Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 22

[Barnaby]

Ashes are news to me!! But unless they are confirmed as being Madeleines ashes "if thats your inference" then they mean nothing. It's the job of the police to secure a crime scene...Why didn't they?


Under the circumstances...if we could think...I doubt whether any of us would think of preserving the apartment at the height of panic and terror. IMO we wouldn't be thinking of anything other than finding our missing child.
I don't believe they have lied Barnaby.
We all know they can't discuss their statements "yet". I look forward to hearing from them as soon as they can discuss them.
How can you believe all the malicious rumours?

Not sure of your point here Barnaby.



The meaning of hate..from the dictionary.....
....to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest.

I presumed that you were well aquainted with all reports on this case April, LOL, I was wrong! PJ were accused of contaminating evidence found in the apartment with cigarette ash, it was not about Madeleine's "ashes" LOL!
Perhaps if PJ had been called immediately & not almost an hour later the scene would have been secured!

At the height of panic & terror if my daughter had been abducted, I would have been out looking for her, frantically screaming her name not sitting like a lame duck on the bed sobbing!

I ask you how can you be so naive as to believe all the lies that the McCanns have told, have you not even questioned the discrepancies in what they have already said?

Don't know what point you are not sure of but if you are referring to the definition of hate, there is some difference in hating the person & hating what the person did! many people have tried to explain that to you here April, I am not going to waste anymore time on it!

Kate didn't say that Madeleine cried for her the night before she disapeared..though thats how it's being portrayed.
She said it was a passing comment from Madeleine said in such a way that they were puzzled and unsure of when she meant as she seemed so unconcerned and immediately went off to play..as children do.
Maybe they should have asked Madeleine but because it was a passing comment and she wasn't upset they let it go....easy with hindsight.

You really are naive! Everyone is against the poor McCanns protraying them in a bad light! For God's sake waken up & smell the roses! They have admitted that the child asked why they did not come when she & sean were crying! Now this is from the proverbial horse's mouth & you still don't believe!

It is an absolute lie that they just didn't take it on board because Madeleine seemed unconcerned, they were called back from Chaplin's bar, a long way away from the apartment the night before by MW staff because there had been complaints about the children crying! FACT! So whether madeleine appeared unconcerned or not they knew those children had been distressed & they still left them the next night!

As for the poor puzzled, unsure parents, why didn't they make darned sure, spend a few minutes of their precious time with her & ask!
Bottom line they leaked this information to strengthen the abduction story, it backfired on them & now they are trying to make light of it! They think they are brilliant manipulators but they only dig a deeper hole for themselves!

I don't believe it proves your point Texana, there are many people who believe them.

It's too easy to blame them because they are not a low income family from a council housing estate too. Though neither of them come from a priviliged background.

You can't have it both ways Texana...You say the baby listening service should be outlawed....at the same time accusing the McCanns of being criminally negligent.:waitasec:

Yes the baby listening service should be outlawed, someone listening at a door does not know if a child is living or dead inside, just that there is no noise at that time!

The McCanns are 1000% criminally negligent!

Some of these accusations are more than ridiculous IMO.
As for calling their religion into question....

They attended the Anglican church in their village earlier in the day..It was service which included all the local religions.

Later that evening they attended...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...y-family-s-tears-and-prayers-100252-20863298/

MADELEINE McCann’s parents returned to the Liverpool church where she was baptised to mark the first anniversary of her abduction.
Kate and Gerry McCann attended an emotional service at Our Lady of the Annunciation at Bishop Eton RC Monastery in Mossley Hill to pass the poignant milestone on Saturday evening.

This is not the first time that the McCanns have chosen to go to an Anglican Church over a catholic one. They went to Catholic Church in PDL, doesn't make them staunch catholics! Kate's mother said they were not religious, the running to the Church was a front to make them look like good people!

 

[Texana]

April:



It appears to me in this interview, I may be wrong.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MV4Ck61Favg

I watched it twice, and Kate does say that Madeleine said "why didn't you come when Sean and I cried" and it was referring to the previous evening. Kate goes on to say that perhaps it was when they were in the bath--but IF it was when the children were alone, Maddie must have fallen back asleep quickly because the children were being checked on " so regularly" although Gerry declines to identify exactly the time period between checks.

One other points about the interview: When the McCanns are asked if they would give a timeline of their actions from 6:30-10:00 that evening, Kate closes her eyes and looks down. Gerry gives a snort/exhalation of breath and goes on to say that they've given all of that to police, their friends have given voluntary interviews, etc, etc. but he does not answer the question about the timeline.

 

[Barnaby]

I watched it twice, and Kate does say that Madeleine said "why didn't you come when Sean and I cried" and it was referring to the previous evening. Kate goes on to say that perhaps it was when they were in the bath--but IF it was when the children were alone, Maddie must have fallen back asleep quickly because the children were being checked on " so regularly" although Gerry declines to identify exactly the time period between checks.

One other points about the interview: When the McCanns are asked if they would give a timeline of their actions from 6:30-10:00 that evening, Kate closes her eyes and looks down. Gerry gives a snort/exhalation of breath and goes on to say that they've given all of that to police, their friends have given voluntary interviews, etc, etc. but he does not answer the question about the timeline.

One would think that would be clearly imprinted on Kate's mind in view of the ensuing events. To infer that she doesn't even remember when/where it was said is ludicrous & proves that she is a LIAR!

 

[Texana]

One would think that would be clearly imprinted on Kate's mind in view of the ensuing events. To infer that she doesn't even remember when/where it was said is ludicrous & proves that she is a LIAR!

I didn't make it very clear (I'm recovering from a bout with food poisoning, so I'm not up to speed I guess) that Kate was sure when Madeleine said that, but she wasn't sure what time Madeleine was referring to.

That was her first lame excuse. Maybe Maddie was talking about when she was crying in the bath or just before bed? (you would think that the McCanns would remember that, wouldn't you? Since it was only the next day?)

The bath comment is also interesting. Why would Maddie say "and you didn't come" if they were "in the bath?" Aren't those children a bit young to be alone in the bath? Or did someone else give them a bath?

Then, Kate says she didn't pay attention to the comment because Maddie said it in such a passing way.

But then she says that she followed up by asking Maddie "when" and Maddie didn't answer her, so she dropped it. (Proof of course that Kate is a good mother, and that it is Maddie's fault Kate did not follow up further on the crying comment.)

Now Kate realizes that Maddie must have been awoken by an intruder, and that's why she was awake and crying.

However, if this is all true, then why didn't Kate and Gerry say this when asked before about whether or not that night was the first night they left the children?

Here's a clip from the interview where they are asked directly and Kate closes her eyes again, Gerry answers:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PT8QJL9nlaw&feature=related

Why is it a year later that Kate says now that she knows it was an intruder? And please, don't give the "secrecy of the investigation" as the excuse again. The McCanns and their spokesmen have repeatedly referred to the Portuguese LE as "Keystone Kops." Let's not pretend that they have any respect for the Portuguese, nor that answering that question would have harmed the investigation (not the way they answered it.)

The video clip goes on to show the actual distance between the restaurant and the McCanns' apartment. Always worth watching again to remind us the first and initial lie that was repeated over and over again.

 

[colomom]

Just to "spin" your Mother's Day friends.....

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1105_maddie.shtml

Maddie World Exclusive:
First pictures and video in flat

How fiend could have kept out of sight

By Keith Gladdis & Dominic Herbert

For the first time the News of the World takes you right INSIDE the holiday flat where Madeleine McCann was snatched one year ago.

We are the ONLY media organisation in the world to be invited in to take these exclusive pictures which reveal startling new evidence and insights into the crime mystery that has shocked millions.

<continues>

 

[colomom]

To some of my favorite moms on the planet!!!

:blowkiss:

 

[Barnaby]

Just to "spin" your Mother's Day friends.....

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1105_maddie.shtml

Maddie World Exclusive:
First pictures and video in flat

How fiend could have kept out of sight

By Keith Gladdis & Dominic Herbert

For the first time the News of the World takes you right INSIDE the holiday flat where Madeleine McCann was snatched one year ago.

We are the ONLY media organisation in the world to be invited in to take these exclusive pictures which reveal startling new evidence and insights into the crime mystery that has shocked millions.

<continues>

Ah! What can I say other than the more I read the more disgusted I become!

Matthew Oldfield is the fall guy now! I hope this article makes him so mad that he may just spill the beans!

The reference to the abductor carrying a "limp Madeleine" makes me want to cry, someone carried that little pet limp that's for sure!

Now let me ask if a child was so badly injured that there was blood spatter on the walls & a bloody footprint outside what would motivate the abductor to continue with the abduction? To carry around a dead or dying child to be caught & to have to dispose of a body? This makes no sense if the child was that badly injured surely an abductor would have fled? & how could a 3 year old struggle so much with a grown man that he would need to injure her so badly?
Honestly, these wild attempts at justifying the abduction theory are so infantile that I cannot comprehend anyone perpetuating them further. Do any of these people have a brain?

To some of my favorite moms on the planet!!!

:blowkiss:

Thanks Colomom & to you! Mother's day is in March here, so I didn't think of it until I saw your post. Hope all the great mums here had a fab day close to their precious kids!

 

[colomom]

Ah! What can I say other than the more I read the more disgusted I become!

Matthew Oldfield is the fall guy now! I hope this article makes him so mad that he may just spill the beans!! ~snip~

I heard a rumor that he already did, during the interviews in the UK....only time will tell.

 

[Barnaby]

I heard a rumor that he already did, during the interviews in the UK....only time will tell.

I so hope so Colomom! Something has to give in this case!

This is now being toted around on other forums by the naive people who believe that the McCanns are totally innocent! Perish the day!


Kate and Gerry McCann to be formally cleared

Kate and Gerry McCann will be formally cleared as suspects in daughter Madeleine's disappearance by August, their lawyer said yesterday.
Rogerio Alves said detectives in Portugal had finally admitted they have no evidence against the couple and were preparing to lift their arguido status.
But he also warned the move could signal the end of the year-long hunt for the four-year-old.
He said: "I believe by August the police will close the case and lift arguido status." Kate and Gerry, both 40 and from Rothley, Leics, were made official suspects in Madeleine's disappearance in September.
They have always denied any involvement.
The outgoing head of Portugal's police said yesterday he believed the mystery may never be solved and also hinted police were preparing to wind up the case. Alipio Ribeiro said: "There are cases like these that are sometimes resolved years afterwards."
But McCann spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "We don't want the case to remain unsolved."
Meanwhile, Kate and Gerry have revealed they will not be celebrating Madeleine's fifth birthday on Monday. Mr Mitchell added: "Gerry will be at work and Kate will be at or around home. Sadly, for them it is just another day without Madeleine."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...9520-20412998/

 

[april4sky]

april4sky asked: "It's the job of the police to secure a crime scene...Why didn't they?"

REPLY: Er, for a start, in the highly controversial circumstances under which the alarm was raised, it seems it was the McCanns who invited several friends into the apartment at around 10.00pm.

A child was reported missing..Nothing controversial about that.
The PJ did not secure the crime scene until much later. Did not remove bedding. Did not take cuddle cat.
Protecting a crime scene is part of securing one.
A list here of what the PJ did and didn't do.

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=maddie-cops-are-totally-clueless&method=full&objectid=19658501&siteid=9346 3-name_page.html

Maybe after they spent the day on a clean-up operation. Maybe not.

Pure speculation on your part.

Then we are told that, after raising the alarm, Kate McCann sat on the bed in the children's room refusing (for whatever reason) to move.

Is this supposed to be a critisism of her? It has been reported that she was told to remain in the flat in case Madeleine was found and returned, and also the twins were there.

Then remember that the local police were told in no uncertain terms that this was an abduction and had two apparently disraught parents on their hands, one of them apparently sobbing in the childrens' room. Should the police have immediately ejected everyone? Including the apparently sobbing Kate?

I believe the above link answers this.

But the answer to your question is that the police DID seal the place off as a crime scene as soon as practicable.

They clearly didn't as part of securing a crime scene is collecting possible evidence...just a couple of the things being the bedding and cuddle cat.
Kate's been condemned for washing cuddle cat which she wouldn't have been able to do had the PJ done a professional job in taking it.

april4sky, look at the TV pictures the next day (4 May) and you will see police tape all round the 'crime scene' - the apartment - and Police Officers gathering forensic evidence.

Including, I might add, NO evidence of the shutters being tampered with - despite the McCanns' urgent 'phone calls to their relatives in which they screamed: "It's a disaster. Madeleine's been abducted. The abducter broke in through the shutters".

The McCanns have blamed the police.

The McCanns have blamed Mark Warners.

The McCanns have blamed the media.

They haven't blamed the PJ for Madeleine's disapearance.
They have critisised some of the investigation. Rightly so IMO.
They are very concerned that the PJ have not been searching for some time. Again rightly so IMO.
They have never to my knowledge blamed Mark Warner for Madeleines disapearance.
They have blamed the media for the many lies they have printed for which the media paid a high price and apologised. Rightly so.

The McCanns have even claimed the lack of a buggy prevented them from taking the children out with them for a meal (!).

They appear to have made their decision for a few reasons.

Regarding the baby listening services, "If you are not already trying to make it illegal as I imagine you don't aprove of the practice" it surprises me that someone like you..who is or has been closely involved in politics...isn't trying to get the law changed to make it illegal.

In fact, they've done all they could possibly have done to create a mass of diversions and smokescreens

I don't believe they, or their supporters, are the ones trying to create a smoke screen. :waitasec::waitasec:

 

[Texana]

Well, for people who aren't trying to create smoke screens and diversions, the McCanns sure are doing an awfully good job.

 

[Tony Bennett]

The News of the World (NOTW) - Britain's best-selling Sunday newspapere by a long margin - has a front-page 'exclusive' on Madeleine, based on their having gained the 'first-ever' access to Apartment 5a of the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz.

The NOTW report says this: "Our detailed survey of the flat reveals a host of places Maddie’s abductor could have hidden when it’s most likely he was almost caught in the act by Dad Gerry as he checked on her and twins, Sean and Amelie, at 9.05pm on May 3 last year..."

So here we have a new and much stronger emphasis on the abductor being in the flat when Gerry checked the flat (allegedly) at 9.05pm/9.10pm.

It's interesting to enquire as to why there is such keenness on the part of Team McCann to dwell on the possibility of the abductor being in the apartment when Gerry was there.

If Jane Tanner is certain she saw a man carrying a child away from the apartment at around 9.15pm, then - if the abductor wasn't in Apartment 5a during Gerry's check - he would have needed to enter the apartment, pick up Madeleine, and run off with her very quickly.

However, in one of the other titbits given to us by Team McCann earlier, we were told that Gerry had entered every room (all four) of the apartment. It would be very hard for an abductor to hide while Gerry entered all four rooms, and while he paused to hover over Madeleine thinking how beautiful she was and what a lucky father he was. But this is what the front-page article in the NOTW is suggesting - and that will be read by over 5 million people today.

Gerry has cannily claimed that when he carried out his check, he noticed that the door to the children's room was open wider than before. Indeed, he was so specific that he claimed it had been at 45 degrees (half open) and was now at 60 degrees (two thirds open) - a strangely precise observation, the significance of which he apparently only realised much later.

So, according to Gerry and the NOTW (which has strongly backed the McCanns all along), the abductor must have entered the apartment before 9.05pm.

Now here's another conundrum.

Mr and Mrs McCann have always claimed that they set off down to the Tapas bar at around 8.30pm.

They have also strenuously maintained that the abductor must have been 'casing the joint' for days, and observing the movements of the McCanns, presumably from a house or block of flats overlooking Apartment 5a. Indeed, this theory was strongly featured in the Panorama programme on 19 November 2007.

So, if the abductor had been watching closely for days, and if he had chosen Thursday 3rd May as his day of action, we need to ask this question:

Why did he wait before entering Apartment 5a?

Surely, if he existed at all, he would have swooped on Apartment 5a minutes after he had observed Gerry and Kate walk down to the Tapas bar.

So what was he doing there at 9.05pm?

Did he wait for half-an-hour?

It all goes to suggest, once again, that the entire sequence of events that evening was a pre-arranged charade - an act - played out to convince the police and the world that they were doing half-hourly checks, and that Madeleine was abducted at around 9.15pm.

In that context, we can see Matthew Oldfield's check at 9.30pm for what it probably is - a story carefully and craftily designed to enhance the claim that the abductor had already removed Madeleine by 9.30pm. For he claims that the apartment was 'somewhat lighter' - clearly (IMO) a statement designed to suggest the abductor had raised the shutters.

Unfortunately for him, between 8.30pm and 9.30pm, dusk had fallen and the whole town was almost in the dark!

Plus Matthew Oldfield has never told us when he had previously checked the apartment.

He says that the apartment was 'lighter' than before.

Lighter than when?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[april4sky]

I presumed that you were well aquainted with all reports on this case April, LOL, I was wrong! PJ were accused of contaminating evidence found in the apartment with cigarette ash, it was not about Madeleine's "ashes" LOL!
Perhaps if PJ had been called immediately & not almost an hour later the scene would have been secured!

Cigarette ash!! Yes, I had forgotten about that.:waitasec:
Thanks for reminding me Barnaby. Just another example of the PJ not protecting a crime scene.

At the height of panic & terror if my daughter had been abducted, I would have been out looking for her, frantically screaming her name not sitting like a lame duck on the bed sobbing!

None of us can possibly know how we would react in such a crisis. IMO

I ask you how can you be so naive as to believe all the lies that the McCanns have told, have you not even questioned the discrepancies in what they have already said?

Your opinion again Barnaby....we are all entitled to them...Whose to say yours is right.:waitasec:
I don't accept that I am naive either....they still cannot discuss their statements and I look forward to hearing from them.
And how can you believe rumours and smears?

Don't know what point you are not sure of but if you are referring to the definition of hate, there is some difference in hating the person & hating what the person did! many people have tried to explain that to you here April, I am not going to waste anymore time on it!

Not sure about your reference to the fund.

You really are naive! Everyone is against the poor McCanns protraying them in a bad light! For God's sake waken up & smell the roses! They have admitted that the child asked why they did not come when she & sean were crying! Now this is from the proverbial horse's mouth & you still don't believe!

Your opinion again....No surprise that I disagree with it.

As for naive....It's rather arrogant IMO to accuse someone of being naive just because they don't happen to agree with you.

It is an absolute lie that they just didn't take it on board because Madeleine seemed unconcerned, they were called back from Chaplin's bar, a long way away from the apartment the night before by MW staff because there had been complaints about the children crying! FACT! So whether madeleine appeared unconcerned or not they knew those children had been distressed & they still left them the next night!

Again your opinion plus rumour!!

As for the poor puzzled, unsure parents, why didn't they make darned sure, spend a few minutes of their precious time with her & ask!
Bottom line they leaked this information to strengthen the abduction story, it backfired on them & now they are trying to make light of it! They think they are brilliant manipulators but they only dig a deeper hole for themselves!

Nothing but opinion!!

Yes the baby listening service should be outlawed, someone listening at a door does not know if a child is living or dead inside, just that there is no noise at that time!

I agree with you on this point.

The McCanns are 1000&#37; criminally negligent!

We may not agree with it but baby listening is legal.

This is not the first time that the McCanns have chosen to go to an Anglican Church over a catholic one. They went to Catholic Church in PDL, doesn't make them staunch catholics! Kate's mother said they were not religious, the running to the Church was a front to make them look like good people!

I have never questioned their choice of religion as I believe it's none of my business.
They did however attend a Catholic Church as well as attending the service held for Madeleine at their local Anglican Church on the day you were reffering to, Didn't they?

 

[april4sky]

I think that leaving children that age alone would obviously be negligent, no matter what services were offered. They can get up out of their beds, they can open doors and even figure out locked doors (I had twin nephews at age 2 who had to have deadbolts installed at adult heights because they figured out how to unlock doors and would escape down the street.) The baby listening service might be barely--barely acceptable for very young infants.

The McCanns were criminally negligent because, as they admitted, they knew the children had awakened and were crying. So they knew for a fact that there was some kind of problem the night before. In choosing to repeat their actions, they were negligent.

The baby listening service might have been acceptable practice before Madeleine's disappearance, but with the McCanns now knowing, as it enabled an abductor (as they claim) to take their child--why don't they speak out against it?

I can think of dozens of examples of practices or things that were considered safe, proved to be fatal to children, and consequently, the parents went on campaigns to outlaw the practices after losing a child.

Here's an example, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker lost his grandchild to an accidental drowning:

http://wassermanschultz.house.gov/speeches/sp060127_poolsafety.html

Had a sitter or adult been present in the resort room, with a locked door, it is unlikely he/she could have entered even once (as Kate now claims must have happened to wake the children) let alone twice, and take Madeleine.

So pure and simple, outlawing or discontinuing "baby listening" would go a long way to keeping children safe.

As well, the McCanns did not use a baby listening service, in which an employee would make regular rounds. The diners relied on themselves and their own sense of timing, while eating, drinking, and conversing, to check on the children.

I agree with you Texana that the baby listening service should be illegal. It isn't yet however so they were not criminally negligent.
And it makes no difference who is doing the baby listening IMO...the parents or the staff.

I don't think Kate is claiming the kidnapper entered twice. It is something they now consider a possibility....in hindsight.

Texana everything they try to do..without exception is used to critisize them.
For instance...critisized because they have been trying to help with the campaign to bring into law in Europe the equivalent of the Amber alert system.
Maybe in time they will get involved with the baby listening problem.
But give them a bit of slack...their child is still missing.

You are right Texana, sadly there are far too many accidents, some of them fatal, to children involving practices considered safe by adults. And not all illegal.

Regarding James Baker's grandaughter....
I remember seeing the poor childs mother being interviewed on Larry King a while ago.
It's heartbreaking and very very sad for all of them. And something they will never get over.

 

[Tony Bennett]

REPLIES TO 15 QUERIES FROM april4sky:

1. A child was reported missing…Nothing controversial about that.

REPLY: Except that where the missing child is alleged to have been removed from a house, it is very often the case that there has been an intra-family killing. Or some other unusual circumstances.

This year: Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury, Yorkshire.

Last year:

Baby Grace (the battered baby in the box near Galveston).

Harmony Jude Creech, ‘The baby in the attic’- reported missing August 2007, but later found dead in the attic.

Leonardo Giovanni Sendejas - another U.S. case.

Previous years:

Joana Cipriano (blood in the fridge case - Portugal)

JonBenet Ramsey.

Charles Augustus Lindbergh, Jr.

Also, it can by no means ruled out that Ben Needham was not abducted, but was instead killed when he went out with his uncle on his uncle’s motorbike.
Ben had been playing on his uncle Stephen’s motorbike that morning. Ben disappeared at the exact same moment that the uncle roared away from Ben’s grandparents’ farmhouse at lunch-time. Years later, the uncle reported nightmares.

See Peterborough Ev ening Telegraph, 2001:
“The grandmother of missing boy Ben Needham said yesterday she was ‘very upset’ at reports that her son buried the youngster’s body. Ben, (pictured) who was born in Sheffield, was just 21-months-old when he vanished from the Greek island of Kos on July 24, 1991, while he was with his family. Theories have included Ben was killed, abducted by gipsies or sold to a family who could not have a child. Police have never closed the file. Ben has not been seen since, despite many appeals by his family and the British authorities over the years. The last person to see him before his disappearance was thought to be his uncle Stephen Needham, who has undergone hypnosis to retrieve memories of what may have happened when Ben disappeared near his grandparents’ farmhouse. It has been reported that Mr Needham, now 27, believes he crashed his motor scooter and how he then has the nightmare of burying Ben with a spade. But he does not believe it is a true memory and the images must have been planted in his mind by the aggressive questioning of the police at the time of Ben’s disappearance”.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2. The PJ did not secure the crime scene until much later. Did not remove bedding. Did not take cuddle cat.

REPLY: You say ‘much later’. Yet early the following morning we see police tape all over the place and several police officers in and out of the property. I believe a forensic team was there that day (Friday). A forensic team could hardly be gathered at midnight. And moreover the McCanns’ claim was that there had been an abduction, so no doubt top priority was given to the search for Madeleine. It is clear that Kate McCann did not search. We are not sure when Gerry searched, though it is claimed he was out searching till around 4.00pm to 4.30pm. It is by no means clear how many of the rest of the ‘Tapas 9’, if any, did any searching. Why did the police not remove bedding and Cuddle Cat? If you are right about that (do you have sources?) I would imagine that the Senior Investigating Officer would have instructed the McCanns to leave everything in place, awaiting a forensic team the following day. We need to bear in mind also that the PJ forensics team, plus Mark Warners, immediately destroyed the McCanns’ claim that the shutters had been ‘jemmied open’, and later on, if reports are correct, examined the window-sill over which the abductor is supposed to have climbed, and found no trace of anyone or anything having disturbed the encrusted accumulations of moss and lichens.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

3. Protecting a crime scene is part of securing one.

REPLY: Agreed

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4. A list here, in an article in ‘The People’, of what the PJ did and didn't do.

REPLY: I will use a separate post (below) to analyse the article in ‘The People’. It is dated 19 August 2007, significantly, just 18 days before the McCanns were to become ‘arguidos’. It is based on unnamed police sources, thus its reliability must be questioned. It is what Gerry McCann himself would refer to as ‘rumour’ or ‘speculation’.

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5. It is pure speculation on your part as to whether there was a clean-up operation.

REPLY: Not entirely. There were reports - admittedly also from unnamed police sources - suggesting that a variety of cleaning fluids had been used in Apartment 5a in an attempt to destroy evidence. There were 8 reported ‘sightings’ of Madeleine during 3rd May but each one was open to doubt as I have posted elsewhere on other Forums. If, as it seems Portuguese police accept, Madeleine died in Apartment 5a, quite possibly during the night of 2nd/3rd May, a clean-up operation would be necessary and they would need all day to do it. Especially if Madeleine died a violent death, with blood spilt, which certainly can’t be ruled out.

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6. You said: “Then we are told that, after raising the alarm, Kate McCann sat on the bed in the children's room refusing (for whatever reason) to move”. Is this supposed to be a critisism of her? It has been reported that she was told to remain in the flat in case Madeleine was found and returned, and also the twins were there.

REPLY: We have been told different things about the twins, but the most common tale we are told is that the twins were asleep during all the commotion and were removed to a neighbouring flat soon after (or even before on some accounts) the alarm was raised. Gerry has publicly suggested that the abductor drugged the twins! My key point was not that she remained in the apartment but that she remained sitting on the bed. Any one of a number of the ‘Tapas 9’ friends could have stayed in the apartment in case Madeleine returned. Kate McCann did not go searching. She did not stay with her twins. Why did she - according to reports - stay obstinately sitting on the bed?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

7. They clearly didn't [seal off the place as a crime scene] as part of securing a crime scene is collecting possible evidence...just a couple of the things being the bedding and cuddle cat. Kate's been condemned for washing cuddle cat which she wouldn't have been able to do had the PJ done a professional job in taking it.

REPLY: Yet even after washing Cuddle Cat, the scent of death remained, according to reports. My suggestion would be that forensics could see no blood on Cuddle Cat and decided that there would be no usable finger prints or DNA either. They may have been wrong about that. But then, april4sky, if we come to mention Cuddle Cat, how are we to reconcile the McCanns’ initial claim that Cuddle Cat had been placed on ‘a high shelf or ledge’ with Kate’s later statement to journalist Lori Campbell (see ‘Independent’ and ‘Sunday Mirror’ 5 August 2007) that Cuddle Cat had been left by the abductor in Madeleine’s bed?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

8. The McCanns haven't blamed the PJ for Madeleine's disapearance.

REPLY: I should hope not!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

9. They have critisised some of the investigation. Rightly so IMO.

REPLY: They have claimed they were ‘fitted up’. They have claimed the PJ failed to follow up all of the hundreds of claimed ‘sightings’ of Madeleine literally around the world - an impossible task, yet one that the PJ pursued diligently with the help of Interpol and many foreign police forces.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PART 2 of reply follows

=======================================================

 

[Tony Bennett]

PART 2 OF REPLIES TO 15 QUESTIONS BY april4sky:


10. They are very concerned that the PJ have not been searching for some time. Again rightly so IMO.

REPLY: Where should they be searching? They have only Jane Tanner&#8217;s unlikely and changing accounts of an abductor, and otherwise have no leads.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


11. They have never to my knowledge blamed Mark Warner for Madeleines disapearance.


REPLY: No, but they were prepared to mention on film, very recently, that Mark Warners had failed to provide a baby-sitting service. Their spokesman Clarence Mitchel had to come to the rescue and say that there was no implied criticism of Mark Warners in what the McCanns said.


See this report for example: &#8220;In the documentary Mrs McCann refers to the fact that Mark Warners failed to provide a baby listening service. But the McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: &#8216;I wish to make it clear that Kate McCann does not attack Mark Warner for the absence of a baby listening service at the Ocean Club in the forthcoming ITV documentary&#8217;.&#8221;

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


12. They have blamed the media for the many lies they have printed for which the media paid a high price and apologised. Rightly so.


REPLY: Maybe the abduction is a lie? Maybe the claimed &#8216;sighting&#8217; of Madeleine by David Payne at 6.30pm/7pm on Thursday 3 May is a lie. Maybe Gerry&#8217;s &#8216;check&#8217; at 9.05pm is a lie. Maybe Gerry&#8217;s claim that the McCanns &#8216;would never sedate a child&#8217; is a lie? Maybe the McCanns&#8217; claim that they do not know what happened to Madeleine is a lie?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


13. They appear to have made their decision [to dine out at the Tapas bar again after Madeleine cried the night before] for a few reasons.


REPLY: What are those &#8216;few reasons&#8217;?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

14. Regarding the baby listening services, "If you are not already trying to make it illegal as I imagine you don't aprove of the practice" it surprises me that someone like you..who is or has been closely involved in politics...isn't trying to get the law changed to make it illegal.


REPLY: In view of the surge in the numbers of reported cases of young children being left on their own for unreasonable periods of time by their parents, I have taken these two actions:


1. Helped to form The Madeleine Foundation, whose stated aims are:


a) to make every effort to ensure that Kate and Gerry McCann are prosecuted for their admitted abandoning of their children six nights in a row in Praia da Luz


b) to change the law in whatever way is needed in order to send out a clear message to all parents that leaving young children on their own is never acceptable, and to strive for the adoption of a &#8216;Madeleine&#8217;s Law&#8217; with its key message: &#8220;Never leave young children on their own&#8221;


c) to pursue - in conjunction with others - the truth about Madeleine McCann&#8217;s disappearance on 3 May 2007, and in particular to encourage Kate and Gerry McCann and the friends who were with them in Praia da Luz to tell the truth about Madeleine&#8217;s disappearance


d) to investigate the facts behind the extent of British government involvement in this case and the reasons for it


e) to ensure that the media, in particular the British media, report this case accurately and give due weight to the opinions of so many of the general public that the McCanns are withholding the truth about Madeleine&#8217;s disappearance


f) to demand a full-scale investigation by the relevant authorities into the activities of the Find Madeleine Fund private trust and to encourage the trustees of that fund to give full particulars about its income and expenditure to the public who have donated so generously to it with the express purpose of finding Madeleine


g) to generally promote the welfare of children, in particular by ensuring that parents are aware of the psychological needs of their children and ensuring that the relevant authorities take appropriate action to safeguard and promote the welfare of children.


2. Begun this petition [ http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/no-to-neglect/ ] on the U.K. Prime Minister&#8217;s website: We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to bring in a new law to make it a criminal offence to leave children aged under 12 on their own, for the following reasons: More and more children aged under 12 are being left on their own at home by their parents without proper supervision. The law on this point is totally unclear and appears to be covered only by the 1933 Children and Young Persons Act. The topic of young children being left on their own has been in the news in the past year and it is submitted that now is a good time to review existing laws. The dangers to young children of being left on their own are numerous and potentially very serious. The law should deter people with children under 12 from even thinking about leaving them on their own. Sumitted by Anthony Bennett &#8211; Deadline to sign up by: 11 February 2009 &#8211; Signatures so far: 149


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

15. I don't believe they, or their supporters, are the ones trying to create a smoke screen.

REPLY: You are entitled to your beliefs. Especially if they are well founded

=======================================================

 

[Tony Bennett]

april4sky cites an article in the U.K. 'Sunday People' in August 2007 as proof of the incompetence of the Portuguese police. Here is the entire article, with my comments in bold:

‘The People’ article on August 2007 analysed by Tony Bennett

The Portuguese police hunting Madeleine McCann have been branded "Keystone
Cops" by British officers shocked at their appalling blunders.

Detectives from Leicestershire are said to be horrified that clues which could have led to the tot's abductors have probably been lost forever.

COMMENT: Which Leicestershire detectives?

The British cops, drafted in to review the three-month investigation, were stunned by the "incompetence, inaccuracy and crass inefficiency" they found.

A source close to the team said the officers had been "tearing their hair out in frustration and disbelief" at basic errors which have hindered the search for four-year-old Maddie.

He told The People: "The Portuguese investigation has been a total shambles. Our guys were left shaking their heads at every turn asking: 'Why the hell did they do that...why didn't they do this?' "They are shocked, disappointed and p***** off by what they've found because basic procedures were not followed.

"Local police appear to have been running around like the Keystone Cops without any proper co-ordination."

The source added: "Crucial clues may have been lost and valuable hours were wasted.
The McCanns' apartment was scrubbed out and occupied by new tenants only five weeks after Madeleine disappeared and the inquiry was supposedly still highly active.

When our guys arrived after 13 weeks they had to go back to square one - except square one had been trampled over with size 11 boots."

COMMENT: I think all the key forensics would have been done before the new tenants were allowed in

The Portuguese investigators came under fire within hours of Maddie's disappearance in Praia da Luz on May 3 for failing to seal off the area, start house-to-house enquiries and alert border guards.

COMMENT: We have been told that border guards were informed, I don’t know at what time. Some house-to-house enquiries were certainly done. We don’t know how systematic it was. I do not know if it would have been practical to seal off Praia da Luz, which is presumably what is meant by ‘the area’

Officers leading the hunt have even been criticised by local journalists over their long lunches and apparently laid-back attitude.

Police chief Guilhermino Encarnacao, 59, was dubbed Inspector Clueless.

He has refused to comment in public about the case since the second day after Maddie vanished.

COMMENT: Is that a criticism?

When no progress was made in the inquiry after three months, detectives from the Judicial Police invited specialists from Leicestershire to fly out to review the case. Maddie's parents, doctors Gerry and Kate, are from Rothley in the county.

COMMENT: So they asked for extra outside help. A common decision in difficult investigations

The British team included a forensics expert and a Crackerstyle criminal profiler.

Within days they found specks of blood on the walls and curtains of the holiday apartment where Maddie had been left sleeping.

COMMENT: Fact? If so, pretty damning for the McCanns if it was Madeleine’s blood

The potentially-crucial evidence, missed by Portuguese police, has now been analysed in a British lab.

COMMENT: If they missed that the first time round, I fully concede that that was a serious failure

Preliminary findings show the blood is that of a white European man - most likely one of the holidaymakers who moved in weeks after Maddie vanished.

COMMENT: Hmmm? A man whose blood is liberally sprinkled over the floor and curtains of the apartment. One wonders exactly what had been going on in that apartment

A full report is expected next week but experts say the blood sample is only 72 per cent accurate as it was contaminated with detergent used to clean the flat.

Despite the scientists' caution Portuguese police jumped the gun last weekend by announcing they had new clues and developments that pointed to Maddie being dead.

COMMENT: Who says they ‘jumped the gun’?

And police spokesman Olegario Sousa bragged: "Never has there been so much evidence collected in a crime scene by specialised teams.

COMMENT: He may yet be proved right

"Every single detail is being examined very carefully. We spent four days in the past week or two inside the apartment."

But the British police source said: "When he says 'We' I think he means Portuguese officers led by British experts.

"And if there was still so much evidence to be had you have to ask what could have been found in the first 24 hours."

COMMENT: A reasonable point.

The shambles piles more anguish on Kate and Gerry McCann who - 108 days on - are still praying for their daughter's return.

And the only official suspect or "arguido" in the case, estate agent Robert Murat, is still in limbo waiting to be cleared. He is banned from discussing the case.

PART TWO FOLLOWS

==============================================================

 

[Tony Bennett]

PART TWO. Here I reply to the list of 16 specific criticisms of the Portuguese police as listed in 'The People' article:

There was no lockdown

1 LOCAL police failed to "lock down" and seal off the Mark Warner Ocean Club resort immediately after Madeleine was reported missing at 10pm on May 3.


COMMENT: When were the police first informed Madeleine was missing? If Madeleine had been taken from the apartment at 9.15am, as the McCanns claim, she could have been 50 miles away an hour later


Her parents were certain that she had been snatched and told officers straight away.


But police, under "Inspector Clueless" Guilhermino Encarnacao, seemed convinced the tot had simply wandered off.


They did not set up roadblocks which just may have snared the abductors.


COMMENT: Well, how far away should those roadblocks have been set up?

House to house


2 COPS' failure to accept they had an abduction on their hands meant they did not launch an immediate search of nearby holiday flats and villas or question locals.
House-to-house enquiries started two days later and most of the 500 properties were not visited until after any kidnapper had been given ample time to flee.


COMMENT: Hmmm. “Cops' failure to accept they had an abduction on their hands”. Maybe that ‘failure’ was a good call?

Borders


3 BORDER officials should have been told of Maddie's disappearance without delay. A kidnapper could have driven to the Spanish frontier from Praia da Luz in less than an hour. But police only alerted staff at the border 12 hours later.


COMMENT: I am not sure that this is correct

Boat


4 COASTGUARDS and maritime police were not alerted for 14 hours. If cops thought Maddie had wandered off, a search of the nearby beach and sea should have been an obvious and vital move.


There is a also a marina less than 10 minutes' drive from the McCanns' flat, providing an escape route for an abductor. More than 10 boats left before maritime police were warned.

Description


5 THE first police appeal for a suspect did not come until 22 days after Maddie vanished.


Cops later said in Portuguese they were seeking a 170cms (5ft 7ins) man but muddled the conversion and said in English he was 5ft 10ins tall.


At one stage police were showing six different E-fit images to local people and one artist's impression was a simple outline said to be "like an egg with hair on."


COMMENT: The first appeal came from Gerry McCann himself, desperate to convince the world that there had been an abductor. He relied entirely on Jane Tanner’s description. It was extremely vague. Jane Tanner in the Panorama programme said ‘between my height (5’ 4”) and 6ft’. The Portuguese police setlled on 170cm to 175cm i.e. between 5’ 7” and 5 ’9”. Gerry McCann made a mountain out of the molehill of this 1” or 2” discrepance at the media conference in Edinburgh in August, at which he ws a guest speaker.

Cuddle Cat 'clue'


6 MUM Kate McCann was convinced Maddie had not just wandered off because the tot's favourite soft toy Cuddle Cat was still in the room where she slept with twins Sean and Amelie, two.


Police did not take the toy for forensic tests even though an abductor may have touched it.


Kate was seen clutching it 24 hours later at a press conference and has since washed it as it was dirty and covered in suntan lotion.


British experts say Cuddle Cat should have been sealed in a plastic bag then tested.


COMMENT: I would agree with that observation.


The most minute drop of sweat or a single skin cell could have revealed the DNA of Madeleine's kidnapper.

Searches


7 A MASSIVE search party should have been organised by police at first light the morning after Maddie disappeared. Instead just 150 police took part in the first searches and they were poorly organised and random.


COMMENT: “Only 150”?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PART 3 FOLLOWS

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[Tony Bennett]

FINAL PART - Critcisms of the PJ Nos. 8 to 16 in 'The People' article analysed:

Holidaymakers
8 A FULL list of other guests at the Ocean Club resort ought to have been compiled by police with the help of staff within hours of the tot's disappearance.

But they did not get the information until almost 48 hours later - and a day AFTER many potential witnesses had returned home at the end of their holidays. Staff were only quizzed 60 hours later.

COMMENT: What were the police to do? Order everyone at the Ocean Club resort to delay their flights until there were enough police offciers to interview all of them?

Appeal
9 A DIRECT appeal to the abductor is usually considered vital in the first hours of a kidnapping. Police seek advice from psychologists to carefully word any plea. But it was Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate who made the public appeal themselves.

There was not even a Portuguese police officer at the couple's press conference.

COMMENT: Because by that time the police knew that Madeleine had not been abducted.

Stranger's DNA found
10 DETECTIVES revealed on June 1 that they had found the DNA of a stranger in the McCanns' apartment.

But they could not check if it was from a known paedophile as Portugal does not have a computerised DNA database of perverts.

COMMENT: Hmmm. By all accounts, pro-rata there are are a lot more &#8216;perverts&#8217; in the U.K. than in Portugal. And if the abductor had not been Portuguese, then how would a Portuguese database have helped?

The DNA did not match the profile of suspect Robert Murat.

Forensics
11 THE area immediately surrounding the McCanns' holiday apartment was never properly sealed off by police - even though vital clues are often discovered at such a scene.

People were allowed to walk on the flat's front porch 24 hours after Maddie disappeared. There were no fingertip searches and police sniffer dogs were not brought in until large crowds had gathered in the area, confusing any valuable scent. Mark Williams-Thomas, a highly experienced former British detective who travelled to the resort, called it "the worst preserved crime scene I have ever seen".

The original searches did not find the blood in Madeleine's bedroom and her parents' room.

Specialist sniffer dogs and ultra-violet lights were not used. Staggeringly, police gave the go-ahead for the flat to be occupied again although enquiries were continuing.

COMMENT: The TV pictures clearly show the police in control of the crime scene during the morning of 4 May, with police tape all round the property. What they did and didn&#8217;t do having occupied the crime scene does seem open to question if these unnamed British detectives are right. I am not sure on what basis Mark Williams-Thomas made his comments.

And by the time the British team checked the apartment it had already been thoroughly cleaned.

Pyjamas
12 DETAILS of the pyjamas Maddie was wearing should have been released straight away.

Anyone who saw her would probably have recalled the distinctive pink Eeyore nightwear.

COMMENT: Though Jane Tanner didn&#8217;t remember seeing the pjyamas until, several months later, she had been helped to recollect more fully by a process known ase &#8216;cognitive thrapy&#8217;. Then - hey presto! - she managed to recollect the pink pyjamas!

But officers repeatedly refused to issue a description and it was left to her parents to give details an astonishing four days later.

COMMENT: See above

CCTV
13 IMAGES from CCTV cameras on the main A22 motorway leading out of Praia da Luz towards Spain were not checked.

COMMENT: Have the PJ admitted that?

Robert Murat
14 SUSPECT Robert Murat's home was raided by police who seized his computers.

When they found names and four-digit numbers on a spreadsheet they were convinced they had unearthed "encrypted codes for a paedophile ring."

But the list was simply a family tree giving the names and birth dates of the estate agent's relatives.

COMMENT: So, they seized his computer, thought there might be something incriminating on it, then decided there wasn&#8217;t. What precisely is wrong about that?

Portuguese police bungled their search of Murat's garden.

They did not clear bushes and shrubs - British officers later ordered gardeners to hack away the undergrowth.

They then made a thorough search and inserted probes into the ground to seek any trace of human remains.

Portuguese officers also searched a guest house run by Murat's aunt in nearby Burgao.

They hacked at the concrete-hard ground with picks until it dawned on them that the area had not been disturbed in years.

COMMENT: So, the grounds and gardens of both houses were - eventually -
thoroughly searched for human remais - with no result. The PJ called in expert help when they needed it. Again, it looks like they were doing their job competently, carefully - and thoroughly.

Baby seat
15 COPS last week said they were looking at a new suspect - a British man who returned a hire car to Faro airport two days after Maddie vanished.

The vehicle had a child seat in the back but no child. Car rental staff alerted police, whose interest was fired when they found the customers were James and Charlotte Gorrod - who had been on holiday in Praia da Luz and knew friends of the McCanns.

But the innocent couple were never questioned. The hire firm had failed to notice the Gorrods had their two-year-old son with them all along. But police leaked word of a "new lead" to Portuguese reporters.

COMMENT: A storm in a tea-cup, then

Psychics
16 DETECTIVES wasted time following up tip-offs from psychics and cranks.

COMMENT: The McCanns were widely reported to have had conversations with
psychics and considered using them. It must be conceded that such people have occasionally come up with useful leads

Two weeks after Maddie vanished a local medium claimed she had "zoned-in" on map co-ordinates pinpointing a well in which Maddie was being hidden. She said the little girl was still alive.

Cops threw a stone down the well to test the bizarre tip-off - without thinking of the injury to Maddie if she had been there.

COMMENT: Did they? How do we know for sure?

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[april4sky]

Well Mr Bennett, I have neither the energy, the desire nor the inclination to work through your many posts.
IMO most of what you say is just your opinion, theories, even rumour and speculation.

You asked "which detective said" at one point while in your next comment said "I think" the forensics would have been done.

IMO that says a lot.

We are obviously worlds apart in our beliefs and opinions.

Hopefully time will tell which of us is right.