Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 25

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who on earth is Angela what her name - was she there ?? is she a reporter ?? does she know more than the PJ

I have no idea what she is talking about .

Tony using the photo as your plumb line for the timings is just daft - the camera was even said to have been set wong

this foum has being crying out for official statements for a year now - so we can narrow down the times and get away from just rumour and wild press reports - we now have some and yet you ignore them because it just doesnt fit your theory

to just cry liar to them all - well It does not make sense one witness maybe but THREE - sorry four if you now count the other nannie in the twins creche

You have a habit of just ignoring difficult questions and talking us down cul de sacs with long winded waffle -

Can you come up with some FACTS to prove that FOUR witnesses are all lying ? I doubt it

Ok Gord, you think that Tony is "ignoring difficult questions and talking us down cul de sacs with long winded waffle" I don't agree but I will cut to the chase and ask you one simple question. Please explain to me why Jane Tanner gave PJ a map of exactly where & how she walked past Gerry & Jeremy Wilkins i.e on the same side of the street as them yet she publicly stated on Panorama & a map was shown to show her on the opposite side!
Please explain to me why this member of the Tapas group told that deliberate lie, which version is a lie we are not sure but one thing for sure if she was on the same side of the street Wilkins & Gerry would have had to have seen her, even stepped aside to allow her to pass.
Please excuse her lies to me if you can & explain why the need for lies, there is only one truth.

I have loads of points from the preceding posts but this will do for starters.
 
Ok Gord, you think that Tony is "ignoring difficult questions and talking us down cul de sacs with long winded waffle" I don't agree but I will cut to the chase and ask you one simple question. Please explain to me why Jane Tanner gave PJ a map of exactly where & how she walked past Gerry & Jeremy Wilkins i.e on the same side of the street as them yet she publicly stated on Panorama & a map was shown to show her on the opposite side!
Please explain to me why this member of the Tapas group told that deliberate lie, which version is a lie we are not sure but one thing for sure if she was on the same side of the street Wilkins & Gerry would have had to have seen her, even stepped aside to allow her to pass.
Please excuse her lies to me if you can & explain why the need for lies, there is only one truth.

I have loads of points from the preceding posts but this will do for starters.

no idea -
 
who on earth is Angela what her name - was she there ?? is she a reporter ?? does she know more than the PJ

I have no idea what she is talking about .

Tony using the photo as your plumb line for the timings is just daft - the camera was even said to have been set wong

this foum has being crying out for official statements for a year now - so we can narrow down the times and get away from just rumour and wild press reports - we now have some and yet you ignore them because it just doesnt fit your theory

to just cry liar to them all - well It does not make sense one witness maybe but THREE - sorry four if you now count the other nannie in the twins creche

You have a habit of just ignoring difficult questions and talking us down cul de sacs with long winded waffle -

Can you come up with some FACTS to prove that FOUR witnesses are all lying ? I doubt it


I agree completely.Nice to "see" you again gord :blowkiss:
 
no idea -

Amazing answer Gord, says it all really, you vehemently argue other points that you think you can dispute but on a very important point like I raised you just dismiss it as unimportant. It is irrefutable that Jane Tanner lied!
Don't forget that she claims she actually saw Madeleine being abducted. She could be the most important witness in this whole case yet she lied not only about that walk to or from the apartment but her description of "Bundleman" evolved radically!

Not something to be dismissed with a "no idea" & continue to argue about other obscure points which there is little chance of proving! We have not heard those other people actually speak & blatantly contradict on television what they gave as statements to PJ. Jane Tanner is a proven liar, FACT!
If you think that the McCanns are innocent, I really would like to know how you can reconcile her lies with that fact, she is covering up something!
 
Amazing answer Gord, says it all really, you vehemently argue other points that you think you can dispute but on a very important point like I raised you just dismiss it as unimportant. It is irrefutable that Jane Tanner lied!
Don't forget that she claims she actually saw Madeleine being abducted. She could be the most important witness in this whole case yet she lied not only about that walk to or from the apartment but her description of "Bundleman" evolved radically!

Not something to be dismissed with a "no idea" & continue to argue about other obscure points which there is little chance of proving! We have not heard those other people actually speak & blatantly contradict on television what they gave as statements to PJ. Jane Tanner is a proven liar, FACT!
If you think that the McCanns are innocent, I really would like to know how you can reconcile her lies with that fact, she is covering up something!

Barnaby

I have posted here enough over the last year to know there is liitle point in debating with you about Tanner - i know your views - we have discussed Tanner ad nausem -

you can claim what you want as fact but it doesnt make it so
 
Barnaby

I have posted here enough over the last year to know there is liitle point in debating with you about Tanner - i know your views - we have discussed Tanner ad nausem -

you can claim what you want as fact but it doesnt make it so

Ok point taken you have no wish to debate anything that is proven fact just continue to argue about obscure points which may make your arguments plausible!

None so blind as those who will not see!

At the risk of repeating myself:
FACT: Tanner is a key witness
FACT: Tanner changed description of Bundleman several times
FACT: Tanner told PJ she was on same side of the road as Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner told Panorama, I watched the programme, that she was on the opposite side of the road to Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner lied!

How you can claim that I am making up facts to suit me is amusing! You asked Tony to provide you with facts that people were lying, I have provided you with facts to prove that Jane Tanner is a liar, Jane Tanner, again I say, a key witness, potentially the most important witness, yet you dismiss these as me twisting to suit my theories! Come on, I saw her, heard her on television say the complete opposite to what has been released from PJ's files! She lied, end of, I want to know why!
 
Ok point taken you have no wish to debate anything that is proven fact just continue to argue about obscure points which may make your arguments plausible!

None so blind as those who will not see!

At the risk of repeating myself:
FACT: Tanner is a key witness
FACT: Tanner changed description of Bundleman several times
FACT: Tanner told PJ she was on same side of the road as Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner told Panorama, I watched the programme, that she was on the opposite side of the road to Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner lied!

How you can claim that I am making up facts to suit me is amusing! You asked Tony to provide you with facts that people were lying, I have provided you with facts to prove that Jane Tanner is a liar, Jane Tanner, again I say, a key witness, potentially the most important witness, yet you dismiss these as me twisting to suit my theories! Come on, I saw her, heard her on television say the complete opposite to what has been released from PJ's files! She lied, end of, I want to know why!

Bingo, Barnaby. She is the only person whose account backs up the abduction theory (since the shutter tampering was proven false and shown clearly to be false in the crime scene photos.)

She changed her story, reportedly with the aid of a "hypnotherapist." But still, changed her story and her description.

Her presence in the are is not verified by any other witness, and is disputed by Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, who independently verify each other's account, and say they did not see Jane.

She's not a credible witness. Period. End of story.
 
Bingo, Barnaby. She is the only person whose account backs up the abduction theory (since the shutter tampering was proven false and shown clearly to be false in the crime scene photos.)

She changed her story, reportedly with the aid of a "hypnotherapist." But still, changed her story and her description.

Her presence in the are is not verified by any other witness, and is disputed by Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, who independently verify each other's account, and say they did not see Jane.

She's not a credible witness. Period. End of story.

Wow! The hypnotherapist thing is new to me Tex, is this her excuse for lying? LOL!
 
Hey guys, on a lighter note & I know that you will all excuse me for going off topic here, I just saw on the Proboards that it is Colomon's birthday. I know everyone here will want to join with me in wishing her a wonderful day. What would we do without her? She is such a special member here.:applause:

Have a fabulous birthday Colomon, Love, good wishes & good health to you on your special day

:HappyBday :singing::bananapartyhat::bananapartyhat: :balloons: :toastred::grouphug: :bananapartyhat::bananapartyhat::HappyBday
 
Ok point taken you have no wish to debate anything that is proven fact just continue to argue about obscure points which may make your arguments plausible!

None so blind as those who will not see!

At the risk of repeating myself:
FACT: Tanner is a key witness
FACT: Tanner changed description of Bundleman several times
FACT: Tanner told PJ she was on same side of the road as Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner told Panorama, I watched the programme, that she was on the opposite side of the road to Gerry & Wilkins
FACT: Tanner lied!

How you can claim that I am making up facts to suit me is amusing! You asked Tony to provide you with facts that people were lying, I have provided you with facts to prove that Jane Tanner is a liar, Jane Tanner, again I say, a key witness, potentially the most important witness, yet you dismiss these as me twisting to suit my theories! Come on, I saw her, heard her on television say the complete opposite to what has been released from PJ's files! She lied, end of, I want to know why!

Ok Barnaby

New day and all that - I will try and deal with your points - though I fear that our poitions on this are so opposite that there might not be common ground

I will say at the outset that it just doesnt seem feasable for everyone to have lied - the whole conspiracy theory that everyone is involved just doesnt seem credible - from the nannies to the cook to the Tapas group - all to easy to just label them liars

The key point you seem to have is that

1. there is a discrepancy between Panorama and her statement about what side of the road Gerry and Wilkins were on . I dont know the exact answer - I am sure that maybe the LP asked this later . It could be a number of things - Wilkins and Getty might not have been stationary - remember Wilkins was walking his child to try and get her asleep - meybe they crossed the road ie started on one side but were on the move . the only point is what was her motive to lie ? if this was all part of the grand cover up do yoiu think Gerry would have then denied seeing her ?

The map that was drawn - when was it drawn - who wrote it- there was portogese writing on ot , was it from the night when there was confusion etc . I just cant see how this must mean 100% Tanner is a liar

I agree Tanner is a key witness - every witness is key - in that after the event she thought the person she saw carrying the child could have been the abductor - it could have been a guy going home with his child , a tourist who knows . It was only afterwads that she thougt of the importance .

Tanners statment was quite clear =- she saw Gerry and wilkins and she saw a man in the distance carrying a child - she didnt say it was Madeleine .

panorama and her PJ statement are fairly consistent apart from the issue of the side of the road . Granted if I was a police officer investigating the crime I would just want to clarify this - maybe they did - we havent yet seen the further statements .

so there you are - I doubt we are any further forward from last year - but Tanner is still free - the case has been shelved and no -one still knows what happened to Maddie
 
gord: "I will say at the outset that it just doesn't seem feasible for everyone to have lied..."

RESPONSE:

Dr David Payne to Portuguese newspaper: "We have a Pact of Silence. This is our matter"

+++++++++++++

Texana: "She changed her story, reportedly with the aid of a 'hypnotherapist'."

REPLY: Texana, the word used was 'a cognitive therapist'. Not only that, she [I think it was a she] was 'FBI-trained'.

[PAUSE: Wow!]

This 'cognitive therapist' was able to perform one of the greatest feats in the history of mankind. Jane Tanner's memory, reversing all the normal rules of brain functioning, was able - months later - to recall exactly what she saw on the night of 3 May 2007 with far greater accuracy than during the hours immediately after she saw the abductor (cough).

This stunning achievement surely deserves international recognition?

A Nobel prize, perhaps

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
gord: "I will say at the outset that it just doesn't seem feasible for everyone to have lied..."

RESPONSE:

Dr David Payne to Portuguese newspaper: "We have a Pact of Silence. This is our matter"

+++++++++++++

Texana: "She changed her story, reportedly with the aid of a 'hypnotherapist'."

REPLY: Texana, the word used was 'a cognitive therapist'. Not only that, she [I think it was a she] was 'FBI-trained'.

[PAUSE: Wow!]

This 'cognitive therapist' was able to perform one of the greatest feats in the history of mankind. Jane Tanner's memory, reversing all the normal rules of brain functioning, was able - months later - to recall exactly what she saw on the night of 3 May 2007 with far greater accuracy than during the hours immediately after she saw the abductor (cough).

This stunning achievement surely deserves international recognition?

A Nobel prize, perhaps

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right, Tony, makes me think of a bad joke: What's the difference between a hypnotherapist and a cognitive therapist?

Answer: Two thousand dollars and a couple of initials after the name!
 
I am not 100% sure now if the cognitive therapist used by Tanner was FBI-trained.

It seems she was also 'helped' by a forensic artist who was FBI-trained:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7098390.stm

It was of course over 5 months after Madeleine's 'disappearance' that the artist's impression of 5' 6" sleek black-haired Mediterranean man was released.

The man, it may be recalled, who allegedly vaulted through a window carrying Madeleine, leaving no forensic trace, and who remembered to partially close the shutters after him.

After he had entered through an unlocked patio door (left open just in case a fire broke out while the Doctors McCann were boozing) and immediately after seeing three people check the 'Tapas 9' apartments - Matthew Oldfield at 9.03pm, Gerry McCann at 9.05pm and Jane Tanner at 9.05pm/9.06pm.

An abduction scenario regarded as perfectly credible by april4sky, daffodil and gord

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I am not 100% sure now if the cognitive therapist used by Tanner was FBI-trained.

It seems she was also 'helped' by a forensic artist who was FBI-trained:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7098390.stm

It was of course over 5 months after Madeleine's 'disappearance' that the artist's impression of 5' 6" sleek black-haired Mediterranean man was released.

The man, it may be recalled, who allegedly vaulted through a window carrying Madeleine, leaving no forensic trace, and who remembered to partially close the shutters after him.

After he had entered through an unlocked patio door (left open just in case a fire broke out while the Doctors McCann were boozing) and immediately after seeing three people check the 'Tapas 9' apartments - Matthew Oldfield at 9.03pm, Gerry McCann at 9.05pm and Jane Tanner at 9.05pm/9.06pm.

An abduction scenario regarded as perfectly credible by april4sky, daffodil and gord

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

thats the thing Tony no scenario seems credible

Certainly the scenario of a group of doctors being able to successfully hide and dispose of a body - trick search dogs - leave no forensic evidence all inside a matter of 1/2 an hour

You think the abduction seems doubtfull - well since this case started I have seen not one credible scenario on either how Madeleine was killed / died and then the body hidden and then disposed off . I have seen plenty of far out theories . but nothing credible that fits the evidence found .

The PJ have found the same thing - they have no body and nothing to tell them what happened . Granted there is nothing to show exactly how the abduction happened either .

But I still err on the abduction theory as it seems the most likely to me . I have never ruled out completely the parental involvment , but until I see positive and firm evidence to show this and what happened then I remaiin firm in my views .

It is all too easy to use a mocking tone as you do on alternative theories - fine . But remember this case has been shelved - the combined strength of portugese and UK LE have not solved it - not found a body positive forensics anything . In fact as far as I can see the whole case seems to revolve around the two dogs alerting - there doesnt seem much more
 
Certainly the scenario of a group of doctors being able to successfully hide and dispose of a body - trick search dogs - leave no forensic evidence all inside a matter of 1/2 an hour

Half an hour?!?!

Reminds me of the politicians and their deliberate attempts to mislead.....
 
ok Colomom

fair enough - maybe then an hour - but not much more than that

5.30pm Maddy picked up by Kate from creche - we have the records from the creche and the witness statements

giving that it takes 2 hours for a cadaver scent to develop and Gerry had left for the Tapas by 8.30

anyway it doesnt leave much of a window for the death , and the decision to then dispose and hide

Even if Maddy died at 6.00pm - the body remaing in the flat till 8.00pm - that would give you only 1/2 hour to then get rid of the body in such a place that it wasnt found by any searches any of the scent dogs that the Portugese also had .
 
Exclusive New Videos (Thanks X!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akIDiz5Rv_c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhgaJVARWz0

Quick Summary:

Images of the McCanns second apartment in Praia da Luz, Algarve, Portugal. The Portuguese police searches the McCanns apartment and finds several sleeping medicaments, confidential CEOP manuals, books about murder like The Interpretation of Murder, and smell of corpse in the cuddle toy which belonged to Madeleine. Video released by Spanish Antena 3 TV. 10 September 2008

Final update:
Listening to the journalist from the first video basically what she says is all covered in the translated article bellow already. The second video explains what you all have heard from Mr.Grime and states about the conclusions of the dogs findings which you can read in the PJ Final Report.

Antena3 Article: The McCanns kept numerous medicines which provoked sleepiness

New Exclusive Images of the Report
Madrid, Espejo Público [an Antena3 TV Show]


Given the repeated denial of the British police to send different reports about the married couple, the Portuguese police made a profile searching throughout the McCanns second house, in Praia da Luz.

This way, officers accompanied by two police psychologists, carry out a meticulous search in the main bedroom [the parents’ bedroom].

In a case of abduction, the family circle is always investigated. The police were surprised on having seen the bedroom. Kate seems to be mourning. In her small bedside table are many photos of Maddy [sic] surrounded with rosaries and a Bible, which had bookmarked, with a picture a fragment of the Old Testament in which it could be read: " “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die” [2 Samuel 12:14]".

At the other side of the bed, on Gerry's bedside table the attention is given to, between other books, “The interpretation of Murder ". In the study [office space] where Gerry writes his blog and where he works at the campaign to find his daughter, another surprise: CEOP manuals, books with access restricted to police and governmental entities.

Before this discovery, Mark Harrison, the British police officer sent from the United Kingdom to coordinate the case, does not give credit. He wonders how many married couples had access to these manuals, which are exclusively reserved to police officers.

The Portuguese Officers confirm in this way their suspicions regarding the contacts which are provided to the McCanns, which for them is translated in a big political pressure that to their judgement, limits the investigation.

Also, the police find numerous medicines, which they examine in search of these sedatives that they fear that were given to the children by the McCanns on the night of the 3rd of May. They also register the side effects caused by the medicines that they find, and verify that the majority of them provoke sleepiness. They examine as well the drawers, closets, as well as the twins’ room and that no longer sleep in cots but in beds.

The final report of the process, in contrast to the images included in the same report, state that independently of the curious and morbid conclusions, the only fact that one can determine, as such, is the disparate behaviour of the couple at the time of facing Madeleine's disappearance.

Source: Antena3 (Spanish)

Related: Madeleine McCann the Facts in the Beginning (SOL article)

3. In the Vista Mar villa (rented by the McCanns)

a) cadaver odour, detected by the dogs on clothes that belong to Kate, and on the pink soft toy

b) an English book, normally used by police, that focuses on the different types of crimes, as well as on what clues should be looked for to identify its perpetrators

c) a bible, on Kate’s bedside table, open at the Old Testament, at the passage that tells the death of King David’s son (God punished David with the death of his son, in order to force him away from sin and to return onto the path of good)

d) Kate’s diary, in which she writes about daily difficulties, in dealing with her children
 
Does anyone remember what date the McCanns moved to the Vista Mar Villa? Was it before or after the Pope visit & the rental of the hire car?
 
Snipped to save space...In a case of abduction, the family circle is always investigated. The police were surprised on having seen the bedroom. Kate seems to be mourning. In her small bedside table are many photos of Maddy [sic] surrounded with rosaries and a Bible, which had bookmarked, with a picture a fragment of the Old Testament in which it could be read: " “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die” [2 Samuel 12:14]"...snip


c) a bible, on Kate’s bedside table, open at the Old Testament, at the passage that tells the death of King David’s son (God punished David with the death of his son, in order to force him away from sin and to return onto the path of good)

...

Was this particular verse highlighted with a marker? Underlined? How do we know that this is what Kate was reading? It is unclear. According to the article the page was bookmarked with a picture. A picture of what/who? of Maddy? "A fragment of the Old Testament" was found? Well duh, of course only a fragment would be found on one page. It never says underlined, or highlighted. This makes no sence. It almost seems like they are trying to make something out of nothing in this case. There is enough damning evidence without creating more. (Unless this particular verse was actually circled and very obvious that it was *the one* she was grieving to) Actually this is very commen, My Holy Bible has probably 50 book marks, my mother-in-law has 1/2 of hers marked. I'm sure there could be a horrible passage on one or more of my bookmarked pages that also have helpful passages. The Bible moves along rapidly at times.

Looking at my Holy Bible (normal size and print) at the page that 2 Samuel 12:14 is located on it starts at 2 Samuel 11:9 and runs to 2 Samuel 13:1. There is over 100 *other* verses than the one they pin point. Actually if you read the whole chapter 12, it is very interesting indeed. The death of Davids son is only one "point" in a rather long lesson. David getting another woman pregnant (other than his wife) is also a point made in the chapter.
 
ok Colomom

fair enough - maybe then an hour - but not much more than that

5.30pm Maddy picked up by Kate from creche - we have the records from the creche and the witness statements

giving that it takes 2 hours for a cadaver scent to develop and Gerry had left for the Tapas by 8.30

anyway it doesnt leave much of a window for the death , and the decision to then dispose and hide

Even if Maddy died at 6.00pm - the body remaing in the flat till 8.00pm - that would give you only 1/2 hour to then get rid of the body in such a place that it wasnt found by any searches any of the scent dogs that the Portugese also had .

There are many theories....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2662795&postcount=428

There was time....
 
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