refusing (for whatever reason) to move.

Then remember that the local police were told in no uncertain terms that this was an abduction and had two apparently disraught parents on their hands, one of them apparently sobbing in the childrens' room. Should the police have immediately ejected everyone? Including the apparently sobbing Kate?

But the answer to your question is that the police DID seal the place off as a crime scene as soon as practicable.

april4sky, look at the TV pictures the next day (4 May) and you will see police tape all round the 'crime scene' - the apartment - and Police Officers gathering forensic evidence.

Including, I might add, NO evidence of the shutters being tampered with - despite the McCanns' urgent 'phone calls to their relatives in which they screamed: "It's a disaster. Madeleine's been abducted. The abducter broke in through the shutters".

The McCanns have blamed the police.

The McCanns have blamed Mark Warners.

The McCanns have blamed the media.

The McCanns have even claimed the lack of a buggy prevented them from taking the children out with them for a meal (!).

In fact, they've done all they could possibly have done to create a mass of diversions and smokescreens

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[SleuthMom]

April:

Kate didn't say that Madeleine cried for her the night before she disapeared..

It appears to me in this interview, I may be wrong.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MV4Ck61Favg