Magnotta March Prelim Hearing & Trial Day 1 - Sep 29, 2014 - Thread #1

[Sillybilly]

Never met a felon I liked until Mr. Rubert :floorlaugh:

 

[Rayemonde]

The man is a disgusting predator, who went hunting for a vulnerable young boy - and got an even more ruthless predator!

 

[Kamille]

Never met a felon I liked until Mr. Rubert :floorlaugh:

He's certainly a character. :floorlaugh:

Not sure that tangling with him is doing Leclair or LM any favours though. I personally think he's just showing the jury how this particular segment of the male gay population live their lives. Decadent, criminal and deviant. It's not a mental illness, it's a lifestyle. And it perpetuates with the company they keep. Whom they meet mostly online or in racy gay clubs. And their level of deviance continues to drop with every encounter they have with someone who's willing to sink lower than they have.

FR is a pedophile. He's admitted to putting on a show of mental illness to get out of going to prison for his actions. And that it worked. He also said he can recognize real mental illness. He did not say he saw it in LM. Nor it appears did Leclair ask...for a reason. He does not know the answer to that question and he learned his lesson with some of the others he put to FR. That exchange has to be damning to the defence. It's not something I would forget if I were on the jury.

I wonder if the prosecution can do a re-cross on that one point alone. Just ask that question. "Since you claim to have spent time in a mental facility Mr Rubert, and that you can recognize real mental illness, did you see it in Luka Magnotta while he was staying with you?"

MOO

 

[Kamille]

The man is a disgusting predator, who went hunting for a vulnerable young boy - and got an even more ruthless predator!

You'd think he might have set off some delusions in LM if he really was schizophrenic and abused in the past. He was being rejected by this man. And he likely knew why. LM's appearance and need for attention and adoration is everything to him. And yet he didn't harbour any ill will towards him. They used each other. Still not relevant to the trial unless someone in that courtroom points this out.

MOO

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Michele Mandel ‏@MandelSun · 57s58 seconds ago
Rubert says they were in these bars and #Magnotta was generous with his cash. He even wanted to go back the day he was arrested.

amy minsky ‏@amyminsky · 46s47 seconds ago
Rubert: If #Magnotta gives away his money, that's his business.

amy minsky ‏@amyminsky · 46s47 seconds ago
Talking about when #Magnotta passed his friend 50 euro, Rubert says he wouldn't give a stranger 50 euro just cause it's his b-day.

amy minsky ‏@amyminsky · 46s47 seconds ago
Talking about when #Magnotta passed his friend 50 euro, Rubert says he wouldn't give a stranger 50 euro just cause it's his b-day. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
A lot because you weren't working at the time? I'm always working, witness says

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Witness says inherited from aunt 500,000 euros. 50 euro is nothing for me.

amy minsky ‏@amyminsky · 1m1 minute ago
(... But Rubert brought a stranger into his house and said earlier he'd given #Magnotta a set of keys to his house)

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 32s32 seconds ago
Defence suggests the inheritance was the following year. Witness says got it from great-aunt, even got money from grandmother

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 31s32 seconds ago
Witness doesn't know how much money #Magnotta brought into the apt and if someone offers him 50 euro, he'll take it, rich or poor.

Steven Chmielash ‏@s_chmielash · 39s40 seconds ago
Rubert: when someone says to take it. I take it then. Even if I'm rich. #magnotta said had money and would get more from friend who left him

Michele Mandel ‏@MandelSun · 39s40 seconds ago
#Magnotta trial done for day. X-exam continues tomorrow.

BBM - do we know where LM got this money??? Did he have access to JL's bank account?

 

[Kamille]

So did LM really tell FR that he was lost and needed help? Or is that how it came out in the translation? I wish we could see the transcript of the conversation that brought these two together. But because they were both using google translate, as we saw today with the tweets, you can't count on anything to be a true account of what the conversation actually was.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

He's certainly a character. :floorlaugh: ...

FR is a pedophile ...

Oh yeah ... I should have been more clear wrt "liking" him ... I don't like pedophiles, I don't like his lifestyle of crime and predatory behaviour, but I like what he did on the stand .. standing up to Leclair, throwing some crap back at him, and yes, pointing out that folks can cling to the psychiatric story to get out of going to jail.

I wonder if FR will be met by the authorities when he returns home ... for admitting to fraud upon the court :biggrin:

 

[maxfactor]

Never met a felon I liked until Mr. Rubert :floorlaugh:

Ya, he's a hoot!! I bet there are going to be more witnesses like that too. Thanks sillybilly and Kamille for the tweets!!!

 

[oenophile]

I personally think he's just showing the jury how this particular segment of the male gay population live their lives. Decadent, criminal and deviant. It's not a mental illness, it's a lifestyle. And it perpetuates with the company they keep. Whom they meet mostly online or in racy gay clubs.

This is simply homophobic talk. There is nothing deviant about meeting people online, or even meeting people for sex. LM approached him, he let LM stay because he felt sorry for the guy. This isn't a lifestyle. Gay people sometimes go to gay bars and go online because that is where you meet other gay people. Simple as that.

FR is a pedophile.

There is absolutely no evidence of this. If you have any to introduce, please do so.

[edited to add: didn't see the part where he was convicted of sexual abuse of a minor, which is indeed possible evidence of him being a pedophile, albeit not conclusive without further details]

 

[Sillybilly]

There is absolutely no evidence of this. If you have any to introduce, please do so.

<rsbm>

It seems the "evidence" was presented in a German courtroom. This afternoon's tweets from today's reporters in the Quebec courtroom (posted upthread, and presumably Mr. Leclair can back up his assertions):

Stephane Giroux &#8207;@SGirouxCTV · 35s36 seconds ago
1996, Rubert found guilty of sexual abuse of a minor. Did 2 and a half years in jail.

Shuyee Lee &#8207;@sleeCJAD · 33s34 seconds ago
Went to prison for sex with minor? Witness says sometimes people present themselves differently in a chat

suemontgomery &#8207;@MontgomerySue · 44s44 seconds ago
Rubert also convicted of sexual abuse of children. He's saying some people present themselves differently in chats. kids online

PS: Kamille's post was wrt "this particular segment of the male gay population" referring to folks like FR and LM, not the population in general. That's my take anyway, fwiw.

 

[oenophile]

<rsbm>

It seems the "evidence" was presented in a German courtroom. This afternoon's tweets from today's reporters in the Quebec courtroom (posted upthread, and presumably Mr. Leclair can back up his assertions):

If those are indeed true, then that is sufficient for me. Where I had issues was with the Leclair portraying this as Rubert seeking out a "boy" when he thought LM was 22/23. Nonetheless, it is worth having more details as to what "sexual abuse of a minor" is in this case before labeling someone a pedophile.

PS: Kamille's post was wrt "this particular segment of the male gay population" referring to folks like FR and LM, not the population in general. That's my take anyway, fwiw.

I think it is very offensive to say that meeting people online and going to gay bars is indicative of being deviant. For decades or longer gay people had been forced to meet other gay people out of the public eye, in bars and the such. With the advent of the internet, it has become the more popular place to meet, because of its discretion. Gay people still get beaten up because they go into a gay bar.

 

[newone]

He's certainly a character. :floorlaugh:

Not sure that tangling with him is doing Leclair or LM any favours though. I personally think he's just showing the jury how this particular segment of the male gay population live their lives. Decadent, criminal and deviant. It's not a mental illness, it's a lifestyle. And it perpetuates with the company they keep. Whom they meet mostly online or in racy gay clubs. And their level of deviance continues to drop with every encounter they have with someone who's willing to sink lower than they have.

FR is a pedophile. He's admitted to putting on a show of mental illness to get out of going to prison for his actions. And that it worked. He also said he can recognize real mental illness. He did not say he saw it in LM. Nor it appears did Leclair ask...for a reason. He does not know the answer to that question and he learned his lesson with some of the others he put to FR. That exchange has to be damning to the defence. It's not something I would forget if I were on the jury.

I wonder if the prosecution can do a re-cross on that one point alone. Just ask that question. "Since you claim to have spent time in a mental facility Mr Rubert, and that you can recognize real mental illness, did you see it in Luka Magnotta while he was staying with you?"

MOO

You raise some excellent points especially with regards to behavior in that milieu. Just because the witness lives an edgier lifestyle he has his own 'standards' and a strong survival instinct. Like you, I hope prosecution asks him a few final questions too about whether or not LM appeared 'dangerous' or mentally ill.

 

[newone]

I appreciated the candor of today's witness - he provided a lot of insight.

 

[Kamille]

This is simply homophobic talk. There is nothing deviant about meeting people online, or even meeting people for sex. LM approached him, he let LM stay because he felt sorry for the guy. This isn't a lifestyle. Gay people sometimes go to gay bars and go online because that is where you meet other gay people. Simple as that.



There is absolutely no evidence of this. If you have any to introduce, please do so.

[edited to add: didn't see the part where he was convicted of sexual abuse of a minor, which is indeed possible evidence of him being a pedophile, albeit not conclusive without further details]

There was nothing homophobic intended in my comment and I apologize if it read that way. I am referring to the segment of the gay male population who engage in criminal activity like prostitution, illegal drugs, fraud, pedophilia, rape, assault, murder etc. and find each other through online sites and racy clubs to perpetuate this criminal and deviant behaviour with others of like mind. LM was obviously trolling around the deep web and likely was encouraged by what he saw and read down there to want to do this "film". Of course there is a segment of people from all sexual orientations that engage in the same deviant criminal behaviour but today's testimony happened to be from a gay male. I just didn't see the point in Leclair pointing out this kind of behaviour by FR. It had nothing to do with why LM killed JL a week earlier and I didn't think FR's testimony had done anything other than to help with the how and why LM got to Berlin where he was eventually captured. Why Leclair had to completely rake this guy over the coals for everything he's ever done in his life, including allegedly "taking" 50 Euro from his client to have sex with a "young Turkish boy" in a club is beyond me. Like I said, he was helping to point out (to me) that LM is seemingly normal (with the exception of a possible personality disorder) and just lives this type of "lifestyle" based on the people he surrounds himself with...perhaps easily influenced. Just like a lot of other gay men (gay women and straight men/women as well).

MOO

 

[newone]

For me, today's witness shone a very bright light onto a world unbeknownst to me.

 

[Kamille]

You raise some excellent points especially with regards to behavior in that milieu. Just because the witness lives an edgier lifestyle he has his own 'standards' and a strong survival instinct. Like you, I hope prosecution asks him a few final questions too about whether or not LM appeared 'dangerous' or mentally ill.

Exactly. As he pointed out, he has been "taken" by people before whom he has met online. He obviously lives an "edgy" life as you put it and has likely met all kinds of questionable characters he distanced himself from. He has spent time in a mental facility (which by his own admission was a farce to get out of going to prison for the sex with a minor conviction) and he claims to know real mental illness when he sees it. He did not suspect there was anything amiss with LM.

None of this testimony was solicited by the prosecution. It was solicited by LM's attorney for reasons that are a mystery to me. :waitasec:

MOO

 

[newone]

Exactly. As he pointed out, he has been "taken" by people before whom he has met online. He obviously lives an "edgy" life as you put it and has likely met all kinds of questionable characters he distanced himself from. He has spent time in a mental facility (which by his own admission was a farce to get out of going to prison for the sex with a minor conviction) and he claims to know real mental illness when he sees it. He did not suspect there was anything amiss with LM.




None of this testimony was solicited by the prosecution. It was solicited by LM's attorney for reasons that are a mystery to me. :waitasec:

MOO

Would it be sad and scary IF LM's attorney intimates that this sector in general is ''prone'' to mental illness! or rather it is prevalent?

 

[Kamille]

Would it be sad and scary IF LM's attorney intimates that this sector in general is ''prone'' to mental illness! or rather it is prevalent?

That would be sad if that's the spaghetti (throw everything up against the wall to see what sticks) type of defence he goes for. Not to mention a complete disservice to people with mental illness.

The type of mental illness he's claiming his client has and was suffering from when he murdered JL is manageable with medication. LM refused to take medication apparently. That was his decision. It is also not a given that people with paranoid schizophrenia who are un-medicated, are going to have the urge to kill and follow through on it either. Especially not in a way that they plan it with precision, have a dry run (I guess the pet video scandal is the first dry run) with another unsuspecting victim, announce it to their loyal followers on the deep web that the "film" exists before it does, commit and video tape a horrific "shock and awe" murder, edit and upload the "film" within hours of the crime and then consciously know that the correct thing to do after all of this is done is to meticulously dispose of the evidence, write notes as someone else and mail body parts to political offices and schools for an even bigger "shock and awe" experience, buy a return plane ticket to Paris, get all the cash you have out of wherever it is you keep it and leave the country without any intention of coming back on the scheduled return date because you are now running and hiding from the law and googling yourself to see if they've figured out where you might be. That sounds like way more than someone suffering from a psychotic episode would be able to do. And every time Leclair tries to discredit witnesses because his client has told him something different about the event, it just shows that LM was completely aware of everything he was doing at all times...well at least to me anyway.

"You got me"...not something a mentally ill person who committed a crime in a psychotic state would usually say to arresting officers IMO.

MOO

 

[oenophile]

There was nothing homophobic intended in my comment and I apologize if it read that way. I am referring to the segment of the gay male population who engage in criminal activity like prostitution, illegal drugs, fraud, pedophilia, rape, assault, murder etc. and find each other through online sites and racy clubs to perpetuate this criminal and deviant behaviour with others of like mind. LM was obviously trolling around the deep web and likely was encouraged by what he saw and read down there to want to do this "film".

This really wasn't trolling around the deep web, they met on a rather mainstream gay website (we aren't talking about www.findmygayslaveinberlin.com or something like that). There was nothing deviant about what FR was doing, esp considering that he did not initiate contact. Prostitution and illegal drugs are common in all segments of society. As as far as I know, there is not a "segment" that engages in fraud, rape, assault, and murder. There are only individuals that do. This perpetuates a negative stereotype that harms gay people.

Why Leclair had to completely rake this guy over the coals for everything he's ever done in his life, including allegedly "taking" 50 Euro from his client to have sex with a "young Turkish boy" in a club is beyond me.

He is trying to discredit the witness and make it seem like he lured LM. It seems to me the opposite is true, LM knew exactly what he is doing. He manipulated FR, rather clumsily, and FR was trying to push him out the door.

 

[Little Jedi]

Big Thanks Again for all the updates !
:biggrin:

For people who haven't followed this case from the beginning or just for quick reference, here's a few points which might be useful.

These specifically show that in NO WAY was this any 'psychotic break'

All these quotes are taken from various articles at 'Best Gore'
Obviously I'm not going to link directly but can be found there by a 'Luka Magnotta' search.

I would NOT advise anyone to go there due to the graphic content ![/]

*The Video itself is NOT available at the request of Police*

The video first appeared on Best Gore, this is freely available not in the 'deep web'

Here's some various snippets of info. taken from there about it:

" Best Gore was the first to publish the 1 Lunatic 1 Ice Pick video outside the deep web. I received it on May 25, 2012 and posted it on the same day.

However the video was “announced” on YouTube as early as May 15, 2012.

It contains nothing but the same still image of the murderer wearing a hoodie with only lips, mouth and hair sticking out as he holds an Ice Pick, while leaning forward with a Casablanca poster on the wall behind him, as was included at the end of the 1 Lunatic 1 Ice Pick video."

" It would appear that at the end of the video the perp posted a photo of himself. It’s difficult to recognize the person from it clearly, but still – reach of the internet is wide and can’t be underestimated. Perhaps someone who sees this video on Best Gore recognize that guy? If you do recognize him, please contact authorities immediately because this video doesn’t appear to be fake at all."

" Luka Magnotta’s internet fame as a cat killer started in December of 2010 after a video of an, at the time unknown man putting two kittens into an airtight bag and attaching it to a vacuum cleaner surfaced.

Follow up pictures showing a male simulating sex with dead kittens were posted a few weeks later. An analysis of pictures’ EXIF data helped to identify the serial number of a Panasonic camera with which the photos were taken. Through further digging, the owner of the camera was traced down and his name revealed – Luka Rocco Magnotta, born as Eric Clinton Newman in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Things got quiet around Luka Magnotta for a while, but waters were stirred again in November 2011 after a video of a pet kitten fed to a Burmese Python was posted on the internet. Few days later, another video in which a cat taped to a broom handle is drowned in a bath tab was posted and the internet hunt for all things Luka Magnotta was reignited again. Information that’s already out there does seem to suggest that Luka Magnotta could easily be the type of guy who may perpetrate a crime like that seen in the 1 Lunatic 1 Ice Pick video. Is the internet overreacting or do we have a psychotic killer living in our neighborhood?"



"Days before the Canadian police named Luka Magnotta a suspect, we had his name pinned down on Best Gore, after the community analyzed the footage and compared every fine detail with available information. As clues kept coming together, they eventually offered a pretty clear picture that the perpetrator was the same man who previously posted videos of kitten killings and that eventually lead us to the name of Luka Magnotta.

As soon as we had that name pinned down and we knew the guy was from Canada, the findings were reported to the Toronto police. The authorities, at the time, did not find the information credible and did not follow up on it. Few days later, severed foot was delivered to Tory HQ in Ottawa."