Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

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  • #461
The things is CB was not registered as living in Nuewegersleben at the box factory. If I remember correctly his last registered address, where state receipts would show him receiving financial support from the government was at one of the allotments, I can't remember the name but I think it was the one south of Braunschwieg, not the one searched in Seelze.

Usually you can't be registered at allotments and summer houses as they are not permanent dwellings. A lot of people live at them but are registered somewhere else.

Basically there is a gray market in germany of people not actually living where they are registered.

So he might have been living there and getting post but I doubt he was registered there
 
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  • #462
Bolded - That is the standard under s203 StPO



In order to indict, the standard under s 170 must be met



So in summary, the prosecutor will not indict, and the trial will not be held without a likelihood of conviction - which is broadly similar to the UK
Which is why the court affirmed the suspicions…. I just don’t see the opportunity to find nuance or context change via the courts statement. I think the simple reality is that when the jurisdictional technicality is sorted, the cases will inevitably end up in a court room. To your other point, German prosecutors only charge when the chances of conviction outweigh the chances of an acquittal. The details of the evidence remain confidential within that legal system, iMO there’s been no indication that the evidence is insufficient for convictions, much to the contrary actually. That said, it is very interesting to read all of the extensively thought out counter arguments & new ideas/scenarios to suggest CB is innocent or won’t have to pay for any of the individual crimes he’s the prime suspect for.

If there wasn’t a jurisdictional loophole that benefitted transients I don’t think we’d be having to have this conversation today.

My opinion.
 
  • #463
For me it does matter in which court the cases are heard. All the work has been carried out by prosecutors in Braunschweig, not to pass on to another jurisdiction but to progress it through the trial stage and beyond.

Two thoughts from me
Firstly FF's move for a change of court was from a defence which had seriously run out of options and played the jurisdiction card as a last resort delaying tactic.
Bearing in mind that the defence are in possession of all the case files and are very well aware of what they are up against.
I'm betting that no one was as surprised as FF when the judge went along with it.

Secondly - I too have pondered as you have, that there might be an ulterior motive surrounding the delay in resolving the venue for the trial. But without embarking into conspiracy theory country few of the notions I've come up with are tenable.
Agree. The jurisdictional issue becomes a loophole for transient members of society, but only a loophole to more time. IMO it’s perhaps a negative aspect of their law because some benefit whereas the majority of others don’t. I think FF’s plan was - wait for the evidence files, wait for the courts feedback, if there’s a strong prosecution case play the technicality card, if there’s a weak prosecution case don’t play the technicality card. I think there’s an argument for CB living in any of a number of places , so regardless of the area the prosecution started in IMO if the prosecutions’ cases were strong FF would have gone after the jurisdictional technicality. Evidently they possibly could have been prosecuted in Braunschweig, just as CB was in the DM case & case appeal. JMO
 
  • #464
The problem I foresee is that if defence wins the right to have the 5 pending charges moved to another jurisdiction, such as Magdeburg, then they could also appeal CB's right to be tried in Portugal should charges be pressed in MM case. Germany can already be accused of breaching CB's human rights by keeping him in solitary confinement for several months.
As Braunschweig have been gathering evidence against CB in the MM case, I'm not sure how much of that CB's defence would be able to have excluded under the Portuguese system (should the case get that far) if Braunschweig aren't deemed to be the correct jurisdiction for the other 5 cases. It could potentially all turn into a potential minefield of legal arguments over the collection of evidence but I don't profess to being an expert in such matters.

Thanks Misty I think your reasoning on that point is borne out by the inordinate length of the delay in trying to ascertain where the accused in the five cases was was living.

Should have been simple enough - but apparently not so.

MM's case was always going to be a fraught one fought with no holds barred but the symbiotic relationships evident here really have taken it into the realm of fantasy.
My opinion
 
  • #465
I disagree entirely that the prosecution have failed in any way whatsoever. The defence have used the system about which the prosecution has no power except the power to appeal.
My opinion
Agree. Some have a tendency to overthink the significance of a jurisdictional technicality & turn it into some elaborate argument about the prosecution <modsnip>
The simplest hypothesis is normally the right one. IMO when the area that has jurisdiction is settled, that prosecution will take lead & the cases will then progress towards trial. I’m at odds with what would motivate one to try to make it seem more than what it actually is. JMO
 
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  • #466
It's not about my theories it's about MM and CB .
Forgive me, that’s a non sequitur. You asked ‘Why is it important for the defence to have it moved?’ And volunteered ‘I can only come up with a couple of solutions into why CB's legal team need to establish a different place of domicile.’ Then you dismissed your own query.

Which was a pity, because I was genuinely stumped trying to think what purpose it served the defence to delay court on the basis of the jurisdiction technicality.

ETA Mr Jitty has explained it for me.

I must add that I do actually agree with sticking to the letter of the law and filing in the correct court.
 
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  • #467
Forgive me, that’s a non sequitur. You asked ‘Why is it important for the defence to have it moved?’ And volunteered ‘I can only come up with a couple of solutions into why CB's legal team need to establish a different place of domicile.’ Then you dismissed your own query.

Which was a pity, because I was genuinely stumped trying to think what purpose it served the defence to delay court on the basis of the jurisdiction technicality.

ETA Mr Jitty has explained it for me.

I must add that I do actually agree with sticking to the letter of the law and filing in the correct court.
BIB , then one must wonder why the Braunschweig office carried on , FF is quoted as saying he first raised it at a preliminary hearing , they carried on risking a Federal intervention which could have resulted one would think in a mistrial.FF Quoted below from a link I posted earlier.

The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction.

'For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened. This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.
 
  • #468
CB is incarcerated until 2026, if time is a factor why would the Braunschweig office appeal to keep the case? Let's say CB was convicted on at least one count of rape, give him 10 yrs tagged on at the end of 2026, it makes no odds whether he's tried this year, 2024, 2025 or even 2026, where does stalling for time factor in .
 
  • #469
RSBM

This is just basic litigation tactics. If you can get the other side's case struck out pretrial, you do it.
Do you think by raising the jurisdiction issue , it's a step to get the charges completely struck off?
 
  • #470
BIB , then one must wonder why the Braunschweig office carried on , FF is quoted as saying he first raised it at a preliminary hearing , they carried on risking a Federal intervention which could have resulted one would think in a mistrial.FF Quoted below from a link I posted earlier.

The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction.

'For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened. This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.
Yes there was a scrap over it by defence and prosecution. For reasons unknown to us. All may still be revealed, even incidentally, when these cases come to court.

But as posited upthread by Mr J, it is likely par for the course tactics.

I would be interested to know details of similar cases thrown out because of the jurisdiction quibble. As some of the links given seemed to suggest it has happened before in the ‘not a biggie’ sense.
 
  • #471
To what end, if it goes to trial and CB is convicted then any sentence will be added on at the end of 2026 one would venture, so the argument for delay only works if there is a protracted argument over whose jurisdiction is responsible and it drags on into 2026, Braunschweig might be best served to let it lie.

The problem I foresee is that if defence wins the right to have the 5 pending charges moved to another jurisdiction, such as Magdeburg, then they could also appeal CB's right to be tried in Portugal should charges be pressed in MM case. Germany can already be accused of breaching CB's human rights by keeping him in solitary confinement for several months.
As Braunschweig have been gathering evidence against CB in the MM case, I'm not sure how much of that CB's defence would be able to have excluded under the Portuguese system (should the case get that far) if Braunschweig aren't deemed to be the correct jurisdiction for the other 5 cases. It could potentially all turn into a potential minefield of legal arguments over the collection of evidence but I don't profess to being an expert in such matters.

I just don't see it has solely a residency issue, your post explains reasoning why it might not be, always a bigger picture.
 
  • #472
I would be interested to know details of similar cases thrown out because of the jurisdiction quibble. As some of the links given seemed to suggest it has happened before in the ‘not a biggie’ sesense.
Indeed, let's not forget it was a court that decided after hearing legal argument, not FF. There would likely have been previous case law that was used.
 
  • #473
CB is incarcerated until 2026, if time is a factor why would the Braunschweig office appeal to keep the case? Let's say CB was convicted on at least one count of rape, give him 10 yrs tagged on at the end of 2026, it makes no odds whether he's tried this year, 2024, 2025 or even 2026, where does stalling for time factor in .
I must admit I was surprised by how short CB’s sentences were for the previous CSA convictions. Imo the HaB rape trial is likely to pose the threat of the lengthiest prison sentence.

I’m not sure if I’ve understood your question, but if ‘why would the prosecution stall for time?’ relates to the sake of time itself…well obviously another decade increases the opportunity for allegiances to unravel, other investigations to marry up, remains to be discovered and, with the caveat it is an infinitesimally small chance as I think @onemoremiletogo suggested, a confession to emerge from the defendant.

If you are asking if the prosecution is stalling for another reason? Idk. Perhaps there’s a degree of kudos as you suggest, although they will certainly underpin the investigation if it switches to another prosecution team. Tbh I can’t think of anything that isn’t ‘we never landed on the moon’ stuff.

If it is the norm for Germany to prosecute its citizens for crimes committed in other countries, I don’t foresee the defence being able to switch the MM case to Portugal? But I’m not across the legalities. I wonder if there is precedent there too?

All moo.
 
  • #474
I must admit I was surprised by how short CB’s sentences were for the previous CSA convictions. Imo the HaB rape trial is likely to pose the threat of the lengthiest prison sentence.

I’m not sure if I’ve understood your question, but if ‘why would the prosecution stall for time?’ relates to the sake of time itself…well obviously another decade increases the opportunity for allegiances to unravel, other investigations to marry up, remains to be discovered and, with the caveat it is an infinitesimally small chance as I think @onemoremiletogo suggested, a confession to emerge from the defendant.

If you are asking if the prosecution is stalling for another reason? Idk. Perhaps there’s a degree of kudos as you suggest, although they will certainly underpin the investigation if it switches to another prosecution team. Tbh I can’t think of anything that isn’t ‘we never landed on the moon’ stuff.

If it is the norm for Germany to prosecute its citizens for crimes committed in other countries, I don’t foresee the defence being able to switch the MM case to Portugal? But I’m not across the legalities. I wonder if there is precedent there too?

All moo.
I think Fuslcher's comment that you could order a drink of holy water in Hell before [his client] would confess to anything is one we can take as, literally, true. (Apart from the figuarative allusion to 'ordering a drink of holy water in hell')

Brueckner attempted to deny dna proof of his guilt of the crime he is now in prison for.

He will happily spin the 'jurisdiction' card to get off the rap for any of the crimes he is now suspected of but not convicted for including, of course, crimes against Madeleine. And Fulschner is up for the scrap to squeeze as much mileage from all that as he can.
 
  • #475
Forgive me, that’s a non sequitur. You asked ‘Why is it important for the defence to have it moved?’ And volunteered ‘I can only come up with a couple of solutions into why CB's legal team need to establish a different place of domicile.’ Then you dismissed your own query.

Which was a pity, because I was genuinely stumped trying to think what purpose it served the defence to delay court on the basis of the jurisdiction technicality.

ETA Mr Jitty has explained it for me.

I must add that I do actually agree with sticking to the letter of the law and filing in the correct court.
Me too.
The present delay appears to be deciding which one that is in accordance with the set criteria. In CB's case it is obviously a more complex conundrum than previously thought verified by the time it is taking for resolution.

I'm not sure we or the courts will ever find out the truth of the matter.
My opinion
 
  • #476
I think Fuslcher's comment that you could order a drink of holy water in Hell before [his client] would confess to anything is one we can take as, literally, true. (Apart from the figuarative allusion to 'ordering a drink of holy water in hell')

Brueckner attempted to deny dna proof of his guilt of the crime he is now in prison for.

He will happily spin the 'jurisdiction' card to get off the rap for any of the crimes he is now suspected of but not convicted for including, of course, crimes against Madeleine. And Fulschner is up for the scrap to squeeze as much mileage from all that as he can.
Yes, I’d forgotten about that holy water statement, setting the stall out. And the splitting hairs.
 
  • #477
Me too.
The present delay appears to be deciding which one that is in accordance with the set criteria. In CB's case it is obviously a more complex conundrum than previously thought verified by the time it is taking for resolution.

I'm not sure we or the courts will ever find out the truth of the matter.
My opinion
It is a great pity to see the cases knocked into limbo, but I am hoping that the post upthread by @Hygge IIRC means the matter will be settled within the next few weeks. And it’s off to court we go.
 
  • #478
BIB , then one must wonder why the Braunschweig office carried on , FF is quoted as saying he first raised it at a preliminary hearing , they carried on risking a Federal intervention which could have resulted one would think in a mistrial.FF Quoted below from a link I posted earlier.

The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction.

'For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened. This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.
I have no doubt that the defender is speaking the truth as far as he sees it but it all depends on what he considers are the preliminary proceedings.

I posted a link previously which dates that as September 2022.

CB was not formally charged with the five serious crimes until October 2022.

Snip
Brückner's defender, the Kiel star lawyer FF (38) has doubted the jurisdiction of the district court. The public prosecutor's office deduced it from the fact that the suspect had his last registered residence in Germany in Braunschweig in 2016. That, says Fülscher, is not enough.

"As early as September 2022, I informed the public prosecutor's office in writing that, in my opinion, jurisdiction was assumed on the basis of incorrect legal considerations. The Federal Court of Justice has long since ruled that it does not matter where a defendant is registered to establish a place of residence. Before his arrest abroad, the accused last lived on his property in Neuwegersleben," the defense lawyer told BILD. In the small town in Saxony-Anhalt, Brückner owned a dilapidated warehouse.
 
  • #479
I have no doubt that the defender is speaking the truth as far as he sees it but it all depends on what he considers are the preliminary proceedings.

I posted a link previously which dates that as September 2022.

CB was not formally charged with the five serious crimes until October 2022.

Snip

Brückner's defender, the Kiel star lawyer FF (38) has doubted the jurisdiction of the district court. The public prosecutor's office deduced it from the fact that the suspect had his last registered residence in Germany in Braunschweig in 2016. That, says Fülscher, is not enough.

"As early as September 2022, I informed the public prosecutor's office in writing that, in my opinion, jurisdiction was assumed on the basis of incorrect legal considerations. The Federal Court of Justice has long since ruled that it does not matter where a defendant is registered to establish a place of residence. Before his arrest abroad, the accused last lived on his property in Neuwegersleben," the defense lawyer told BILD. In the small town in Saxony-Anhalt, Brückner owned a dilapidated warehouse.
I don't see a contradiction there.
FF would have known by September that charges were imminent and wrote to the Prosecutor about jurisdiction.
He did not raise the issue with the Court at that time as charges hadn't been laid.
The Prosecutor clearly chose to ignore the issue of jurisdiction and went ahead with the charges, which is why they are in the present situation
 
  • #480
DBM
 
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