Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[RichardKimble]

I don't think the Braunschweig court had an opinion of that or even on the five cases for which CB was charged. All that was considered was the jurisdiction and the whereabouts of CB's residence.
My opinion

Results suggest the defence argument was more sound than the prosecutions.FF said he raised it at a preliminary hearing ,possibly hinting the BKA carried on regardless.

After a comprehensive assessment of all the arguments presented, the chamber assumed that the accused was last resident outside of the local district and has therefore declared itself incompetent"

"The defense already pointed out during the investigation that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction," Fülscher continued.

Landgericht unzuständig: Prozess gegen Maddie-Verdächtigen geplatzt

Ein möglicher Prozess gegen den Maddie-Verdächtigen Christian Brückner in Braunschweig ist geplatzt. Das Landgericht erklärte sich für „nicht zuständig“.

www.bild.de

 

[Mex]

There have been at least 3 sites in Portugal now searched for remains, waste ground in 2014, wells in 2020, the recent ones at the reservoir and probably the one at the allotments in Germany, 3 one could surmise to be linked to CB, now either the two searches one in Germany and the recent one were either from Intel which has proved wrong or after careful analysis of areas known to CB they were focused on this.

If we take your scenario of ruling in a witness who indirectly links to the suspect the opposite must be true, Intel wrong, witness unreliable.

Looking for a body particularly that of a small child over the areas CB may have covered in his travels doesn't even bear comparison with with needles and haystacks.

 

[Davieson]

Looking for a body particularly that of a small child over the areas CB may have covered in his travels doesn't even bear comparison with with needles and haystacks.

Indeed, and if nothing to do with CB, then even more difficult

 

[Mex]

Then it cannot be stated with any certainty that CB is the killer until or these things are found.
Interestingly it is only ever HCW who says the girl is dead, do the brits or portuguese subscribe to this one wonders?

If they do they are not saying; then no-one is saying anything.

You are right when you say there is no certainty. It will need a properly constituted court to determine that and of course the suspect will have to be informed of what the charges are.

At the moment CB is prime suspect in the murder of a defenceless child - I expect that is what the indictment against him will say if we ever reach that stage.
My opinion

 

[Lyall0814]

I don't think the Braunschweig court had an opinion of that or even on the five cases for which CB was charged. All that was considered was the jurisdiction and the whereabouts of CB's residence.
My opinion

The court has to agree to the charge or charges I think or there wouldn't be any. They'd have to do the same with any MM-related charges, if any request or requests to charge are ever made.

(that's my understanding anyway. Might be wrong though!)

 

[Davieson]

If a court rejects a prosecution case, can that decision be appealed in a higher court ?

 

[Lyall0814]

Did you have any idea what they were doing regarding the cases to which you refer when they were collecting the evidence against CB to bring them to the prosecution stage?

Of course not. But that activity did result in charges. Quite possibly they regret their June 2020 appeal now. Maybe they should have continued doing it secretly - they might have achieved more if they'd avoided the avalanche of misinformation they've very likely been hit with since going public. All investigations are.

But perhaps there was a reason why they had to make the public announcement.

 

[Lyall0814]

If a court rejects a prosecution case, can that decision be appealed in a higher court ?

Good question! (I don't know)

 

[Lyall0814]

If memory serves me well Lyal, the change in CB's status to prime murder suspect came as a direct result of the emergence of fresh evidence to that effect.
Snip
May 4 2022
Fresh evidence has been found against the prime suspect in the disappearance of MM, a German prosecutor has revealed.

HCW said in an interview on Portuguese television that investigators believed they had found “some facts, some new evidence, not forensic evidence.”

Officials in Faro, Portugal, said last week that CB 44, a convicted rapist, was an arguido, or formal suspect – the first time Portuguese authorities have officially identified a suspect in the case since MM's parents, KM and GM, were declared such in 2007. They were formally cleared of suspicion in 2008.

Madeleine McCann: ‘new evidence’ linked to suspect found, prosecutor says

German prosecutor says investigators are sure Christian Brückner killed three-year-old and have ‘new facts’

www.theguardian.com

So he wasn't already prime murder suspect in 2020? Everything the prosecutor said indicated he was.

 

[RichardKimble]

Of course not. But that activity did result in charges. Quite possibly they regret their June 2020 appeal now. Maybe they should have continued doing it secretly - they might have achieved more if they'd avoided the avalanche of misinformation they've very likely been hit with since going public. All investigations are.

But perhaps there was a reason why they had to make the public announcement.

Looking at the appeal, there was information wanted on 3 specifics, the two vehicles and the phone call, the vehicles would be for forensics, the call was for who was engaged in it and in reality did it relate to Madeleine.

 

[Lyall0814]

Looking at the appeal, there was information wanted on 3 specifics, the two vehicles and the phone call, the vehicles would be for forensics, the call was for who was engaged in it and in reality did it relate to Madeleine.

Didn't they already have the vehicles though? I remember being very confused about the messages at the time. Still am

 

[RichardKimble]

Didn't they already have the vehicles though? I remember being very confused about the messages at the time. Still am

Yes, just looked at one report saying they had seized the vechiles, obviously looking for movement of them.

 

[Mex]

The court has to agree to the charge or charges I think or there wouldn't be any. They'd have to do the same with any MM-related charges, if any request or requests to charge are ever made.

(that's my understanding anyway. Might be wrong though!)

My understanding of the German process is very much on a par with yours so I think we are both "hypothetically speaking".
But I think you are way off track in thinking that the defence can veto charges.

Snip

Prosecution​

The first phase of a German criminal prosecution is pre-trial investigation to determine if there are grounds for a formal indictment. If a prosecutor determines that there is, the case is transferred to the appropriate German court, where the presiding judge decides if the evidence warrants a trial. This contrasts markedly from the US, where a judge will have little or no knowledge of the facts of a case until evidence has been introduced in the courtroom.

Pleas & Evidence​

Formal pleas of “guilty” or “not guilty” do not exist in German trials. An accused party can’t plead guilty in order to receive a lesser punishment. Hearsay evidence and, under certain conditions, depositions of absent witnesses can be admitted as evidence in a German court. The attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence can be compelled.

German Law and the German Legal System | How To Germany

Discover the intricacies of the German legal system and learn how to navigate the law in Germany. Get tips from expert expats on complying with German law and understanding the legal system.

howtogermany.com

I found it interesting that hearsay evidence is allowed and also that court procedures are so different from ours -
Snip
Though he has the duty of defending the accused to the maximum of his ability, a German lawyer is not as active in court as an American or British lawyer may be. In a German trial, the judge, not the defense counsel or the prosecutor, obtains the testimony of the witnesses. After the judge is finished, the prosecutor and the defense counsel will be permitted to question witnesses. The aim is to obtain the truth from witnesses by direct questioning rather than through the examination and cross-examination.
---------------------------------------

I think the present court hold up is nothing to do with evidence and all to do with jurisdiction which I think must have been challenged, hence the delay.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

Of course not. But that activity did result in charges. Quite possibly they regret their June 2020 appeal now. Maybe they should have continued doing it secretly - they might have achieved more if they'd avoided the avalanche of misinformation they've very likely been hit with since going public. All investigations are.

But perhaps there was a reason why they had to make the public announcement.

They did continue with the investigation into the five separate incidents and took them as far as the trial stage.

The appeal for information concerned only the MM case from which the genie had already been released from the bottle. See Saunokonoko 2019

 

[Mex]

So he wasn't already prime murder suspect in 2020? Everything the prosecutor said indicated he was.

From the link provided
Snip
German police said in June 2020 that MM was assumed dead and that CB was probably responsible for her disappearance.

 

[mrjitty]

I found it interesting that hearsay evidence is allowed and also that court procedures are so different from ours

RSBM

In the common law system, the judge reviews the evidence in order to determine what will be allowed to go to the Jury - this process often uses complicated evaluations and precedents. The rules and exceptions to hearsay are one example.

In the German system, there is no jury, so no need for the Judges to exclude evidence from themselves. Rather they go back to first principles in terms of the risks of hearsay evidence - as would happen in an english judge alone trial.

So though the whole question of admissibility is not so important - in the end the result and assessment of hearsay evidence would be much the same.

 

[Lyall0814]

My understanding of the German process is very much on a par with yours so I think we are both "hypothetically speaking".
But I think you are way off track in thinking that the defence can veto charges.

Snip

Prosecution​

The first phase of a German criminal prosecution is pre-trial investigation to determine if there are grounds for a formal indictment. If a prosecutor determines that there is, the case is transferred to the appropriate German court, where the presiding judge decides if the evidence warrants a trial. This contrasts markedly from the US, where a judge will have little or no knowledge of the facts of a case until evidence has been introduced in the courtroom.

Pleas & Evidence​

Formal pleas of “guilty” or “not guilty” do not exist in German trials. An accused party can’t plead guilty in order to receive a lesser punishment. Hearsay evidence and, under certain conditions, depositions of absent witnesses can be admitted as evidence in a German court. The attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence can be compelled.

German Law and the German Legal System | How To Germany

Discover the intricacies of the German legal system and learn how to navigate the law in Germany. Get tips from expert expats on complying with German law and understanding the legal system.

howtogermany.com

I found it interesting that hearsay evidence is allowed and also that court procedures are so different from ours -
Snip
Though he has the duty of defending the accused to the maximum of his ability, a German lawyer is not as active in court as an American or British lawyer may be. In a German trial, the judge, not the defense counsel or the prosecutor, obtains the testimony of the witnesses. After the judge is finished, the prosecutor and the defense counsel will be permitted to question witnesses. The aim is to obtain the truth from witnesses by direct questioning rather than through the examination and cross-examination.
---------------------------------------

I think the present court hold up is nothing to do with evidence and all to do with jurisdiction which I think must have been challenged, hence the delay.
My opinion

I didn't say anything about defence vetoing charges. (Groovy idea though )

 

[Lyall0814]

They did continue with the investigation into the five separate incidents and took them as far as the trial stage.

The appeal for information concerned only the MM case from which the genie had already been released from the bottle. See Saunokonoko 2019

Personally I think it's Der Spiegel folks need to see. Imo it's possible they told the prosecutors they planned to publish what was going on. "We've waited long enough" they may well have said. So the investigation had to go public.

 

[Lyall0814]

From the link provided
Snip
German police said in June 2020 that MM was assumed dead and that CB was probably responsible for her disappearance.

Probably? When has Wolters ever used that word? You're having a laugh.

 

[Mex]

Probably? When has Wolters ever used that word? You're having a laugh.

Nope no laughs, I am quoting a cite providing information regarding the situation in 2020. By 2020 more evidence clarified the situation.