Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 25

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  • #241
Can we take these points as facts?

1. Madeleine cried until late on night of May 2nd?

2. Madeleine's bed had not been slept in on the night of May 3rd leading us to believe that she was never even placed in it, sedated or otherwise?

Therefore if she died before the Tapas dinner on May 3rd as point 2 would appear to indicate, it was probably not due to sedation, imo!

If the child was very distressed & cried for several hours on the night of May 2nd, I think that she would have been "cried out" & exhausted & would probably have slept well after her parents returned. Even if sedation had been administered at that point, it would probably have done it's job as the child would have been so very tired so I do not think that she would have got up again that night to wander around, risking an accident. I am sure most here have experienced the exhaustion that comes after distress & crying.

I believe that Madeleine died by violence either late on the night of May 2nd (bad temper due to her crying having disturbed her parents' evening & embarrassed them) or sometime during the day of May 3rd.

The McCanns do not release anything that might make them look bad yet they admitted that Madeleine had asked why they didn't come when she was crying. I believe that Madeleine asked this on the night of May 2nd not the next morning & the only reason that they said it was to make people believe that she was alive on May 3rd. That very question may well have cost her her life, either parent, angry, embarrassed & very drunk may well have lashed out at what they would perceive to be her audacity in questioning their parenting!

REPLY: Barnaby, no, I don't think we can take your first point as fact at all. Madeleine crying on the night of 2nd/3rd May would fit my theory BUT Pamela Fenn's evidence surely was that the 75 minites' crying she heard (from 10.30pm to 11.45pm) was on Tuesday 1 May. Yes?

Fact 2 I go along with. She was never in that bed that night.

You wrote: "I believe that Madeleine died by violence either late on the night of May 2nd (bad temper due to her crying having disturbed her parent's evening & embarrassed them) or sometime during the day of May 3rd".

RESPONSE: A key problem I have with the 'act of violence' theory is why all the 'Tapas 9' seem to have rallied round to support the bogus abduction story and maintained their 'Pact of Silence'? Why, for goodness sake, if it was Kate or Gerry who lost their temper?

The notion that all the children were being given a strong sedative to make them sleep would however seem to bind the 'Tapas 9' together with a shameful secret they would all wish to hide.

I suppose it is also conceivable that there WAS an act of violence but that the McCanns told their 'Tapas' friends that she died from the sedatives.

I would add that for the McCanns to admit, as recently they have done, that Madeleine and Sean were crying on the night of 2nd/3rd May (as well as on 1 May as per Pamela Fenn), there must surely be a witness, possibly someone who we do not yet know of - who testifies to having heard the children crying on 2nd/3rd May.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN's suggestion that it was Sean and AMELIE who were crying that night (2nd/3rd), possibly because Madeleine was in serious trouble, is worthy of serious consideration

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  • #242
gord, thanks very much for your very prompt response. Did you notice this:

CATRIONA BAKER:

Point 5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 2.50pm and picked her up at 5.30pm.

STACEY P [NOTE: is this meant to be Charlotte Pennington? - it's not at all clear]:

Point 4. That it was the father, Gerald, who dropped them off at 2.30pm and that it was the mother, Kate, who came to fetch them at 5.30pm.

Do you back Catriona's version?

Or Stacey/Charlotte's?

Or are they both mistaken?

Or doesn't it really matter that much either way?

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  • #243
A creche worker would have noticed if one child was missing, even if Madeleine was in another group.
 
  • #244
gord, if you are kind enough to let us have your thoughts on my query in post 243, could you also shed light on this contradiction?

CATRIONA BAKER:

Point 3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10am. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her.

STACEY P/CHARLOTTE PENNINGTON:

Point 3: That the children were dropped off by their parents at 9.30am.

A 20-minute time difference and one witness saying they both brought Madeleine and the other contradicting that and saying it was only Kate.

How should we explain this?

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  • #245
gord, thanks very much for your very prompt response. Did you notice this:

CATRIONA BAKER:

Point 5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 2.50pm and picked her up at 5.30pm.

STACEY P [NOTE: is this meant to be Charlotte Pennington? - it's not at all clear]:

Point 4. That it was the father, Gerald, who dropped them off at 2.30pm and that it was the mother, Kate, who came to fetch them at 5.30pm.

Do you back Catriona's version?

Or Stacey/Charlotte's?

Or are they both mistaken?

Or doesn't it really matter that much either way?

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stacey P was looking after the twins in the creche next door - Cat B was mddies key worker - Stacey was talking about the twins being dropped off - quite simple Maddy was in the bigger kids section - pretty sure Stacey P is charlotte - so no need to choose between them - both correct

Cat B has been quite specific and consistent .

It easy to disect times and look at the minutae to discredit things - but again we have 3 seperate witnesses who all are on record at seeing Madeleine alive on the 3rd -
 
  • #246
gord, if you are kind enough to let us have your thoughts on my query in post 243, could you also shed light on this contradiction?

CATRIONA BAKER:

Point 3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10am. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her.

STACEY P/CHARLOTTE PENNINGTON:

Point 3: That the children were dropped off by their parents at 9.30am.

A 20-minute time difference and one witness saying they both brought Madeleine and the other contradicting that and saying it was only Kate.

How should we explain this?

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again Tony - Cat B was in a differenrt creche to Stacey P -

Cat B looking after Maddy

Stacey P looking after the twins

doesnt seem strange that they might have been dropped off at slightly different times

I only quoted the Stacey P statement as it was part of the detail that had been translated by enfant kidnap

I put the question back at you - do you think Cat B is lying ?
 
  • #247
Stacey P is not charlotte P - she is another nanny whom looked after the twins - sorry for the confusion

here is the quote to support that

We note that none of these young girls lives at the complex, but quite near and that Catriona B. was responsible for Madeleine during the day yesterday. Stacey P. was the staff member for the McCann twins. It is evident that it is always the same young woman who works with the same child. The latest arrivals in Portugal are Sarah W. and Charlotte Pennington who arrived last Saturday, April 28th 2007. The informant, responsible for coordination, split the children up between several young girls, taking care that each child was unknown to each young girl. The informant noticed nothing abnormal up to yesterday and that no one was absent from work except those who were on their day off.
 
  • #248
stacey P is Stacey Portz who worked in the baby ( twins club )

Just for the record here is Charlottes P statement

Pennigton just said to PJ she talked with Madeleine on the afternoon of May 3, because her working place, the "Baby Club" is next to the "Mini Club", the creche were Madeleine was. She does not say she went to A5 apartment, she was working the night shift (7:35/11:00 pm) with other colleagues, in the creche where parents could leave the kids, while having diner. After the alarm was raised, she called her supervisor and followed the Ocean Club instructions for the case of a missing child - went with other colleagues, looking around Ocean Club.

She helped with the search until 1:30 am May 4, then she went home. She said she never went to A5 apartment, just passed on the street behind it, near the car park, she saw a lot of people there, but no mention to seeing Kate and Gerry.

Statement given to PJ on May 7, 2007.
 
  • #249
gord, I respond to your question: "I put the question back at you - do you think Cat B is lying?" - I have also seen your two subsequent posts.

There has been so much to consider in the way of new evidence being released that I have not been able to fully analyse what the nannies say, which potentially provides proof that Madeleine was alive and seen by others at least until 5.30pm or beyond.

From what I have seen of Charlotte Pennington's statements so far, she has given different testimony on different occasions about what happened on 3rd May to the extent I would not rely on any statement of hers.

You quoted Charlotte Pennington as saying: "She said she never went to A5 apartment, just passed on the street behind it, near the car park, she saw a lot of people there..." But - please correct me if I am badly mistaken - did I not read elsewhere that she was the first on the scene in Apartment A5?

As to Catriona Baker's statements, I'll give you a short answer. Yes, I believe she may be lying about having seen Madeleine during 3rd May

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  • #250
gord: It easy to dissect times and look at the minutiae to discredit things - but again we have 3 seperate witnesses who all are on record at seeing Madeleine alive on the 3rd..."

REPLY: Bringing you back to my question:

One nanny says 'Mother brought her at 2.30pm'

The other says 'Father brought her at 2.50pm'.

Is that really just a tiny inconsistency that can be brushed aside?

Surely we are entitled to query who is right here?

If Madeleine was brought back to the kid's club, it was EITHER Kate OR Gerry.

Bringing her back at 2.50pm would have been 20 minutes 'late'. How come the other nanny didn't notice that?

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  • #251
gord, I respond to your question: "I put the question back at you - do you think Cat B is lying?" - I have also seen your two subsequent posts.

There has been so much to consider in the way of new evidence being released that I have not been able to fully analyse what the nannies say, which potentially provides proof that Madeleine was alive and seen by others at least until 5.30pm or beyond.

From what I have seen of Charlotte Pennington's statements so far, she has given different testimony on different occasions about what happened on 3rd May to the extent I would not rely on any statement of hers.

You quoted Charlotte Pennington as saying: "She said she never went to A5 apartment, just passed on the street behind it, near the car park, she saw a lot of people there..." But - please correct me if I am badly mistaken - did I not read elsewhere that she was the first on the scene in Apartment A5?

As to Catriona Baker's statements, I'll give you a short answer. Yes, I believe she may be lying about having seen Madeleine during 3rd May

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well Tony these are all official statemenst taken from the PJ DVD -

I dont know where you got Pennington being first on the scene from

I cannot for a miinute understand why a young girl like Cat B who had no contact with the Mcaans apart from look after their child would offer up such a bare face lie - not just one - but a whole catalogue of them .knowing that they could easily be found out by others . She was not the only nannie in the mini club and I bet you anything that there are other statements waiting to come out that place Maddy as being alive on the 3rd

why on earth would the girl lie ?? put her self in serious trouble - for what reason .?
 
  • #252
gord: It easy to dissect times and look at the minutiae to discredit things - but again we have 3 seperate witnesses who all are on record at seeing Madeleine alive on the 3rd..."

REPLY: Bringing you back to my question:

One nanny6 says 'Mother brought her at 2.30pm'

The other says 'Father brought her at 2.50pm'.

Is that really just a tiny inconsistency that can be brushed aside?

Surely we are entitled to query who is right here?

If Madeleine was brought back to the kid's club, it was EITHER Kate OR Gerry.

Bringing her back at 2.50pm would have been 20 minutes 'late'. How come the other nanny didn't notice that?

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Tony did you read my original answer

The twins and Maddie were at seperate crechss - Stacey P looked after the twins - Cat B looked after Maddie

It seems quite resonable that Maddie would dropped off by Gerry first - as the twins would take longer to get ready etc . He then returns and they both drop of tje twins 20 minutes later
 
  • #253
Well Tony these are all official statements taken from the PJ DVD - I don't know where you got Pennington being first on the scene from. I cannot for a minute understand why a young girl like Cat B who had no contact with the McCanns apart from looking after their child would offer up such a bare face lie - not just one - but a whole catalogue of them, knowing that they could easily be found out by others. She was not the only nanny in the mini club and I bet you anything that there are other statements waiting to come out that place Maddy as being alive on the 3rd. Why on earth would the girl lie? -put herself in serious trouble - for what reason?

REPLY: You said: "Catriona Baker had no contact with the McCanns apart from looking after their child..."

But that's not true, is it? - see this recent report (substandard translation unfortunately):

QUOTE

Witnesses Heard by The PJ in the Maddie Case Were Sounded Out by the McCanns

Persons Heard by the PJ in the Maddie Case Were Sounded Out by Madeleine’s Parents

McCanns searched for Witnesses
by Luís Maneta

The mediatic process was still under the secrecy of justice, Kate and Gerry had already been constituted as arguidos, but nonetheless Madeleine's parents did not stop having contacts with witnesses. Three of them told everything to the authorities.

Kate and Gerry McCann spoke with witnesses after leaving for England

During the period in which the process Maddie was kept under the secrecy of justice, the McCann family had knowledge of what several witnesses knew. Persons who were sounded out and questioned by detectives hired to discover the whereabouts of the English girl, or even by a millionaire friend of the couple, reported subsequently the fact to the authorities, as stated in the process made public last month.

Between the witnesses 'searched' on the McCanns request is Charlotte Pennington, one of the Ocean Club nannies, and Martin Smith, an Irish tourist who swore to be convinced of having seen Gerry carrying a child on his arms, in the fateful night of the 3rd of May in which the English girl disappeared of the apartment rented by the family in Praia da Luz.

Another witness, Catriona Baker, an Ocean Club nanny who knew personally Madeleine McCann, was received at the home of Kate and Gerry in November of 2007; months before her giving a statement to the Leicester police, in the scope of the rogatory letters sent by the Portuguese authorities for the United Kingdom.

When cross-examined by the English police, in April of 2008, Catriona Baker revealed the existence of this meeting: “I visited the family at their home in the sequence of an invitation to see how everyone was”.

UNQUOTE

You asked: "Why on earth would the girl lie? - put herself in serious trouble - for what reason?".

REPLY: gord, perfectly fair and good question, but it is well known that there are three very common reasons why witnesses lie every day of the year in our courts:

1. Family or personal/friendship loyalty

2. Money/bribes

3. Fear.

Plus of course, in this case, the notorious Tapas 9's 'Pact of Silence', the result of which was:

We'll keep shtumm about what really happened...while

You donate, donate and donate to the fund to find Madeleine.

Which gave Team McCann plenty of money to offer bribes, if they wished to

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  • #254
REPLY: You said: "Catriona Baker had no contact with the McCanns apart from looking after their child..."

But that's not true, is it? - see this recent report (substandard translation unfortunately):

QUOTE

Witnesses Heard by The PJ in the Maddie Case Were Sounded Out by the McCanns

Persons Heard by the PJ in the Maddie Case Were Sounded Out by Madeleine’s Parents

McCanns searched for Witnesses
by Luís Maneta

The mediatic process was still under the secrecy of justice, Kate and Gerry had already been constituted as arguidos, but nonetheless Madeleine's parents did not stop having contacts with witnesses. Three of them told everything to the authorities.

Kate and Gerry McCann spoke with witnesses after leaving for England

During the period in which the process Maddie was kept under the secrecy of justice, the McCann family had knowledge of what several witnesses knew. Persons who were sounded out and questioned by detectives hired to discover the whereabouts of the English girl, or even by a millionaire friend of the couple, reported subsequently the fact to the authorities, as stated in the process made public last month.

Between the witnesses 'searched' on the McCanns request is Charlotte Pennington, one of the Ocean Club nannies, and Martin Smith, an Irish tourist who swore to be convinced of having seen Gerry carrying a child on his arms, in the fateful night of the 3rd of May in which the English girl disappeared of the apartment rented by the family in Praia da Luz.

Another witness, Catriona Baker, an Ocean Club nanny who knew personally Madeleine McCann, was received at the home of Kate and Gerry in November of 2007; months before her giving a statement to the Leicester police, in the scope of the rogatory letters sent by the Portuguese authorities for the United Kingdom.

When cross-examined by the English police, in April of 2008, Catriona Baker revealed the existence of this meeting: “I visited the family at their home in the sequence of an invitation to see how everyone was”.

UNQUOTE

You asked: "Why on earth would the girl lie? - put herself in serious trouble - for what reason?".

REPLY: gord, perfectly fair and good question, but it is well known that there are three very common reasons why witnesses lie every day of the year in our courts:

1. Family or personal/friendship loyalty

2. Money/bribes

3. Fear.

Plus of course, in this case, the notorious Tapas 9's 'Pact of Silence', the result of which was:

We'll keep shtumm about what really happened...while

You donate, donate and donate to the fund to find Madeleine.

Which gave Team McCann plenty of money to offer bribes, if they wished to

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These Pj statements were taken days after Maddy went missing - everything above if it did happen happened months afetr the Mcaans returned to England 9 I think that is a 24 horas article - which rings big alarm bells

I seriously doubt that even the master criminals Mcaans could have managed to bribe / get to every potential witness in a matter of days

even the cook too ( or was she lyng as well )

even Amaral concedes that Maddie was alive on the 3rd .

I cant understand why every witness seems to be all implicated - this is just stretching things way too far

why is the 2nd so important to you
 
  • #255
Tony did you read my original answer? The twins and Maddie were at seperate creche - Stacey P looked after the twins - Cat B looked after Maddie. It seems quite reasonable that Maddie would dropped off by Gerry first - as the twins would take longer to get ready etc. He then returns and they both drop of the twins 20 minutes later

gord

POINT 1: You said: "He then returns and they both drop off the twins 20 minutes later". But the one nanny says that the father brough them back at 2.50pm - not 'they'

POINT 2: Isn't that disputed 'last photo' - the one by the pool that was only 'found' three weeks later - of them all near the pool at 2.29pm? You said: "The twins would take longer to get ready". They were already ready - at 2.29pm - weren't they?

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  • #256
These PJ statements were taken days after Maddy went missing - everything above if it did happen happened months after the McCanns returned to England - I think that is a 24 Horas article - which rings big alarm bells. I seriously doubt that even the master criminals McCanns could have managed to bribe/get to every potential witness in a matter of days.

Even the cook too (or was she lying as well?). Even Amaral concedes that Maddie was alive on the 3rd.

I can't understand why every witness seems to be all implicated - this is just stretching things way too far. Why is the 2nd so important to you?

REPLY: At issue is the truthfulness and accuracy of three witnesses. Pennington has already been exposed as being guilty of serious contradictions. As for Baker and 'the cook', I have not researched what they have to say in detail but I am doubtful about them. Their recollections are unspecific - not, for example: 'I remember that Madeleine was face-painting' or 'I remember that Madeleine was playing in the sand-pit'.

I am also concerned by the strange stories told about David Payne's visit to Apartment 5A. On the one hand he claims to have stayed long enough to see all three children dressed in white and 'looking like angels',then we hear he's only there for '30 seconds' and Kate's in the nude apart from a towel. I think this has been another bungled attempt by the McCanns and their friends to try to prove Madeleine was alive at around 6.30pm.

I also take into account that for the dogs to smell cadaverine at all, Madeleine would have had to have been dead in that apartment for two hours or longer.

Big and many contradictions in the 'Tapas 9' statements about what happened that afternoon - especially in Gerry McCann's sttaements - are another reason I do not think Madeleine was alive then.

Given that I believe the McCanns and their friends played out a cunning charade and abduction hoax at 10.00pm, I think they must have had at least several hours to plan it.

Other evidences suggest to me that Madeleine was dead before breakfast on 3rd May

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  • #257
I'm going to have to go with gord here, everyone. As a mom, I can tell you that what he is describing is typical parental behavior. Two parents- three kids, split them up to make the work easier on everyone.

It sounds like Gerry and Madeleine were ready to leave and Kate was still finishing up getting ready- either herself or the twins. So Gerry took Madeleine to the creche first, and she dropped the twins off 20 minutes later. Maybe he was in a hurry to join the rest of the Tapas group and didn't want to wait for her, and Kate suggested that since Maddy was also dressed he take her with him. It would be so much less work for Kate if she didn't have to put all three kids in the creche alone.

Cat took care of Madeleine, and Stacey watched Sean and Amelie. The witnesses are both correct as far as they and the children entrusted into their care is concerned.
 
  • #258
Calikid, I understand the point you are making, but exactly what happened that day keeps changing according to who you speak to and when you speak to them.

Take just this one instance, from Angela Balakrishnan in 'The Guardian' in April 2008:

QUOTE

10am: The sixth day of the McCanns' week-long holiday in the Algarve. The couple place their daughter, Madeleine and her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, in the Ocean Club's Kids Club while they go for a walk.
12.30pm: After collecting the children, Kate and Gerry head to their apartment, 5a, on ground floor of block five of the Waterside Village Gardens, for lunch before going to the Ocean Club swimming pool.
2.29pm: The last photograph of Madeleine is taken at the pool. The camera clock reads 1.29pm but the family says it was out by one hour.
3.30pm: Children return to Kids Club.

UNQUOTE

Do you see how the story keeps changing?

Now the 'last photo' is at 2.29pm and Madeleine and the twins do not return at 2.30pm (accordng to one nanny) or 2.50pm (according to the other nanny but now it's 3.30pm - a discrepancy of one hour.

How, please, do you and gord account for that discrepancy?

In addition, the kids now arrive at the creche/kid's club at 10.00am - instead of 9.10am according to one of the nannies (and 9.30am according to the other)

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  • #259
Moving away for a moment from the apparent unreliability of some or all of the nannies' statements, let's take a glimpse at how other parts of the story have changed from time to time. Here's an account by Sue Reid, culled from the 'Daily Mail' over a year ago, last August. I've just pasted here some verbatim extracts from that article. My comments in bold italics:

QUOTE

Sitting beside a swimming pool in the Algarve on that May evening Gerry and Kate McCann were enjoying themselves. The tapas bar of the Mark Warner holiday resort in Praia da Luz was buzzing with holidaymakers and it was quiz night. The McCanns were favourites to win the contest organised by the resort's aerobics teacher Najova Chekaya. After all, the two doctors had brains on their side. Around their table were seven friends from England, three of them also doctors and one a top medical research fellow.

Comment: Totally false. It has now been proved that the quiz was on Tuesday 1 May, not Thursday 3 May. The entire paragraph is entirely wrong, including even the claim that Praia da Luz was 'buzzing with holidaymakers'. Everyone agrees it was very quiet!

The group of nine were holidaying in Portugal and wanted to have a good time. As one of the doctors, Matthew Oldfield, was to recall: "We drank. So what! We were on holiday."

Comment is unnecessary.

maddiePA_468x624.jpg
Madeleine: Questions about her disappearance are growing

But 50 yards away on the other side of the swimming pool, the group's children were sleeping alone. In the bedroom of one ground floor apartment was Madeleine, the McCanns' three-year-old daughter. Her twin brother and sister, Sean and Amelie, two, lay in cots either side of her. They had been tucked up at 7pm.

Comment: Most other versions now say 7.30pm

Half an hour later [7.30pm] the McCanns had joined their friends for dinner at the tapas bar.

Comment: Most other versions now say it was an hour or more later that they went down to the Tapas bar.

What happened next has mystified the world. At 10pm Kate McCann got up from the table to check on her children. She slipped in through the patio windows to find the twins safely asleep - and her daughter's bed empty...

Meanwhile the campaign to keep the public aware of Madeleine's name goes on. It has involved her Roman Catholic parents visiting the Pope.

mccann1PA2205_468x401.jpg
Staying on: Gerry and Kate McCann in Praia da Luz

...on the instructions of JK Rowling, posters of Madeleine were distributed at British bookshops as they opened for the sale of the new Harry Potter book. This week the donations from the public to a Madeleine fund, financing the PR campaign and global search for the little girl from Rothley in Leicestershire, were nudging £1 million. More than 50 million people visited the Find Madeleine website in the 48 hours after its launch.
Nothing like this has ever been seen before, and probably never will again.

The reluctance of Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends to speak publicly, or in any detail, about the minutiae of the evening has fuelled the controversy, although they insist it is illegal in Portugal to comment on any police investigation.

In another uncomfortable development the Portuguese press, including the respected newspaper Dairio de Noticias, has claimed that interviews given by the McCann group to police contain discrepancies. Their stories and the timings of their movements on the night do not tally.

The patio had been left open by the McCanns in case of fire and, it appears, so that they could easily check the children.

Comment: Yet the abductor escaped through the bedroom window and shutters, without leaving a trace.

One question being asked is why didn't the parents put their children in the evening creche which is open until 11.30pm? Why didn't they hire a babysitter, bookable at the Mark Warner reception desk?

Comment: A question that has never been satisfactorily answered

In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.

Comment: Half an hour? She 'ran away'. It doesn't look like she was playing 'hide-and-seek'

...recently they all went to Mark Warner's in Greece where they had devised a plan of leaving their children to sleep while they had dinner nearby.

Comment unnecessary.

As Mr McCann explained: "The distance is so small, it was so close it was almost like having dinner in your garden. What we were doing was rigorous with multiple people checking at regular intervals."

When asked if Madeleine might have wandered out through the unlocked patio windows towards the swimming pool, or beyond to the beach, the McCanns dismiss it out of hand. "We're absolutely certain. We double and treble-checked and have no doubt she was taken," said Mr McCann.

Yet another scenario is now emerging in the local press. It is built on the recollections of other guests and workers at the resort. The official story from the McCanns is this. Mr McCann said he checked on his three children at 9.05pm. He noticed that a door in the apartment which had been left shut was ajar. He thought nothing of it but it may have indicated that a kidnapper was already there. But his daughter was fast asleep so he went back to the Tapas bar.

Comment: He's stuck rigidly to that line

Another of the group, Jane Tanner, says she took her turn 10 minutes later. She claimed later to police that she saw a dark-haired man of about 35 carrying a child as she walked back to the bar afterwards but thought nothing of it.

Comment: 'as she walked back to the bar'. This has now been completely reversed to her seeing the abductor as she was on her way from the Tapas bar to do her 'check' (if she was doing a check)

Soon after her return - at 9.45pm - Dr Oldfield did his round of the bedrooms.

Comment: Yet in other statements, nothing is said about Jane Tanner returning to the Tapas bar

In a first statement to police, it is unclear if he actually went inside the McCann flat.

Comment: Perhaps he couldn't remember, and needed a 'cognitive therapist' to help him

Indeed, one scenario is that many of the checks of the children were not visible, but involved listening at doors or even from outside the apartments.

Comment: Only Oldfield's check at around 9pm is said to have involved listening outside

However, in a second statement Dr Oldfield insists he did look in Madeleine's bedroom...

Comment: I wonder if he talked to Gerry O'Brien before making his second statement?

...believes he saw her there...

Comment: He now says he's not sure, but believes he didn't see Madeleine

...and that there was light coming in through the windows as though the heavy shutters had been opened. Again, he thought little of it until afterwards.

Then, of course, it was Mrs McCann's turn. She found Madeleine gone.
Madeleine's aunt Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call later that night from her younger brother, Mr McCann, who told her: "I went back to check the children at nine o'clock. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut." Mrs Cameron related that when Mrs McCann went to the two apartment a little under an hour later: "The shutters had been jemmied open. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

Comment: Utter fabrication, making it look like the police backed their story. They were soon found out on that little lie

But what is now perturbing Portuguese police is how could she be abducted when the McCann group were checking so often?

Comment: Good question

Or have reports inadvertently exaggerated how vigilant the parents really were?

Comment: Another good question

And what of Najova Chekaya, the aerobics teacher running the quiz? She was invited over to the McCann table by Mr McCann himself when the game ended at 9.30. She stayed for half an hour. She later claimed to friends that nobody left the table.

Comment: She was talking about Tuesday!

There is another conundrum too. It concerns the sighting by Jane Tanner of the man carrying a child. He was wearing beige trousers and smart black shoes. Her report is taken seriously by police.

Comment: You got that one wrong, Sue!

Yet a British holidaymaker, Jeremy Wilkins, has given a deposition that does not support her evidence. He knew Mr McCann because he played tennis with him, and was walking his eight-month-old son in the night air when the drama unfolded. He says that he met Mr McCann, who had come out of his apartment at 9.05pm...

Comment: Gerry says he came in at 9.05pm, satyed in the loo a long time, and came out at 9.10pm. The handwritten notes the 'Tapas' wrote on a torn-out page from Madeleine's notebook put the time of his check at 9.10pm to 9.15pm - so on that tmeline, there's a 10-minute discrepancy between the times Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins say they saw each other

...and had a word with him. Soon after that Jane Tanner would have crossed paths with Mr Wilkins and his baby.

Comment: Gerry's new line is: 'I had my back towards her as she walked past me'. But he didn't see her walk away from him either. And Jane Tanner drew herself walking past Jeremy W and Gerry McC on the same side but later told the 'Panorama' programme that the two men were on the other side of the road

Mr Wilkins says he saw no man carrying a child or Jane Tanner herself. "It was a very narrow path and I think it would have been almost impossible for anyone to walk by without me noticing," he said.

So today the questions remain. Was Madeleine kidnapped or killed? Or unwatched, did she simply walk out and get lost? How could there be a break in with a jemmy through metal shutters without waking the twins or alerting a passerby? Someone, somewhere must know the answers.

Comment: Dr Kate McCann and Dr Gerry McCann. And Goncalo Amaral

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  • #260
Calikid, I understand the point you are making, but exactly what happened that day keeps changing according to who you speak to and when you speak to them.

Take just this one instance, from Angela Balakrishnan in 'The Guardian' in April 2008:

QUOTE

10am: The sixth day of the McCanns' week-long holiday in the Algarve. The couple place their daughter, Madeleine and her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, in the Ocean Club's Kids Club while they go for a walk.
12.30pm: After collecting the children, Kate and Gerry head to their apartment, 5a, on ground floor of block five of the Waterside Village Gardens, for lunch before going to the Ocean Club swimming pool.
2.29pm: The last photograph of Madeleine is taken at the pool. The camera clock reads 1.29pm but the family says it was out by one hour.
3.30pm: Children return to Kids Club.

UNQUOTE

Do you see how the story keeps changing?

Now the 'last photo' is at 2.29pm and Madeleine and the twins do not return at 2.30pm (accordng to one nanny) or 2.50pm (according to the other nanny but now it's 3.30pm - a discrepancy of one hour.

How, please, do you and gord account for that discrepancy?

In addition, the kids now arrive at the creche/kid's club at 10.00am - instead of 9.10am according to one of the nannies (and 9.30am according to the other)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

who on earth is Angela what her name - was she there ?? is she a reporter ?? does she know more than the PJ

I have no idea what she is talking about .

Tony using the photo as your plumb line for the timings is just daft - the camera was even said to have been set wong

this foum has being crying out for official statements for a year now - so we can narrow down the times and get away from just rumour and wild press reports - we now have some and yet you ignore them because it just doesnt fit your theory

to just cry liar to them all - well It does not make sense one witness maybe but THREE - sorry four if you now count the other nannie in the twins creche

You have a habit of just ignoring difficult questions and talking us down cul de sacs with long winded waffle -

Can you come up with some FACTS to prove that FOUR witnesses are all lying ? I doubt it
 
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