Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Okapi]

We’re not privy to the prosecution evidence, but if they say they have it, they must have something specific, and this evidence implicates CB in the disappearance of MM. I personally doubt that the BKA are trying to hammer a square into a round hole for the sake of ‘solving’ the case.

The prosecutors haven’t pinned CB for the IG case, with its similarities of a blonde toddler that vanished into thin air, and evidence that CB was in the vicinity. A case which I would wager they are desperate to solve as it concerns a German child.

In fact, a spokesperson for the Stendhal prosecutor’s office was emphatic in ruling CB out of involvement in the IG disappearance. The spokesperson was (imo tellingly) specific that prosecutors had no evidence against CB for three crimes in relation to IG (bbm).

‘Police investigations have been conducted but they have not produced any facts to suggest that Christian B. could have abducted, abused or killed IG. ‘

HCW has been specific on one of those crimes in relation to MM. ‘We have been quite clear throughout that we are investigating a murder and have evidence for that.’

My own opinion.

Christian Brueckner is ruled out of probe into missing German girl

Police 'launch search for Madeleine McCann's body in the Algarve

 

[RichardKimble]

We’re not privy to the prosecution evidence, but if they say they have it, they must have something specific, and this evidence implicates CB in the disappearance of MM. I personally doubt that the BKA are trying to hammer a square into a round hole for the sake of ‘solving’ the case.

, HCW never publicly stated there was compelling evidence to show he committed those crimes in relation to the five charges which were laid and have been dropped for now ,evidence was gathered statements taken behind the scenes.There was obviously more evidence to proceed outwith the glare of the public (press) than there is in relation to MM.imo

 

[Hygge]

I watched an interview with KF, BILD, mostly about HeB but at minute 38:40 he says: yesterday there was a decision about jurisdiction which the Braunschweig District Court had rejected. ( yesterday then was Wednesday or Thursday, video is 5 days old) No idea if it’s true, because we haven’t heard anything.

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[Okapi]

, HCW never publicly stated there was compelling evidence to show he committed those crimes in relation to the five charges which were laid and have been dropped for now ,evidence was gathered statements taken behind the scenes.There was obviously more evidence to proceed outwith the glare of the public (press) than there is in relation to MM.imo

I agree, they are ready and waiting to go to court for the other 5 cases. For the MM case they don’t appear to be.

 

[Lyall0814]

I watched an interview with KF, BILD, mostly about HeB but at minute 38:40 he says: yesterday there was a decision about jurisdiction which the Braunschweig District Court had rejected. ( yesterday then was Wednesday or Thursday, video is 5 days old) No idea if it’s true, because we haven’t heard anything.

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Definitely doesn't sound like good news for the public prosecutor's office does it. Bild are being quite merciless. (It is Bild though, who are professional mischief makers)

(Autotranslate is convinced English journalists shot HeB )

 

[Mex]

Nope no laughs, I am quoting a cite providing information regarding the situation in 2020. By 2020 more evidence clarified the situation.

That should read - By 2022 more evidence clarified the situation.

 

[Hygge]

Definitely doesn't sound like good news for the public prosecutor's office does it. Bild are being quite merciless. (It is Bild though, who are professional mischief makers)

(Autotranslate is convinced English journalists shot HeB )

Although it is Bild KF is normally good informed about the case. All I want is justice first for the other victims. The trials should happen now in July. I feel sorry for them.

 

[Lyall0814]

Although it is Bild KF is normally good informed about the case. All I want is justice first for the other victims. The trials should happen now in July. I feel sorry for them.

Absolutely but if the prosecutors are making a hash of proceedings then the truth should be told.

The Bild journalist (Kai Feldhaus) also says HeB has not been in any kind of witness protection. Even autotranslate makes that very clear.

 

[Mex]

, HCW never publicly stated there was compelling evidence to show he committed those crimes in relation to the five charges which were laid and have been dropped for now ,evidence was gathered statements taken behind the scenes.There was obviously more evidence to proceed outwith the glare of the public (press) than there is in relation to MM.imo

It is obvious there was supporting evidence in all five cases which are on the back burner until jurisdiction is sorted out, because without evidence charges could not have been laid or a progression to trial in undertaken.

This jurisdiction issue is indeed a strange process when one thinks about it. The main federal states about which I have a sprinkling of knowledge are in the USA.
I can see why jurisdiction would be a big issue there.
Snip
Twenty-seven states across America still have the death penalty.
They are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky. Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wyoming.

American death map: Which US states have capital punishment and who uses it the most?

Many object to the inconsistency with which the US death penalty is applied across the country

www.independent.co.uk

The more I think about the situation re CB in Germany the more perplexed I become about this very successful ploy which has knocked five prosecutions off the justice schedule.

What I am seeing is a criminal being allowed to determine his preference for who will prosecute him. None of the crimes for which CB was due to be prosecuted took place in any German State.

That's my opinion.

Anyone with any ideas how this protects his right to a fair trial? particularly if his last known address is registered as Braunschweig .

 

[Mex]

Absolutely but if the prosecutors are making a hash of proceedings then the truth should be told.

The Bild journalist (Kai Feldhaus) also says HeB has not been in any kind of witness protection. Even autotranslate makes that very clear.

I think the system is being manipulated by the defence rather than the prosecutors making a hash of things over which they have no power.
The defence are using a loophole. It exists and can be legitimately used. The prosecution cannot do anything about that.
My opinion

 

[Lyall0814]

I think the system is being manipulated by the defence rather than the prosecutors making a hash of things over which they have no power.
The defence are using a loophole. It exists and can be legitimately used. The prosecution cannot do anything about that.
My opinion

They've been investigating for six years though. It didn't just happen overnight. But it's impossible for us to know the truth about what's been going on isn't it - even the Bild journalists don't know. How can we?

 

[Lyall0814]

It is obvious there was supporting evidence in all five cases which are on the back burner until jurisdiction is sorted out, because without evidence charges could not have been laid or a progression to trial in undertaken.

This jurisdiction issue is indeed a strange process when one thinks about it. The main federal states about which I have a sprinkling of knowledge are in the USA.
I can see why jurisdiction would be a big issue there.
Snip
Twenty-seven states across America still have the death penalty.
They are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky. Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wyoming.

American death map: Which US states have capital punishment and who uses it the most?

Many object to the inconsistency with which the US death penalty is applied across the country

www.independent.co.uk

The more I think about the situation re CB in Germany the more perplexed I become about this very successful ploy which has knocked five prosecutions off the justice schedule.

What I am seeing is a criminal being allowed to determine his preference for who will prosecute him. None of the crimes for which CB was due to be prosecuted took place in any German State.

That's my opinion.

Anyone with any ideas how this protects his right to a fair trial? particularly if his last known address is registered as Braunschweig .

It's not just the death penalty issue. Different DAs in the same town or city will see the same evidence in different ways, and it'll be the same with prosecutors and judges in Germany. One set of prosecutors might think what a bunch of witnesses have to say is very important. Another set of prosecutors might think there's no case there at all. FF knows that of course.

 

[Mex]

They've been investigating for six years though. It didn't just happen overnight. But it's impossible for us to know the truth about what's been going on isn't it - even the Bild journalists don't know. How can we?

We can only speculate and as time goes on I have been thinking about cui bono regarding the proposed venue for these five trials which were up and ready to go.

If it is solely a procedural objection - why is it taking so long to be sorted out? and in a federal State ultimately governed as a whole is it so important for defence lawyers to pick and chose a trial venue.
Initially I put it down to a stalling procedure because there is no doubting that has been the result so far. But given the passage of time without resolution I think there is more to it than that.

 

[Mex]

It's not just the death penalty issue. Different DAs in the same town or city will see the same evidence in different ways, and it'll be the same with prosecutors and judges in Germany. One set of prosecutors might think what a bunch of witnesses have to say is very important. Another set of prosecutors might think there's no case there at all. FF knows that of course.

I understand what you are saying but at the end of the day FF doesn't have a crystal ball ensuring he will get a softer team of prosecutors through a change of venue.
What he would be assured of is the continuity of the BKA and the evidence which will follow whatever the venue decided is, some of which we know to be very powerful indeed.
My opinion

 

[Lyall0814]

I understand what you are saying but at the end of the day FF doesn't have a crystal ball ensuring he will get a softer team of prosecutors through a change of venue.
What he would be assured of is the continuity of the BKA and the evidence which will follow whatever the venue decided is, some of which we know to be very powerful indeed.
My opinion

I think it's very likely it's got nasty between the prosecutors, judges and lawyers representing CB. It's got personal, but it's very likely been personal since June 2020, that appeal and the subsequent media campaign. Campaign is a polite word. FF would possibly use the word propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised if lawyers all over Germany are as furious about the conduct of this case as FF is.

Based on what we know the case against CB re: MM is very weak (putting it politely). So CB's lawyers are unlikely to cooperate in the prosecution of the other cases while the prosecutors are still proceeding with the MM investigation and their client is still being described as a child murderer in media all over Europe, and by the prosecutor's spokesperson.

 

[mrjitty]

Although it is Bild KF is normally good informed about the case. All I want is justice first for the other victims. The trials should happen now in July. I feel sorry for them.

It is obvious there was supporting evidence in all five cases which are on the back burner until jurisdiction is sorted out, because without evidence charges could not have been laid or a progression to trial in undertaken.

This jurisdiction issue is indeed a strange process when one thinks about it. The main federal states about which I have a sprinkling of knowledge are in the USA.
I can see why jurisdiction would be a big issue there.
Snip
Twenty-seven states across America still have the death penalty.
They are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky. Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wyoming.

American death map: Which US states have capital punishment and who uses it the most?

Many object to the inconsistency with which the US death penalty is applied across the country

www.independent.co.uk

The more I think about the situation re CB in Germany the more perplexed I become about this very successful ploy which has knocked five prosecutions off the justice schedule.

What I am seeing is a criminal being allowed to determine his preference for who will prosecute him. None of the crimes for which CB was due to be prosecuted took place in any German State.

That's my opinion.

Anyone with any ideas how this protects his right to a fair trial? particularly if his last known address is registered as Braunschweig .

The thing to understand about procedural rules and challenges is they exist to protect the overall integrity of the system

You can always make the argument that we should ignore the procedure in a single instance because of the merits of the case. But then what is the point of jurisdiction rules at all if the prosecution can simply ignore them when more convenient.

So these types of issues will tend to be decided on based on the merits of the procedural arguments, not the actual merits of the case.

Also note that CB/FF is not determining jurisdiction. The Court is the one to decide.

Finally as to why this exists - this is not a "ploy" as you put it. As a federal republic, the germans have rules as to which court has jurisdiction which is very important. For instance if you were all the time in Bayern, but then you get prosecuted in Berlin despite none of the conduct happening there, that can be an abuse of process which is quite unfair to the defendant due to relative resources.

Now in the present case, on the merits it is obviously somewhat arbitrary whether Braunschweig or Magdeburg has jurisdiction - but the Court is not allowed to throw away the jurisdiction rules anytime it feels like it, otherwise the integrity of jurisdiction would be damaged.

Especially we should not be wanting to change all the rules just for this case. Rather the prosecutor should simply file in the correct court.

 

[mrjitty]

I think the system is being manipulated by the defence rather than the prosecutors making a hash of things over which they have no power.
The defence are using a loophole. It exists and can be legitimately used. The prosecution cannot do anything about that.
My opinion

To be clear this isn't a loophole.

Germany has rules about where prosecutions need to be filed.

Prima facie, 'wohnsitz" governs all legal obligations in germany. i.e you are required to be registered at an address, and then that is determinative for all purposes and interactions with the state.

However in practice, people may become non-resident and forget or fail to de-register. This was clearly the case here. CB left and did not do the process to deregister.

As such, both prosecution and defence are entitled to argue which state he should be regarded as resident in. That is a factual question, and so far the courts prefer FFs interpretation.

So this is a rather a procedural/technical question rather than a loophole.

ie. the prosecutor has filed in the wrong court.

 

[Mex]

I think it's very likely it's got nasty between the prosecutors, judges and lawyers representing CB. It's got personal, but it's very likely been personal since June 2020, that appeal and the subsequent media campaign. Campaign is a polite word. FF would possibly use the word propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised if lawyers all over Germany are as furious about the conduct of this case as FF is.

Based on what we know the case against CB re: MM is very weak (putting it politely). So CB's lawyers are unlikely to cooperate in the prosecution of the other cases while the prosecutors are still proceeding with the MM investigation and their client is still being described as a child murderer in media all over Europe, and by the prosecutor's spokesperson.

My opinion is that this is not a matter of personalities - it is a matter of law. Some may see it as a squabble and some may see it as an interruption to due process.

I know of at least one dismayed woman whose long awaited rape trial has been postponed by this legal argument and I find that hard enough. The thought that as you say it could be personal is just abhorrent.
My opinion.

 

[RichardKimble]

If the prosecutors have got the residency wrong, which one would think to be a simple matter , what else have they?

 

[Mex]

The thing to understand about procedural rules and challenges is they exist to protect the overall integrity of the system

You can always make the argument that we should ignore the procedure in a single instance because of the merits of the case. But then what is the point of jurisdiction rules at all if the prosecution can simply ignore them when more convenient.

So these types of issues will tend to be decided on based on the merits of the procedural arguments, not the actual merits of the case.

Also note that CB/FF is not determining jurisdiction. The Court is the one to decide.

Finally as to why this exists - this is not a "ploy" as you put it. As a federal republic, the germans have rules as to which court has jurisdiction which is very important. For instance if you were all the time in Bayern, but then you get prosecuted in Berlin despite none of the conduct happening there, that can be an abuse of process which is quite unfair to the defendant due to relative resources.

Now in the present case, on the merits it is obviously somewhat arbitrary whether Braunschweig or Magdeburg has jurisdiction - but the Court is not allowed to throw away the jurisdiction rules anytime it feels like it, otherwise the integrity of jurisdiction would be damaged.

Especially we should not be wanting to change all the rules just for this case. Rather the prosecutor should simply file in the correct court.

The argument all seems to stem from what was CB's last known address in Germany.

I think that is something which is proving rather difficult to ascertain and has been under discussion prior to it becoming an issue in 2023.

Snip
7 June 2020

Revealed: Inside the last-known address of Madeleine McCann suspect CB before he was jailed for drug offences in Germany​

• Christian Brueckner, now 43, left the apartment in Braunschweig, Germany
• Brueckner is the key suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in 2007
• Apartment is last-known address Brueckner lived in before went to prison in Kiel

Last-known address of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner

The apartment in Braunschweig, Germany, was reportedly left a mess when Christian Brueckner moved out. Brueckner is the key suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

www.dailymail.co.uk