Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Consider Dudley]

BIB

That is what i believed - a last step before charges

Especially I worried they were wading into an unholy mess but thought they must surely have a trump card to justify it. Now I am much less sure.

My position is similar. I’m still prepared to give them the benefit of thr doubt though, I’ve nothing to lose by doing so.

 

[Mex]

Yes but in that case a person is to be arrested, extradited and charged with a crime.

Without doubt no extradition was required. Despite the jurisdiction situation he was under arrest in Germany serving time for his past offenses. As far as indictments are concerned, CB was indicted for five counts of offences. These five offences against women and children mirrored those against women and children for which he is currently incarcerated. He was charged with all these crimes those both proven and those not yet allowed to proceed to trial.

If charged with offences against MM the circumstances would have reflected exactly the requirements as laid out in Red by Interpol. Just as the information published regarding CB reflects exactly what Interpol publish including for suspected murder.
The information is there for any who wish to make comparison.

 

[misty48]

Without doubt no extradition was required. Despite the jurisdiction situation he was under arrest in Germany serving time for his past offenses. As far as indictments are concerned, CB was indicted for five counts of offences. These five offences against women and children mirrored those against women and children for which he is currently incarcerated. He was charged with all these crimes those both proven and those not yet allowed to proceed to trial.

If charged with offences against MM the circumstances would have reflected exactly the requirements as laid out in Red by Interpol. Just as the information published regarding CB reflects exactly what Interpol publish including for suspected murder.
The information is there for any who wish to make comparison.

dbm

 

[mrjitty]

Without doubt no extradition was required. Despite the jurisdiction situation he was under arrest in Germany serving time for his past offenses. As far as indictments are concerned, CB was indicted for five counts of offences. These five offences against women and children mirrored those against women and children for which he is currently incarcerated. He was charged with all these crimes those both proven and those not yet allowed to proceed to trial.

If charged with offences against MM the circumstances would have reflected exactly the requirements as laid out in Red by Interpol. Just as the information published regarding CB reflects exactly what Interpol publish including for suspected murder.
The information is there for any who wish to make comparison.

Again the point is that where someone is charged with crimes, the nature of the charges are filed in court and publicly reported except in the rare case of court ordered suppression.

Where the person has not been charged, the prosecutor and law enforcement typically do not accuse the person of crimes, even where doing public appeals.

This is why Red Notices are not analogous to HCWs public appeal.

 

[mrjitty]

My position is similar. I’m still prepared to give them the benefit of thr doubt though, I’ve nothing to lose by doing so.

Personally I believe the media should place the prosecutor under scrutiny to clarify the situation. Braunschweig has made extraordinary claims. I have never came across a similar case where the suspect has been accused of murder in the media, yet not charged. It's incompatible with presumption of innocence IMO.

I'd always assumed the secret evidence was so strong as to justify it - but then where are the charges?

To my mind, something has gone wrong.

 

[Davieson]

My position is similar. I’m still prepared to give them the benefit of thr doubt though, I’ve nothing to lose by doing so.

What has anyone to lose on here anyway ?

 

[Mex]

Personally I believe the media should place the prosecutor under scrutiny to clarify the situation. Braunschweig has made extraordinary claims. I have never came across a similar case where the suspect has been accused of murder in the media, yet not charged. It's incompatible with presumption of innocence IMO.

I'd always assumed the secret evidence was so strong as to justify it - but then where are the charges?

To my mind, something has gone wrong.

Mr Jitty, you are absolutely and totally wrong when you claim you have never witnessed such incompatibility with the presumption of innocence in relation to the death of a child. You have - as have we all.

 

[mrjitty]

I personally can't think of a case where the prosecutor held a press conference saying the suspect definitely did a murder, but then didn't charge the suspect.

IIRC others in the thread mentioned a UK case where the police came close to saying as much.

 

[mrjitty]

Mr Jitty, you are absolutely and totally wrong when you claim you have never witnessed such incompatibility with the presumption of innocence in relation to the death of a child. You have - as have we all.

Please link to where I claimed this?

I spoke specifically of a prosecutor accusing someone of murder in the media, without charging. I've never seen it from DA, CPS etc

Maybe someone can post an example.

The reason why it is not done is presumption of innocence places burden on prosecution to prove guilt in Court. It sidesteps that if prosecution can allege guilt in the media then not charge

ETA

Frankly it would be quite bizarre for CPS to announce someone was guilty of murder before a charging decision was made.

 

[RichardKimble]

I personally can't think of a case where the prosecutor held a press conference saying the suspect definitely did a murder, but then didn't charge the suspect.

IIRC others in the thread mentioned a UK case where the police came close to saying as much.

The nearest in the UK is the Lamplugh case,Cannan was named as a suspect ,twice it went to the CPS, both being knocked back amongst reasons being the suspect and victim cannot be placed together, evidence from the first investigation was either lost ignored or not used in the second investigation.

 

[Consider Dudley]

What has anyone to lose on here anyway ?

I don’t know but the stridency with which some are determined to scorn the German investigation and HCW in particular indicates a certain need to win at something, or at least to have been proven to have had greater insight at the outset than others.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Personally I believe the media should place the prosecutor under scrutiny to clarify the situation. Braunschweig has made extraordinary claims. I have never came across a similar case where the suspect has been accused of murder in the media, yet not charged. It's incompatible with presumption of innocence IMO.

I'd always assumed the secret evidence was so strong as to justify it - but then where are the charges?

To my mind, something has gone wrong.

How can the media place HCW under any greater scrutiny without forcing him to reveal his hand (which he is obviously never going to until it is judicious to do so, not at the media’s haranguing)?

 

[Okapi]

I have been wondering if an accusation without charge has happened in other cases in Germany, but can’t seem to find anything. The Lamplugh one is a good example in the UK.

 

[Okapi]

How can the media place HCW under any greater scrutiny without forcing him to reveal his hand (which he is obviously never going to until it is judicious to do so, not at the media’s haranguing)?

I’m sure I’ve read at least one media interview in which HCW expressed irritation that his remarks were completely misconstrued in another media interview.

 

[mrjitty]

The nearest in the UK is the Lamplugh case,Cannan was named as a suspect ,twice it went to the CPS, both being knocked back amongst reasons being the suspect and victim cannot be placed together, evidence from the first investigation was either lost ignored or not used in the second investigation.

Interesting.

A key difference there is he was actually arrested and questioned over many days.

The decision to name him as the 'only suspect' was 'unprecedented'. Braunschweig's comments of course have gone far beyond this.

In an unprecedented move, Scotland Yard said Cannan, 48, who is serving three life sentences, was the "only suspect" for the abduction and killing of Miss Lamplugh, 25, in Fulham, west London.

Police name man who 'killed Suzy Lamplugh'

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Consider Dudley]

There are numerous examples of people accused of very serious crimes by the authorities who have never had official charges brought or even been apprehended. Several high profile terrorists for one thing.

 

[mrjitty]

How can the media place HCW under any greater scrutiny without forcing him to reveal his hand (which he is obviously never going to until it is judicious to do so, not at the media’s haranguing)?

For instance by covering the extraordinary situation, considering historical/legal precedent for it, and seeking comment from public officials?

By holding public officials up for scrutiny, we can ensure that such steps are not taken lightly in future, and there could at least be some public debate on when such steps are justified?

 

[mrjitty]

There are numerous examples of people accused of very serious crimes by the authorities who have never had official charges brought or even been apprehended. Several high profile terrorists for one thing.

International and State sponsored terrorism is a good example, but is also subject to special legislation and police powers

 

[Consider Dudley]

For instance by covering the extraordinary situation, considering historical/legal precedent for it, and seeking comment from public officials?

By holding public officials up for scrutiny, we can ensure that such steps are not taken lightly in future, and there could at least be some public debate on when such steps are justified?

Well that's a job for the German media (their legal system, their officials), however it's been argued that so in thrall to the McCanns are the international media that no outlet dares question the current investigation for fear of upsetting them. Personally I think that's hogwash but the idea persists. The fact that there does not appear to be huge public outcry about the way CB has been treated amongst German citizens and/or their media is either an indicator of complete German apathy to important matters such as POI and holding public officials to account, or that perhaps things are trucking along as they usually do in Germany. I'm not best placed to call it either way, maybe someone who is German who resides in Germany can comment?

 

[Lyall0814]

I don’t know but the stridency with which some are determined to scorn the German investigation and HCW in particular indicates a certain need to win at something, or at least to have been proven to have had greater insight at the outset than others.

If we can't say that after three years how many extra years do we need to wait until we're allowed to?