Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 24

[Texana]

For all those who have questioned abandonment charges.

From the report....Prosecuter Mr Magalhaes explains his decision.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

In their 58 page report, prosecutors Jose de Magalhaes and Joao Melchior Gomes said:

Mr Magalhaes defended the McCanns' decision to leave their children alone in the apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

There was speculation that the couple may be charged with "abandonment", which can incur a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

But he said Mr and Mrs McCann had not thought their children were in any danger when they left Madeleine and her younger twin siblings.

"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," he wrote.

"They could not predict that the resort where they had chosen to spend a few days holiday would leave the lives of any of their children in danger.
"It was located in a quiet place, where the majority of residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of crime.

"It seems obvious to us that the crimes of exposure or abandonment can be
eliminated."

Mr Magalhaes said all the theories – including the possibility that the couple had accidentally killed their daughter and disposed of her body – had come to nothing.

"While it is a fact that Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club apartment, the circumstances and manner of how this happened is not known."
******

Regardless of what we feel about it....Baby listening is legal in Europe.

And the PJ new this all along!!

April, could you consider using block cut/paste and then respond separately? The multiple fonts and choppiness of this makes it difficult to follow your point. (s)

 

[april4sky]

Back up April, I never said I was the only one who believed in God.

Regarding your "rebuttal", you are very good at cut and paste....do you have a personal opinion?? An opinion of more than two sentences? Your "rebuttal" is anything but "clear".

Your truth is not necessarily everyone's truth. Stop trying to force your truth down the board's throat. You are welcome to post your opinion but sometimes you come across as arrogant. Try a little sensitivity.

I never said you did. :waitasec:

And the rebuttal articles couldn't have been clearer...Yes they were cut and pasted...Nothing wrong with that....It showed I didn't misrepresent either statement.

I also gave my opinion...which I am entitled to do.

I'm well aware we all have different opinions, and are all entitled to them.

But you did ask for the rebuttal Colomom. :waitasec:

 

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~

"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," he wrote.

Regardless of what we feel about it....Baby listening is legal in Europe.

And the PJ new this all along!!

And therein lies the frustration. Does any parent that leaves their child alone intend for there to be a fire? a robbery? a fall? a drinking of poison? But does common sense tell you that if you leave 3 children under the age of 3 alone, one of these things is likely to happen?

Okay - they got off for now. But again, I say and I think, that in the end Justice for Maddie will be done, because there is no escaping Karma. All we can do now is wait and see. All of these excuses, etc. about what was legal and what was not will not erase the fact that the McCanns acted irresponsibly when they left these babies alone. And in my opinion, that fact is compounded by the fact that these parents are educated in the many ills that befall children and compounded further by the fact that they left their children alone after they were told of the distress the children felt when they discovered that no one was coming for them when they cried.

Legal - yes, responsible - no, compassionate - no, caring - no, loving - no. So legally they get off, morally they are guilty as ?@*!

Just my opinion,

Salem

 

[Salem]

All you guys - I love you all. On both sides of the equation! But the bottom line is that all this back and forth doesn't do us much good. And at this point, it is just rubbing salt in the wound. There is high frustration here, because we all know that what the McCanns did was not indicative of responsible parenting. We all know that just about anywhere else, with a little less money, the McCanns would have been charged with neglect and abandonment.

Some of us are further frustrated with the European law and its allowance of this "baby-listening" thing and even more frustrated with the parents that would use such methods to keep their children "safe." Especially with parents who should know better than others how dangerous it is to leave children unattended. We are even further frustrated by all the discrepancies in this case that cannot be tied up.

The facts remain - that the dogs hit on both blood and cadaver scent. Jane Tanner lied, which is highly evident from her map. (If anyone wants to dispute that, they will have to show me on the map that Jane Tanner made, how she got past Gerry & Jeremy.) Maddie is still missing. Most of all, Maddie is still missing. The parents left the children alone.

I believe the PJ know what happened, but lack the evidence to prove it.

I also predict that the McCanns will now fade into the background and go about their lives, but they will be haunted by Maddie and they will worry everytime an anniversity article is done or someone submits a new tip to the PJ. Eventually the story will come out. If the Tapas 7 really helped with this, one of them is likely to talk after their hair starts falling out due to stress.

Salem

 

[Barnaby]

Here you are Barnaby....

Thanks Colomon

 

[april4sky]

Respectfully snipped ~

And therein lies the frustration. Does any parent that leaves their child alone intend for there to be a fire? a robbery? a fall? a drinking of poison? But does common sense tell you that if you leave 3 children under the age of 3 alone, one of these things is likely to happen?

Okay - they got off for now. But again, I say and I think, that in the end Justice for Maddie will be done, because there is no escaping Karma. All we can do now is wait and see. All of these excuses, etc. about what was legal and what was not will not erase the fact that the McCanns acted irresponsibly when they left these babies alone. And in my opinion, that fact is compounded by the fact that these parents are educated in the many ills that befall children and compounded further by the fact that they left their children alone after they were told of the distress the children felt when they discovered that no one was coming for them when they cried.

Legal - yes, responsible - no, compassionate - no, caring - no, loving - no. So legally they get off, morally they are guilty as ?@*!

Just my opinion,

Salem

Believe me Salem I do understand your frustration. :blowkiss:
Even though I see things differently.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Hey April, what area of Australia are you from? It's almost 2 o'clock in the morning in central Australia. Aren't you tired? Don't you have to get up and go to work in the morning?

 

[Texana]

This proves my point exactly about the British media:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041685/Revealed-The-Maddie-e-fits-public-saw.html

"The man walked across the top of the road - from point 5 to point 8 - as she approached him, the map makes clear.

And all the while Mr McCann was obliviously standing chatting to Jeremy Wilkins, a friend he had made on the holiday, further down the road - marked 3 on the drawing.

The pair did not even notice Ms Tanner as she walked past them from the tapas
restaurant."

This is complete speculation on the part of the writer here. The fact: Neither Jeremy Wilkins nor Gerry McCann saw the "Bundleman" that night. The reason? The writer here offers up as fact: "McCann was obliviously chatting to Jeremy Wilkins, a friend he had made on holiday."

Where does the assurance that Gerry and Jeremy were oblivously chatting come from? Out of the reporter's head. It's pure speculation and completely unfounded, but it's stated as fact. Not even a hint of a qualifying "perhaps" or "maybe." No, it's stated that McCann was obliviously chatting to Wilkins. Two facts--McCann and Wilkins talked, they met on holiday--added seamlessly with a third assumption out of thin air--they were oblivious to the man walking by.

The evidence that the writer offers up that Jane's version of events is truthful? "The map makes clear." And who drew the map? Jane!

 

[colomom]

The questions asked of the Tapas 7

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/What-Detectives-Asked-the-Tapas-Seven/Article/200808115071404

1. How long have you known Gerald McCann and Kate Healy (Kate's maiden name) and in what capacity?

2. Have you seen Kate and Gerald at home with their children?

3. Have you been on holiday with them before? If yes can you describe how they looked after the children of an evening/night?

4.How often did you see Gerald and Kate during your holiday April 28 - May 3?

5. How often did you see their children: Madeleine, Sean and Amelie?

6. Did you have any concerns aobut the children in any way?

7. When was the last time you saw Madeleine?

8. On Thursday May 3 when did you see Kate and Gerald?

9. At what time did you arrive at the Tapas restaurant on May 3? Who was already there?

10. What were Kate and Gerald doing when you arrived?

11. Did you speak with Kate and Gerald?

12. How were they behaving?

13. Who left the table during the meal and to do what?

14. Did you see Gerald leave the table during the meal? At what time? How long was he away? What did he say when he came back? Was his behaviour or attitude different when he returned?

15. Did you see Jane leave the table during the meal? At what time? How long was she away? What did she say when she came back? Was her behaviour or attitude different when she returned?

16. Did you see Matthew leave the table during the meal? At what time? How long was he away? When did he say when he came back? Was his behaviour or attitude different when he returned?

17. Did you see Russell leave the table? At what time? How long was he away? What did he say when he came back? Was his behaviour or attitude different when he returned?

18. Did you see Kate leave the table during the meal? At what time? How long was she away? What did she say when he came back? How did she look and behave? Where you shocked at what she said? What did you do?

19. Did you go to the McCann apartment? Did you go into the bedroom where the children were sleeping? Can you describe what you saw? Did you see the twins? Did you notice anythin unusual about them?

20. What did you do next? Did you take part in any further searches? Who were you with?

21. How did Gerry react when Madeleine was not found in the first 10 minutes?

22. How do you think they were behaving considering Madeleine was gone?

23. What did you do between 10.30pm and 10am the next morning? Who did you see?

24. Who did you speak to?

25. When did you leave Portugal? How often did you see Kate and Gerry? How do you think Kate and Gerald were behaving for parents who had lost a child?

26.Did you see either Kate or Gerry speaking to anyone on holiday that you did not know?

27. Did you see either Kate or Gerald in a car during the holiday.

 

[colomom]

From: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/La...Madeleine McCann Case File&lpos=searchresults

When police raided the McCann's rented villa in Praia a Luz they seized a bible and press clippings showing an advert for children's drug Calpol and an article about the McCann's "wall of silence"

:: Between 1 and 8 of August Portuguese police used sniffer dogs, trained to find human blood as well as people, to search five apartments at the holiday complex; Robert Murat's property in Praia Da Luz; the McCanns' new occupancy at Praia Da Luz; clothing from the McCann residence; Western beach in Praia Da Luz; Eastern beach in Praia Da Luz; 10 vehicles screened at Portimao.

:: Of the five apartments, the only report came from apartment 5a, the reported scene. The report said the dog alerted the rear bedroom in the immediate right-hand corner; the living room, behind the sofa; the veranda outside the parents' bedroom; the garden area directly under the veranda.

:: Nothing was found in Robert Murat's apartment or the McCanns' new apartment.

:: The Enhanced Vicitm Recovery dog (EVRD) did indicate one set of clothing. The report's author, though, says there are no further details.

:: The EVRD indicated a "scent" emitting from the right door of the McCann's car. It was then subject to a "full and physical examination and "no human remains were found."

:: The dog used to smell human blood was then tasked to screen the vehicle and alerted police to the "rear driver's side of the boot area". Forensic samples were taken and sent to a laboratory in the UK.

:: People from countries including Holland and Malta rang to inform police they had seen Madeleine. There was one "sighting" on a flight from New York to Brussels.

:: Sky News has also found an email in the police files that was sent to Gerry McCann from a man claiming to know what happened to Madeleine. Police tracked it down to the Netherlands and found a cyber cafe with no CCTV. He/she asks for 2 million EUROS as a reward for the information, asking for an advance of 500,000.

:: The files show efits of two men based on descriptions from witnesses at the time. The files were sent to Interpol. Crucially, they were not given to the media.

:: Receipt from the "Tapas nine's" meal on the evening show that there was only two bottles of wine drunk between them.

:: Sky News has found a CCTV photocopy of Repsol petrol station on 4 May 2007 (day after Maddy disappeared) were a child matching Madeleine's description was spotted
Police have written "negativo" on it showing it wasn't Madeleine. There are several other pictures in different locations.

<continues>

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

:: Receipt from the "Tapas nine's" meal on the evening show that there was only two bottles of wine drunk between them

May I ask were this information came from? There is no reference or link.
Interesting that only 2 bottles show on the receipt, when Gerry confessed to several more in one of the interviews.

 

[colomom]

May I ask were this information came from? There is no reference or link.
Interesting that only 2 bottles show on the receipt, when Gerry confessed to several more in one of the interviews.

Ooppps....my bad.....

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/La...Madeleine McCann Case File&lpos=searchresults

 

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~

This proves my point exactly about the British media:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041685/Revealed-The-Maddie-e-fits-public-saw.html

"The man walked across the top of the road - from point 5 to point 8 - as she approached him, the map makes clear.

And all the while Mr McCann was obliviously standing chatting to Jeremy Wilkins, a friend he had made on the holiday, further down the road - marked 3 on the drawing.

The pair did not even notice Ms Tanner as she walked past them from the tapas restaurant."

There is no way Jane walked from point 7 (The Tapas) to Point 4 (me) on the same side of the street, directly past Point 3 (G&J) without having to walk around the 2 men. Illogical, didn't happen, not possible? How could they have not seen her? If she was walking from Tapas to Apts? Not possible. Can't happen. So.... either Jane was on the other side of the street or Jane was returning from the apts (consequently having her back to bundleman) or this is an out and out lie. And this is based on the MAP that JANE drew.

Salem

 

[Salem]

May I ask were this information came from? There is no reference or link.
Interesting that only 2 bottles show on the receipt, when Gerry confessed to several more in one of the interviews.

I agree - this is interesting and I wonder over the discrepancy. Could it be that the amount of wine drank this night was less than on other nights?

Also - this raises the question - it was reported that some of the Tapas 9 appeared to be a "little" impaired by alcohol (sorry no link) than was this "impairment" an act? I thought the PJ put Kate's spaciness and all the discrepancies in the stories down to alcohol consumption?

Interesting,

Salem

 

[Texana]

Respectfully snipped ~

There is no way Jane walked from point 7 (The Tapas) to Point 4 (me) on the same side of the street, directly past Point 3 (G&J) without having to walk around the 2 men. Illogical, didn't happen, not possible? How could they have not seen her? If she was walking from Tapas to Apts? Not possible. Can't happen. So.... either Jane was on the other side of the street or Jane was returning from the apts (consequently having her back to bundleman) or this is an out and out lie. And this is based on the MAP that JANE drew.

Salem

Right.

And worth noting there are two people that say they did not see Jane nor the "bundleman." Only one person, Jane herself, says she was there, and Jane is also the only person who saw Bundleman.

And Jane's account is the only outside verification other than Kate's immediate assumption that Madeleine had been taken because according to Kate "She wouldn't walk out."

 

[colomom]

The McCanns Files site has an extensive translation of GA's book.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html

See chapter 16

===== EXAMS ON VEHICLES =====

- 6 August, underground parking garage

- 10 vehicles examined which were used by Murat, Michaela, Malinka, Luís António, McCanns and one by Russell O'Brien

- 10 metres between cars to avoid contamination of smells between them

- Martin tells Eddie to start on exteriors, with all doors/windows tightly closed: intense sniffing of wheels, underneath, door jams, edges of boot. 1, 2, 3 cars. Nothing.

- 4th car. Eddie significantly alters his behaviour. Visibly more excited, he doesn't immediately approach the car as he did with the others. He raises his head and, with his nose in the air, sniffs incessantly around the car indicating that he is trying to find the source of that well-known odor and which he has been finding for years, which he had detected in the area and knows he is now going to find. Martin's voice commands him back to searching the car itself. Eddied provides yet another surprise in the case, barking strongly as he alerts to the existence of cadaver odor in the car rented by the McCanns.

- Precisely, Eddie alerts to:

---- the lower part of the driver's door
---- in the boot, where the dog was biting and barking, indicating the odour was coming from inside the car

The car was taken apart by forensic experts and around dawn, Keela finds vestiges of blood where Eddie signalled: the key and the luggage compartment

- As with the apartments, Eddie was uninterested in the other cars, not hesitating nor displaying behaviour similiar to the other vehicles, making his actions quite clear and precise.

- Gonçalo Amaral says he had already been removed from the team when he learned that one of the McCann's neighbors (at the second villa), a Portuguese jurist, says that in the nights leading up to the dog exams, the McCanns frequently left the baggage door open.

- One of Gerry's brother-in-laws later affirmed they used the car to transport garbage and that, once, some blood from beef spilled in the luggage area, thereby justifying the "strange" odor.

- One of Kate's aunts said that the car had unpleasant smells that she assumed came from the baby's diapers.

These justifications don't stand up to the English dogs. These dogs are exclusively trained to alert to human blood and cadaver odours. The hygiene habits of the users of this car do not even appear credible for the civilized people making up this group, which make the statements of these two, in the very least, bizarre.

 

[Barnaby]

May I ask were this information came from? There is no reference or link.
Interesting that only 2 bottles show on the receipt, when Gerry confessed to several more in one of the interviews.

IW don't forget they were on an all inclusive holiday that included drinks with dinner - bottles of wine so they probably drank all that was free then had to start paying. So if they were allowed one bottle of wine each with dinner then paid for 2 that is 11 bottles plus what they drank before dinner!

 

[colomom]

IW don't forget they were on an all inclusive holiday that included drinks with dinner - bottles of wine so they probably drank all that was free then had to start paying. So if they were allowed one bottle of wine each with dinner then paid for 2 that is 11 bottles plus what they drank before dinner!

Very good thinking B...you should be proud, you sleuth you.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

IW don't forget they were on an all inclusive holiday that included drinks with dinner - bottles of wine so they probably drank all that was free then had to start paying. So if they were allowed one bottle of wine each with dinner then paid for 2 that is 11 bottles plus what they drank before dinner!

Ohhh, well that makes sence. They could have had food and drink vouchers as part of their Holiday package. Though was anyone else shocked at how plain and cold the Villa was? I rather stay at the Marriott any day!

 

[colomom]

Ohhh, well that makes sence. They could have had food and drink vouchers as part of their Holiday package. Though was anyone else shocked at how plain and cold the Villa was? I rather stay at the Marriott any day!

Yes, plain, cold, separate beds, no room service, no maid service. For the prices they charge (just for an apartment, approx. $200 a night), not a good value, IMO.