Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Consider Dudley]

It's also not uncommon for investigators to make mistakes when they are primarily relying on 'confession' evidence.

My point was more to do with the apparent proclomation of guilt of a suspect pre charges and pre trial, citing this case as an exmple where it has happened recently. I believe a few weeks back we were challenged to provided just such examples?

 

[Lyall0814]

My point was more to do with the apparent proclomation of guilt of a suspect pre charges and pre trial, citing this case as an exmple where it has happened recently. I believe a few weeks back we were challenged to provided just such examples?

Fair enough. I'm sure it happens but how many times does it happen and they still haven't charged the suspect three years later? There will surely be very few examples of that.

 

[RichardKimble]

Fair enough. I'm sure it happens but how many times does it happen and they still haven't charged the suspect three years later? There will surely be very few examples of that.

The case being shown as an example has had a cold case investigation resulting in an arrest and charges, only then naming him.

 

[Consider Dudley]

The case being shown as an example has had a cold case investigation resulting in an arrest and charges, only then naming him.

The proclomation by the police came prior to charges being laid I believe. Surely the principle of claiming guilt prior to a guilty verdict is the issue here?

 

[Consider Dudley]

Fair enough. I'm sure it happens but how many times does it happen and they still haven't charged the suspect three years later? There will surely be very few examples of that.

Only the John Canaan / Suzy Lamplugh case springs to mind. There was also the Daily Mail claiming the guilt of various individuals in the Stephen Lawrence Case and they were never sued for libel, nor did their front page headline preclude a fair trial taking place for those subsequently charged.

 

[Okapi]

He also said we have no other results, so that can just about ,if not rule out hard evidence.

30 odd threads are an aside, no sign of charges after 6 yrs of investigating, 3 yrs of those after naming a suspect what does that tell you?

It honestly tells me nothing. The case may be resting on fluff. Or everything could be hinging on one more evidence base. We won’t know until the prosecutor plays his cards, and I think they will focus on the other five charges first. All we can do in the meantime is speculate and bang our spoons on the table, hey?

 

[Lyall0814]

Only the John Canaan / Suzy Lamplugh case springs to mind. There was also the Daily Mail claiming the guilt of various individuals in the Stephen Lawrence Case and they were never sued for libel, nor did their front page headline preclude a fair trial taking place for those subsequently charged.

<modsnip - personalizing> It is possible to admire them for starting the investigation while also being critical of how the investigation has proceeded you know. They're not machines. They make mistakes just like investigators everywhere. Clearly they are desperate for their theory about what happened to Madeleine to be correct, and clearly they want to keep him imprisoned for as long as possible - very likely understandably. But sometimes it just impossible to achieve your aim because the evidence just isn't there. There's no disgrace in that. Same thing happens to investigators everywhere.

 

[Okapi]

interesting that the US police officer announcing the arrest of the alleged Gilgo Beach serial killer in NY last week described him at the press conference as “a demon that walks among us, a predator that ruined families” He also said of the suspect (who has since been charged): “If you have destroyed multiple families and taken a loved one away from them, in my eyes you’re a monster. I don’t care how vulgar or harsh it sounds, ask the families to have me put in a different phrase.”

So, rightly or wrongly it’s not that uncommon for the police to pass judgement on a suspect pre-trial.

I’ve not followed that case, but what makes your observation more interesting is that the suspect didn’t appear to have any prior convictions on which LE could base their colourful language.

 

[mrjitty]

interesting that the US police officer announcing the arrest of the alleged Gilgo Beach serial killer in NY last week described him at the press conference as “a demon that walks among us, a predator that ruined families” He also said of the suspect (who has since been charged): “If you have destroyed multiple families and taken a loved one away from them, in my eyes you’re a monster. I don’t care how vulgar or harsh it sounds, ask the families to have me put in a different phrase.”

So, rightly or wrongly it’s not that uncommon for the police to pass judgement on a suspect pre-trial.

Right but he’s been charged.

Charging is the way the state says we believe we have proof beyond reasonable doubt you are guilty.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Right but he’s been charged.

Charging is the way the state says we believe we have proof beyond reasonable doubt you are guilty.

AS I've already mentioned the police statement wrt to his guilt was I believe made after arrest but before charges were brought. What material difference does it make to whether or not it such a statement would prejudice a fair trial anyway?

 

[RichardKimble]

Right but he’s been charged.

Charging is the way the state says we believe we have proof beyond reasonable doubt you are guilty.

I was listening to a professor who was talking of how different states in the US have different benchmarks of what evidence is allowed, is it the same of different Jurisdiction s in Germanyy, is it known?

 

[frank-cole]

I was on an extreme anti forum yesterday...where every other post is..dogs don't lie. They have a fairly well educated German member..I asked her three times..do you think it's possible Wolters is lying....she refused to give a direct answer

Agree. They are grim places to go! I’ve noticed that there’s either an irrational issue with the German prosecutors & an attempted spin or dismissal of everything that’s been said or they’ll avoid anything related to CB.

CB becoming the sole prime suspect has antagonised many of them, a lot of it reads like overthought wishful thinking.

In the event of a CB conviction I’ll be intrigued by the reactions of the extreme antis. I think the level of denial & the level of trolling will actually increase if that happens. Sad but likely IMO

If these cases were about any other victims & the suspect wasn’t CB, IMO there’d never be the personal issues with the prosecutors, the considerably higher expectation of what would be deemed as incriminating evidence or the constructed overthought unrealistic counter arguments.

JMO

 

[Davieson]

Agree. They are grim places to go! I’ve noticed that there’s either an irrational issue with the German prosecutors & an attempted spin or dismissal of everything that’s been said or they’ll avoid anything related to CB.

CB becoming the sole prime suspect has antagonised many of them, a lot of it reads like overthought wishful thinking.

In the event of a CB conviction I’ll be intrigued by the reactions of the extreme antis. I think the level of denial & the level of trolling will actually increase if that happens. Sad but likely IMO

If these cases were about any other victims & the suspect wasn’t CB, IMO there’d never be the personal issues with the prosecutors, the considerably higher expectation of what would be deemed as incriminating evidence or the constructed overthought unrealistic counter arguments.

JMO

In that case probably best not to go there.

 

[Okapi]

Agree. They are grim places to go! I’ve noticed that there’s either an irrational issue with the German prosecutors & an attempted spin or dismissal of everything that’s been said or they’ll avoid anything related to CB.

CB becoming the sole prime suspect has antagonised many of them, a lot of it reads like overthought wishful thinking.

In the event of a CB conviction I’ll be intrigued by the reactions of the extreme antis. I think the level of denial & the level of trolling will actually increase if that happens. Sad but likely IMO

If these cases were about any other victims & the suspect wasn’t CB, IMO there’d never be the personal issues with the prosecutors, the considerably higher expectation of what would be deemed as incriminating evidence or the constructed overthought unrealistic counter arguments.

JMO

I know we’re not meant to rely on psychic insights, but Frank, you’re psychic ;-)

In all seriousness, if the evidence emerges to convict CB, there probably will be opposition to it from some quarters. Perhaps that very likelihood is another reason for a delay in the investigation, as the prosecution is mindful of the need to secure unequivocal evidence. Jmo.

 

[mrjitty]

AS I've already mentioned the police statement wrt to his guilt was I believe made after arrest but before charges were brought. What material difference does it make to whether or not it such a statement would prejudice a fair trial anyway?

I checked the NYT summary

It seems likely the arrest was pursuant to an arrest warrant from the Court (i.e. probable cause standard met) - so we don't know exactly when the indictment dropped - just that the statement was made pre-arraignment

In any case there seems to be only a day or so in it so not something that troubles me overly.

One way these kinds of statements pre-arrest/pre-charge can prejudice the trial is in some of the evidence that such statements are based on turned out not to be admissible.

But what the person has said here is not likely to be much worse than is written in the arrest warrant which are generally public

 

[mrjitty]

I’ve not followed that case, but what makes your observation more interesting is that the suspect didn’t appear to have any prior convictions on which LE could base their colourful language.

They based their language on probable cause he did multiple murders pursuant to the arrest warrant.

 

[Consider Dudley]

I checked the NYT summary

It seems likely the arrest was pursuant to an arrest warrant from the Court (i.e. probable cause standard met) - so we don't know exactly when the indictment dropped - just that the statement was made pre-arraignment

In any case there seems to be only a day or so in it so not something that troubles me overly.

One way these kinds of statements pre-arrest/pre-charge can prejudice the trial is in some of the evidence that such statements are based on turned out not to be admissible.

But what the person has said here is not likely to be much worse than is written in the arrest warrant which are generally public

I beg to differ. I doubt the suspect was described as a demon and a monster in the arrest warrant.

 

[Davieson]

I beg to differ. I doubt the suspect was described as a demon and a monster in the arrest warrant.

Ah well, that's American hyperbole for you. Probably sentence him to several hundred years in prison as well, unless they execute him.

 

[Mex]

It honestly tells me nothing. The case may be resting on fluff. Or everything could be hinging on one more evidence base. We won’t know until the prosecutor plays his cards, and I think they will focus on the other five charges first. All we can do in the meantime is speculate and bang our spoons on the table, hey?

It is highly likely that the jurisdiction issue and the five cases awaiting trial as a direct result is causing a delay in the MM case.

Why would anyone rush to judgement in the above circumstances particularly as it seems more investigation is being conducted or where the subsequent trial venue will be.

I do not understand why the prosecutors are being criticised for delays which are not their fault, probably no one is more concerned than they are to get these cases moving.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

<modsnip - personalizing post and response to it removed>
the prosecutors have told us they have evidence to name CB as the prime suspect in MM's case.

We know they have evidence in the five cases awaiting trial.

<modsnip - response to quoted post>