Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23

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  • #161
See: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2343541&postcount=302

Suspicion – PJ Investigators do not believe in abduction

Archived with a homicide stamp

The process awaits evidence to accuse, but Public Ministry maintains catalogue of violent crime and concealment of cadaver

The process about the disappearance of Maddie is recoiling into the archives of the Portimão Courthouse for now, through a decision from the Public Ministry, but it will remain classed by the appointed prosecutor, Magalhães e Menezes, as a case of qualified homicide and concealment of cadaver. Although the McCanns lose their arguido status, the archiving does not erase the PJ’s suspicions against the couple.
 
  • #162
"........................Neither the PJ nor the Public Ministry have requested the hearing of the Irishman who, in his first witness statement, early September last year, guaranteed to the PJ that he saw Gerry carry a child away in his arms on the evening of the disappearance, having clarified that he only remembered who it actually was after he saw on television how the missing child’s father carried Sean, one of her siblings, when they arrived at Birmingham airport.

The problem was that the hearing of this witness and of his family was requested to the English authorities, not the Irish. “It’s a mistake that may have cost the investigation dearly”, a source at the Public Ministry in Portimão admitted...................."


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=13

PJ really did mess up!
 
  • #163
  • #164
"........................Neither the PJ nor the Public Ministry have requested the hearing of the Irishman who, in his first witness statement, early September last year, guaranteed to the PJ that he saw Gerry carry a child away in his arms on the evening of the disappearance, having clarified that he only remembered who it actually was after he saw on television how the missing child’s father carried Sean, one of her siblings, when they arrived at Birmingham airport.

The problem was that the hearing of this witness and of his family was requested to the English authorities, not the Irish. “It’s a mistake that may have cost the investigation dearly”, a source at the Public Ministry in Portimão admitted...................."


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=13

PJ really did mess up!

But why wouldn't they be able to get his statement right now?? I don't understand...
 
  • #165
But why wouldn't they be able to get his statement right now?? I don't understand...


I don't understand that either, surely they can now write to the Irish authorities? There must be some law that says they can only do it once, how very tragic!
 
  • #166
I don't understand that either, surely they can now write to the Irish authorities? There must be some law that says they can only do it once, how very tragic!

Consider this B, one of our friends over in the Proboards site thinks that the whole story may be completely false. We have heard that the Irishman saw "a man" that night carrying a child but I have never heard that he was positive that it was GM.

Considering the fact that the PJ took a statement from this man in September it does not make sense that his statement would be useless now. I guess we will find out more when the files are released, eh?

My faith in the PJ remains intact.
 
  • #167
Consider this B, one of our friends over in the Proboards site thinks that the whole story may be completely false. We have heard that the Irishman saw "a man" that night carrying a child but I have never heard that he was positive that it was GM.

Considering the fact that the PJ took a statement from this man in September it does not make sense that his statement would be useless now. I guess we will find out more when the files are released, eh?

My faith in the PJ remains intact.

Yes Colomon, I heard the story way back also but didn't know there was a positive ID of Gerry until today so I guess it may not be true.
I cannot understand either why the original statement couldn't be used now!

I am just really disappointed today that there may be a chance that this pair will get away with whatever they did to this little girl! I hope your faith in PJ is well placed & they will come through!
 
  • #168
I think it may be unwise to rely on what is thought to have been recalled by an Irishman who has just finished having a few drinks at, what was it, 'Murphy's Bar'?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  • #169
From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2344706&postcount=303

Speaking of Archival is "absolutely premature"

The Attorney General , Pinto Monteiro, emphasized that "there is no archival", much less is the PJ report concluded that "is (still) going to be analyzed and studied"

The Attorney General today considered it "absolutely premature" for someone to say, at this time, that the so-called Maddie case will be archived, [referring to] the British girl missing from the Algarve May 3, 2007.

<continues>
 
  • #170
I think it may be unwise to rely on what is thought to have been recalled by an Irishman who has just finished having a few drinks at, what was it, 'Murphy's Bar'?

Good point Tony.
 
  • #171
IIRC, that Irishman did see a man and he said the man was NOT Murat. Apparently, the Irishman and his family know Murat. Also, IIRC, the Irish family goes often to Portugal often and have had dealings with Murat. I don't remember any mention that the man might have been Gerry - just that "I know Murat and it was not Murat, if it would have been him, we would have talked to him."

This archival thing is annoying. I'm not giving up until we see some OFFICIAL action.

Salem
 
  • #172
IIRC, that Irishman did see a man and he said the man was NOT Murat. Apparently, the Irishman and his family know Murat. Also, IIRC, the Irish family goes often to Portugal often and have had dealings with Murat. I don't remember any mention that the man might have been Gerry - just that "I know Murat and it was not Murat, if it would have been him, we would have talked to him."

This archival thing is annoying. I'm not giving up until we see some OFFICIAL action.

Salem

It strikes me as significant that the Irishman a) positively said it was not Murat and b) perhaps said he could not rule out it was Gerry McCann. Murat is a rather distinctive individual, so he could rule him out--but not Gerry.

Just a thought.

I'll wait for official action, too.
 
  • #173
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co....tentPK=20997812&folderPk=77465&pNodeId=132393

Neighbours and well-wishers have rallied around in support of Madeleine McCann's parents following reports that the Portuguese police investigation into her disappearance would be dropped.

However, the country's attorney general has stressed that no decision has yet been taken.

Garry Taylor, who works in Rothley, said: "This whole case is tragic and for the parents to be put under suspicion was absolutely appalling.

"If the police have closed the case the question is, what is the next step? How do they move on and try to find her now?"

Rothley resident Frank Luce said: "It would appear that they (the Portuguese police) have reached the end of what they think they can do, but they haven't really had a clue all along, if we're honest.

"What will happen now, apart from what Gerry and Kate will obviously be doing to find her?"
 
  • #174
Well that's it then. I mean Frank Luce, Rothley resident, is an expert regarding the Portuguese Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria isn't he?

OK.....

Until those files are opened and we all have a chance to see what the PJ found I will sit quietly and reserve judgement.
 
  • #175
Well that's it then. I mean Frank Luce, Rothley resident, is an expert regarding the Portuguese Polícia Judiciária isn't he?

OK.....

Until those files are opened and we all have a chance to see what the PJ found I will sit quietly and reserve judgement.
Did the article say he was an expert?
I thought he was someone who cares and voiced his opinion. To which he is entitled.
And IMO is right. :)

To me reserving judgement is waiting for confirmation the PJ actually have evidence that Madeleine is dead as well as evidence the McCanns killed her.
 
  • #176
With thanks to ismellarat, posting on the Proboards site (with a reminder that this is an amateur translation and only part of the article):

Now for a bit of balance..here is a report from the 02. May 2008
A day before the anniversary of course
From a respected German daily (even if they get the &#8216;hotel-room&#8217;
wrong and describe Leicester as a small town)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/artikel/65/172555/

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/?board=general&action=display&thread=1143&page=19 Post #281

I translated a couple of snippets:

Quote

When even the last trace gets blown away

The case continues to throw up mysteries, but in Rothley, a year after the disappearance of Maddie McCann, there are no reminders of her. The villagers moreover react to the parents with irritation.

There are no reminders of Madeleine McCann here in Rothley where she lived with her parents.

A year after the then 3-year old disappeared out of a hotel room (sic)
In Praia da Luz, Portugal the 3500 inhabitants of the non-descript little village, north of the central-English small town (sic) of Leicester have returned to everyday life.Even on the notice board of the village hall, there is not one poster calling for donations for the Madeleine fund, instead the board advertises a beer-festival and an accordion duo

&#8216;They (McCanns) keep themselves to themselves, you don&#8217;t see them
often in the village&#8217;, remarks Philip Dayman, who runs the newsagents
and he does not sound like he regrets it.

Because now, he admits, just like Liz from the vicarage they are expecting
with trepidation (ISAR: literally the German word means belly-ache) the first anniversary of the disappearance of Madeleine on the 3rd of May. On this day 4 Christian churches in Rothley want to conduct another ecumenical service of remembrance&#8230;as they did 6 months ago. At the last service the police had some trouble to control media representatives..who showered the McCanns with a barrage of flash-photography. Some not so pretty scenes had happenend back then-scenes that the village had not forgotten

&#8216;If we wanted to live amongst celebrities, then we would live in Kensington
or Chelsea, (comment ISAR-posh parts of London) wouldn&#8217;t we&#8217;, the old
woman from the farm shop, yonder on the access road to the village snaps.
No she will not even give her first name, but she stands by what she has just said. Celebrities do not belong in a place like Rothley.

But is this accusation not screamingly unjust ? Gerry and Kate have not chosen their status as media-objects. And they pay with for this status with the most painful loss that can befall parents: the loss of their child and the uncertainty of what happened to that child.

But one can not think so simplistically. The McCanns knew exactly what they were doing when they did not shy from the public, but used the public
Their, the McCann&#8217;s purposes.

With a mixture of unshakeable will-power, solid faith, and an unexpected talent for, what the experts call &#8216;news management&#8217;..they achieved the attention of the media&#8230;for weeks, months, a whole year long.

Unquote
 
  • #177
I brought this entire post over from the Portuguese Press thread:

Report: Month-long Tests Only yielded Maternal Family Lineage

Kates DNA Frames PJ


The existence of Madeleine's hairs in the boot of the car rented by the parents three weeks after the crime, near the substitute tyre, it&#8217;s considered as highly probable by the PJ. But the investigation was not able to prove that those traces belonged to the child: the hairs have no root ends, the CM established, and the final report of the laboratory of Birmingham &#8211; of the DNA mitochondrial tests - only guarantee that someone of Kate's lineage was inside the boot of the car.

The Renault Sc&#233;nic, remember, was rented by the McCanns three weeks after the disappearance of their oldest daughter. Therefore, any evidence that could prove her presence in the car would tie the parents to the crime. The simple detail of the hairs found in the boot having no root ends, where the nucleus of the cell is, does the whole difference. Because if they had [root ends], "the nuclear analysis in any world laboratory would give 99,9 per cent of hypotheses of a hair to belong to a determined person", advanced a specialist to the CM. In this case, of Maddie.

The experts as such were obliged to resort to the mitochondrial analyses, which can only give certainties of the hairs belonging to a motherly lineage: Kate or one of her three children.

The Judiciary Police use of the sophisticated technology of Birmingham&#8217;s Laboratory had to do with the minuscule dimensions of the stains in the walls of the couple&#8217;s apartment and in the car. The Low Copy Number technique enlarged in million times the DNA chain, but, from then on, the cellular matter revealed signs of different persons. Indistinguishable [persons].

Source: Correio da Manh&#227; (http://www.correiodamanha.pt/notici...hannelid=00000010-0000-0000-0000-000000000010)

Copied from: http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17232

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In addition: (from http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/report-months-of-tests-only-gave.html)

An explanation in layman's terms about Mitocondrial DNA by Chrish

A normal cell carries two types of DNA - some in the nucleus which essentially describes the person, and this is made up of the father's nuclear DNA from the sperm and the mothers nuclear DNA from the nucleus of the egg. This is what they try to use to match the cells - and of course the nucleus needs to be there and intact for a full match. This DNA profile is unique to an individual.

ei_0090.jpg


The second type of DNA is called mitochondrial DNA. This does not live in the nucleus but is in the cell in a part called the Mitochondria. This is used as the powerhouse of the cell, it keeps the cell going and generates a lot of the proteins etc.


This DNA does not come from the father - there is no room in the sperm for it - it all comes from the mother as part of the egg. It has been used to examine lineage over long periods of time but only relates to the female lineage (so even a male has only female mitochondrial DNA).

I'm guessing the next bit:

The hairs would only yield the mitochondrial DNA because as the hair is produced the nuclear DNA is destroyed, somehow the mitochondrial survives. Only a full, live cell such as the hair follicle would yield the nuclear DNA.
 
  • #178
With thanks to ismellarat, posting on the Proboards site (with a reminder that this is an amateur translation and only part of the article):

Now for a bit of balance..here is a report from the 02. May 2008
A day before the anniversary of course
From a respected German daily (even if they get the ‘hotel-room’
wrong and describe Leicester as a small town)
Not much balance here Colomom IMO.
The remarks from Phillip Dayman.....
‘They (McCanns) keep themselves to themselves, you don’t see them
often in the village...."he does not sound like he regrets it"....
.....highlight is the authors opinion only.

And as the press were camped in the village for some time it's no surprise if McCanns were not often seen.

The comment about "celebrities" ....well it seems the author is unable to put a name to this supposed comment.

No surprise then that the author failed to get the facts right regarding hotel room/small town.
 
  • #179
Hi Everyone ;}

It has been a rough few days, a bit of a bumpy ride for all of us here who hold fast to the reality that there must be Justice for Madeleine. Nothing should be allowed to keep the truth from being known to the world, who have cared for her so much since she's been gone. It needs to be heard by all.

When I feel desperate about this, and things are looking somewhat ordained by political forces, I turn on Spudgun's, The REAL Story of Madeleine McCann:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q


It always recenters me in the case. And when suddenly, out of the blue, we see this happy and innocent little wisp of a girl shining back at us with all of her pluck and personality, I always feel a tear start up in my eyes:

madeleineDM0709_468x754.jpg



Everytime I see that picture of Madeleine I think of our Floh. I studied the case with her all last summer and into the Fall, then Winter, and was always amazed and refreshed by her outlook on the case, and what had happened to Madeleine.

Thinking back, it is so easy to judge when we are heartfelt and passionate in our thoughts about something.

But Floh was always the one poster who believed with fortitude in all that which is good, that Madeleine would be found alive someday. And yet she would be the first to look at a new angle, read the reports of Eddie and Keela and in her heart know they back each other up, and so are never wrong when they alert.

She might have distrusted the parents, as they showed none of the normal signs of having a child lost to the world, never showing agony nor grief and too easily placated by the finer things in life, like meeting the Pope and paying their mortgage with the fund rather than actually going out and looking for their lost daughter. But Floh could never believe they hid her dead body, then perpitrated a fraudulant fund, as she just had to still be alive and out there, waiting to be found.

There you have it. I applaud her as a poster. She is among the best of Sleuthers I have read. When she attacks an issue she shows her heart, even while realizing that the truth might bite back when it becomes known.


She is not alone out there in the World of Forumdom. Webleuths is plump full of posters who approach a case just as Floh does. She is just one I have lived the case with, morning, noon and night, trying to find the pieces to fit into the puzzle. Floh never gave up.

We will never forget Madeleine. xox Scandi




'fADO PORTUGUES' sung by Dulce Pontes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui2zIM8FWS4&feature=related
 
  • #180
Gon&#231;alo Amaral in an interview to Expresso

37911130my7.jpg


&#8220;Since the day that I left I knew the process would be archived&#8221;

The former inspector reveals some secrets from the investigation into the Maddie case. He guarantees that the process contains evidence, not personal convictions, and he reveals that Paulo Rebelo, his successor, never contacted him to talk about the case. When asked about what he would say to Gerry and Kate McCann, today, he replied: &#8220;I&#8217;m worried about the girl, not the parents&#8221;.

Your name and your career will remain connected to the Maddie case forever?

I&#8217;m not worried about that. I have always worked in a team, with the preoccupation and the goal of reaching the discovery of the truth. No policeman likes to leave a case halfway through.

Was that what happened with this investigation? Is it left halfway through?

Not according to my will.

Have you agreed with the decision of the former director of the PJ, who removed you from the case?

No. It&#8217;s an unfair and dangerous decision. I was not removed from the investigation due to incompetence. I left because of the direction that the investigation was taking. But the strategy was not decided by me only. It was everyone. It involved the English police and other Portuguese policemen. And what was being investigated, was the little girl&#8217;s death, even an accidental one.

After you left, was that course maintained?

I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;m very na&#239;f and I want to believe that my exit from Portim&#227;o had the purpose of advancing the investigation, because the person that took over is much more efficient.

Do you believe that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment on the evening of the 3rd of May?

Yes. That is what I and other persons believe in. And this is not because we idealized it that way.

Is there evidence to sustain that thesis?

I can&#8217;t enter any details of the process. I will only say this: I am certain that I, and the persons who worked with me, did a good job and I doubt that anyone else could do better. Some day, people will see the process, they may agree or not, but there is nothing in there that questions my professionalism.

Was the investigation&#8217;s direction, homicide, disturbing the political power?

This case was more political than a police case.

Did any politician pressure you?

I was not pressured, I was removed.

If there was a homicide, where is the body?

That was what we were going to establish next. On the day that I was removed, I was carrying out diligences for a fundamental witness to come to Portugal. It was necessary for the PJ to pay for the trip, to arrange for lodging, and that was being taken care of. But then the important witness never came to Portugal and was never heard.

But why? Why was an exception opened? The English police was used by the McCanns to send the PJ information that often was nothing but noise?

Yes. And the fact that the couple had a press advisor, is a figure that is not even foreseen in the penal process code. In some way, we were all influenced by the campaign that was built, which said that the child is alive and must be found. I don&#8217;t say that the English police was being ordered around by the McCanns, but it was influenced, like we all were. The PJ should have found a way to protect the investigators from everything else.

That is strange: you say that it was established with the English police that the direction that should be followed was the little girl&#8217;s death, that there were enough indices, but there seems to have been an inflexion.

Yes. And I was removed. I don&#8217;t know whether there is a direct connection. I know that colleagues from the investigation have requested the police&#8217;s directory for a syndication, to see whether the work was badly done. Whether mistakes were made.

Do you believe that you reached the truth?

I am convinced that we were on the right path and that we might end up knowing everything or not, but a great part. Now, that which we have collected and which we consider to be indices, may not be valued in the same manner.

One of the criticisms is that the results from the months when you were leading the investigation are lots of convictions and zero evidence. Do you agree?

I was the coordinator of the investigation from 3 May to 2 October. Five months. After me, there came other people that have been there nine months. I am not comparing, but we were professional and I&#8217;m not ashamed of anything. And when the process is public you will see if it is true that there is nothing. There are indications and they are in the files. We did hundreds of interviews and searches. Thousands of diligences and from that there are no results? The little girl went up in smoke?

Did the theory of the death of the child continue to be followed after your exit?

I don&#8217;t know. I can say that ever since that day I knew the process would be archived.

That being so, is there still a death to be resolved?

There is. And diligences to be completed.

Who made the decision to constitute the McCann&#8217;s arguidos?

Everyone. And the national director was informed of all the decisions.

Al&#237;pio Ribeiro agreed with the decision?

Exactly.

But then he ended up saying that the decision was hasty.

Hasty? Four months later? When there were concrete diligences that reinforced some of the indications? While we waited for results of various tests? And beyond that, in our law there exists the principal of no self-incrimination. A person can&#8217;t continue speaking forever as a witness and providing evidence (&#8220;indications&#8221;). There is certainly a stigma in the arguido status, but I don&#8217;t know what is worse. They were made arguidos, this was public, for simulating a crime and hiding a cadaver.

Do you think that you made any mistakes?

I made one. The error of the first hour. There are things about which I still can not speak. But we know that there are things which could have been done in another way. No one should be shocked if we begin, immediately, to wonder if the parents were involved.

After leaving the investigation, did you ever speak with your successor, Paulo Rebelo?

No. It is an interesting question to consider. If they removed me for the barbarity of speaking to the press, and not for incompetence, it would be normal to be consulted. But this never happened.

If, as all seems to indicate, the case is archived, the public is going to hold the Portuguese police responsible. How will you react?

Archival is not a declaration of innocence. A process can be archived and reopened. The archival of this case could be the declaration of some incapacity of the police, or it could have a different meaning.

What would you say to Madeleine&#8217;s parents?

I have nothing to say. My overriding preoccupation is with the little girl, not the parents.

Translation by Summer and Debk
Source: Expresso

 
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