Malaysia airlines 370 with 239 people on board, 8 March 2014 #25

[marlywings]

A reminder to all members...

As with all cases on WS, if you state something as fact or copy/paste from another site, then you need to include a relevant link to support that information. IF it is just your opinion then you need to include, for example, "in my opinion".

And please leave out the snark or your posts will be removed.

 

[Kimster]

Arguably, the aircraft could have been parked on the ground or floating on water with the APU running until 8AM. All that is known, is that these pings reportedly came from MH370 and lasted until 8AM.

I'd like to see a link to this, or did I miss it already? Sorry if it was already posted.

 

[2rose]

Arguably, the aircraft could have been parked on the ground or floating on water with the APU running until 8AM. All that is known, is that these pings reportedly came from MH370 and lasted until 8AM.

I'd like to see a link to this, or did I miss it already? Sorry if it was already posted.

No you did not miss it ... NO reference link was ever posted indicating that the Inmarsat raw data could have reflected a stationary MH370 parked on the ground.

But here is an article that contradicts the statement that MH370 could have been stationary for 5 hours between 3am & 8am on 8 March 2014.

http://www.getconnected.aero/2014/03/inmarsat-confirms-mh370-pass-signals-satellite/

The “classic aero” services enable satellite-aided air traffic control (ATC)
when the aircraft is out of VHF range.

This statement reiterates that the MH370 Satcom was only enabled once the aircraft was further than the 200 mile radar radius of an Air Traffic Control Tower (typically found at all airports).
This logically infers that the airplane could not have been within the airspace of Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand or Indonesia.

The Wall Street Journal has reported that Malaysia Airlines’ missing jet transmitted its location repeatedly to satellites over the course of five hours after it disappeared from radar.
...
they had used the Doppler effect to calculate the aircraft’s direction. That is, they must have compared the received frequency from the aircraft with the known transmitted frequency. The small difference between the two would indicate if the aircraft was moving towards or away from the satellite.
...
Some news sources have said that they looked at the “speed” of the signals, but that is not true. All electromagnetic signals travel at the speed of light – it is the frequency that changes if the transmitter and receiver are moving relative to each other, similar to the “red shift” seen with galaxies that are moving away from us.

So if the plane had landed anywhere & was stationary for the 5 hours during which it communicated the handshake signals, then ALL the handshakes would have had the SAME frequency. But that was NOT the case for MH370!

Inmarsat compared the BFO for a number of flights & they also sent their research to a number of peers for review. After the release of the Inmarsat raw data, the once critical scientists on the Duncan Steel website also now support Inmarsat's theory..

It is hard to believe that SO many learned scientists would not be able to tell the difference between
a 5 hour string of identical frequencies & a set of frequencies that changed over the 5 hour period.

Finally some mention has been made to an auxillary electrical power source ...
but this has nothing to do with the sound frequency emitted by a moving object.

A stationary object like a plane will return an expected received frequency which remains constant.
An everyday example of this is if you stand for 10 minutes beside a firetruck or police car which has it's siren blaring ... the noise will be constant without change during that time period.
However once the vehicle moves away from you, not only will the volume change,
but also the frequency you hear changes.
Over time, employees like firemen & policemen exposed to these sounds will be able to discern between a siren that is 2 blocks away from one that is 2 miles away.

Burst Frequency Offset measures the actual frequency of a moving object. So the fact there
was any BFO at all connected to MH370, means that the plane was moving & not stationary.
This data was transmitted from the plane through the ground station to the Inmarsat terminal,
so more than one record was created in different locations hundreds of miles apart.

 

[Rhyolite]

Originally Posted by 2rose "It is hard to believe that SO many learned scientists would not be able to tell the difference between
a 5 hour string of identical frequencies & a set of frequencies that changed over the 5 hour period."

It is pretty simple actually. If you hear a train whistle for a minute or so as it moves down the track toward and past you, you have a point of reference. The tone is 1200 Hz as it approaches you, 1000 Hz as it is next to you, and 800 Hz as it moves away. From that you can derive a +200 then -200 Hz doppler shift. The tone of the whistle, you can assume was 1000 Hz,

In this case we have a half dozen short "pips" over 7 hours where a variance of 1 hz could result in a huge location error, An assumption is being made that the Burst Frequency Offset (BFO) Bias (error) was 88 Hz based upon what it was when the aircraft was taxiing for take off. The oscillator while very stable, is only stable over a range of operating temperatures which would NORMALLY be expected in the operation of the aircraft. The data does not account for normal drift over 7 hours of flight nor can it account for the worst case of temperature extremes that an aircraft having a cabin fire or decompression or fire then decompression would endure.

There is a lot of debate going on, not only about the BFO, but about the Burst Timing Offset (BTO). IMO This plane will be found by debris washing up, not by satellite data.

 

[2rose]

There is a lot of debate going on

I do not want to be drawn into a debate concerning the final location of MH370
because as I have often stated, that is something that I agree is uncertain.
Can we please stick to the current point we are discussing which
concerns whether the plane was airborne or parked for 5 hours

The oscillator while very stable, is only stable over a range of operating temperatures which would NORMALLY be expected in the operation of the aircraft. The data does not account for normal drift over 7 hours of flight nor can it account for the worst case of temperature extremes that an aircraft having a cabin fire or decompression or fire then decompression would endure.

How does this affect your statement that MH370 could
have been parked during the 5 hours of handshakes ?

Are you now arguing that the plane was on fire for 5 hours while it was parked
on the ground ... followed by an extreme period of cold ground weather ?

Can you cite any reference that would indicate why a satellite would
continue a 5 hour communication with a plane once it had landed ?

What kind of event would finally make the satellite cease communication
after a 5 hour period of plane parking ?

 

[Rhyolite]

I do not want to be drawn into a debate concerning the final location of MH370
because as I have often stated, that is something that I agree is uncertain.
Can we please stick to the current point we are discussing which
concerns whether the plane was airborne or parked for 5 hours



How does this affect your statement that MH370 could
have been parked during the 5 hours of handshakes ?

Are you now arguing that the plane was on fire for 5 hours while it was parked
on the ground ... followed by an extreme period of cold ground weather ?

Can you cite any reference that would indicate why a satellite would
continue a 5 hour communication with a plane once it had landed ?

What kind of event would finally make the satellite cease communication
after a 5 hour period of plane parking ?

Here is exactly what I said, just as you quoted above:

""Quote Originally Posted by Rhyolite View Post
Arguably, the aircraft could have been parked on the ground or floating on water with the APU running until 8AM. All that is known, is that these pings reportedly came from MH370 and lasted until 8AM.""

I see no reason to further debate this. You can read or re-read my previous posts about the ambiguity of the doppler data, the APU power systems and you will find my posts are clear.

 

[2rose]

Here is exactly what I said, just as you quoted above:

""Quote Originally Posted by Rhyolite View Post
Arguably, the aircraft could have been parked on the ground or floating on water with the APU running until 8AM. All that is known, is that these pings reportedly came from MH370 and lasted until 8AM.""

I see no reason to further debate this. You can read or re-read my previous posts about the ambiguity of the doppler data, the APU power systems and you will find my posts are clear.

Well then in my opinion, I find it clear that your statement that the plane could have
been landed during the 5 hours of satellite handshakes HAS ABSOLUTELY NO VALIDITY
<modsnip>

 

[marlywings]

Bumping up this post for anyone who may have missed it....

A reminder to all members...

As with all cases on WS, if you state something as fact or copy/paste from another site, then you need to include a relevant link to support that information. IF it is just your opinion then you need to include, for example, "in my opinion".

And please leave out the snark or your posts will be removed.

 

[Rhyolite]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5243942/ae-2014-054_mh370_searchareas.pdf

Title:

Final
MH370 - Definition of
Underwater Search Areas
Investigation
26 June 2014
External Aviation Investigation
AE-2014-054
- 26 June 2014

Page 33

Aircraft electrical system
The electrical system on the B777 supplies 115 V AC and 28 V DC power. The main power sources are a left integrated drive generator (IDG) and a right IDG, powered by the left and right engines respectively. An auxiliary power unit (APU) can supply power if either or both of the IDGs are unavailable. The SDU was powered by 115 V AC from the left AC bus which was normally supplied by the left IDG. If power from the left IDG was lost, then a bus tie breaker would close and power would be automatically transferred from the right AC bus. Similarly, if power was lost from the right AC bus, power would be automatically transferred from the left AC bus. This power switching is brief and the SDU was designed to &#8216;hold-up&#8217; during such power interruptions. To experience a power interruption sufficiently long to generate a log on request, it was considered that a loss of both AC buses or, a disabling of the automatic switching, would be required.

Note comments about APU which is used on ground, to power aircraft systems and start engines.

 

[LambChop]

When you are posting and you are posting an opinion please make sure you include either My Opinion Only (MOO) or Just My Opinion (JMO). This helps the reader establish that is may or may not be a fact but at this point it is an opinion only. If you are basing you observations on written material please include a link.

Thanks :happydance:

 

[Kimster]

Adding to Lambchop above, after you've seen the opinion and you still don't agree, sometimes it's best to just scroll along. :tyou:

 

[SouthAussie]

"The newly appointed Transport Minister, Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai ........said he would be going to China and Australia starting next week to meet his counterparts and to discuss the search mission.

Liow said he would leave for China after gathering all information from the relevant officers here and would then visit Australia to have a meeting with representatives from three countries to discuss the next course of action of this search mission."

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/12/MH370-Liow-Committed/


Hopefully this means that the ATSB have decided on a search company following the tender process, and they can get the search going again soon .... along with the Malaysian vessels/equipment that have committed to the search. Though I imagine that the winter weather is pretty terrible in the proposed search zone right now.

 

[SouthAussie]

This article says that Hishammuddin is still overseeing Malaysia&#8217;s search for MH370.

&#8220;Hishammuddin continues to oversee the Malaysia&#8217;s search for the missing Boeing 777 despite relinquishing the transport portfolio, which he had held in interim, to Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai last week.&#8221;

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...ustralian-counterparts-s#sthash.2aR3xcKL.dpuf

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Well the last few pages make for some serious reading. Any sign of those mangosteens yet? :gaah:

 

[Rhyolite]

Has anyone seen any more news on the low flying plane overflying the Maldives and the subsequent find of a fire bottle? Yes a fire bottle with a squib on top and very little corrosion as seen by the bare copper wires.

http://www.maldivesfinest.com/fire-suppression-bottle

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54178

 

[LambChop]

Has anyone seen any more news on the low flying plane overflying the Maldives and the subsequent find of a fire bottle? Yes a fire bottle with a squib on top and very little corrosion as seen by the bare copper wires.

http://www.maldivesfinest.com/fire-suppression-bottle

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54178

I thought I read that they had discounted it as coming from a 777 but not sure whether is was a poster or was reported by MSM. Have to see if I can find the post.

Early on MSM reported it was likely from an aircraft but did not specify a 777. In blogs with pilots reporting on the finding, the pilots all seemed to agree that it was not from a 777. It seems to me that this was also reported in an earlier post with a link to the manual that showed the fire extinguishers which are located in the cargo bay. I am unable to find it but maybe another poster will remember where it is or they may have access to the manual so we can repost it.

JMO

 

[2rose]

here is an article that contradicts the statement that MH370 could have been stationary for 5 hours between 3am & 8am on 8 March 2014.

http://www.getconnected.aero/2014/03/inmarsat-confirms-mh370-pass-signals-satellite/

The &#8220;classic aero&#8221; services enable satellite-aided air traffic control (ATC)
when the aircraft is out of VHF range.

This statement reiterates that the MH370 Satcom was only enabled once the aircraft was further than the 200 mile radar radius of an Air Traffic Control Tower (typically found at all airports).
This logically infers that the airplane could not have been within the airspace of Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand or Indonesia.

The Wall Street Journal has reported that Malaysia Airlines&#8217; missing jet transmitted its location repeatedly to satellites over the course of five hours after it disappeared from radar.
...
they had used the Doppler effect to calculate the aircraft&#8217;s direction. That is, they must have compared the received frequency from the aircraft with the known transmitted frequency. The small difference between the two would indicate if the aircraft was moving towards or away from the satellite.
...
Some news sources have said that they looked at the &#8220;speed&#8221; of the signals, but that is not true. All electromagnetic signals travel at the speed of light &#8211; it is the frequency that changes if the transmitter and receiver are moving relative to each other, similar to the &#8220;red shift&#8221; seen with galaxies that are moving away from us.

So if the plane had landed anywhere & was stationary for the 5 hours during which it communicated the handshake signals, then ALL the handshakes would have had the SAME frequency. But that was NOT the case for MH370!

Inmarsat compared the BFO for a number of flights & they also sent their research to a number of peers for review. After the release of the Inmarsat raw data, the once critical scientists on the Duncan Steel website also now support Inmarsat's theory..

It is hard to believe that SO many learned scientists would not be able to tell the difference between
a 5 hour string of identical frequencies & a set of frequencies that changed over the 5 hour period.

Finally some mention has been made to an auxillary electrical power source ...
but this has nothing to do with the sound frequency emitted by a moving object.

A stationary object like a plane will return an expected received frequency which remains constant.
An everyday example of this is if you stand for 10 minutes beside a firetruck or police car which has it's siren blaring ... the noise will be constant without change during that time period.
However once the vehicle moves away from you, not only will the volume change,
but also the frequency you hear changes. Over time, employees like firemen & policemen exposed to these sounds will be able to discern between a siren that is 2 blocks away from one that is 2 miles away.

Burst Frequency Offset measures the actual frequency of a moving object. So the fact there
was any BFO at all connected to MH370, means that the plane was moving & not stationary.
This data was transmitted from the plane through the ground station to the Inmarsat terminal,
so more than one record was created in different locations hundreds of miles apart.

Here are some more references which corroborate my previous input ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...695b50-b063-11e3-9627-c65021d6d572_story.html

&#8220;Our engineers looked at the time between the handshakes, and they realized
that the object wasn&#8217;t stationary under a satellite but moving away from it,&#8221;
Christopher McLaughlin, senior vice president of Inmarsat

The Duncan Steel website further indicates that IF the aircraft had been
stationary then the arcs based on the BTOs would all intersect at the
aircraft's stationary position ... & that is NOT what is seen in the existing MH370 data.

 

[time]

A tangent although I'm not ruling out terrorism of some fort in the missing plane. I believe this is the 4th time since April that someone has been kidnapped by Philippine militants.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11292908

The Philippine-based militant group Abu Sayyaf, which is believed to be affiliated with Al-Qaeda, was blamed for the abduction of 21 people -- including several foreign tourists -- from a Sabah diving resort in 2000.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/gunmen-attack-diving/1258496.html

And...
[h=2]Wisma Putra: 15 Malaysian ISIS militants allegedly killed in Syria[/h]http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/wisma-putra-15-malaysian-isis-militants-killed-in-syria

 

[SouthAussie]

Has anyone seen any more news on the low flying plane overflying the Maldives and the subsequent find of a fire bottle? Yes a fire bottle with a squib on top and very little corrosion as seen by the bare copper wires.

http://www.maldivesfinest.com/fire-suppression-bottle

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54178

No, I think it was dispelled pretty quickly .. but as with all rumoured sightings/evidence, authorities have not publicly addressed it (that I can find).

On pprune, an installer of aircraft fire suppression bottles thought that it was not one as &#8230;

- it did not have a pressure gauge built into the side (to show full/partial charge)
- it did not have one or two threaded female couplers for the large-diameter piping that conducts the agent to the appropriate location when the bottle is discharged (coupler usually connects right below squib)
- it appeared to be made of a thicker gauge metal than is typical of aircraft fire bottles
- the flush-mounted threaded plug in one side was unusual
- the use of slotted mounting screws is not often seen in aircraft &#8211; usually mounted to the aircraft structure with bolts

This image from maldivesfinest shows what he means.




http://www.maldivesfinest.com/mh370-evidence


ETA: Other suggestions have been a mine (which the Maldives military have discounted), or a marine rebreather (which has not been discounted).

 

[Mr. Noatak]

No, I think it was dispelled pretty quickly .. but as with all rumoured sightings/evidence, authorities have not publicly addressed it (that I can find).

On pprune, an installer of aircraft fire suppression bottles thought that it was not one as …

- it did not have a pressure gauge built into the side (to show full/partial charge)
- it did not have one or two threaded female couplers for the large-diameter piping that conducts the agent to the appropriate location when the bottle is discharged (coupler usually connects right below squib)
- it appeared to be made of a thicker gauge metal than is typical of aircraft fire bottles
- the flush-mounted threaded plug in one side was unusual
- the use of slotted mounting screws is not often seen in aircraft – usually mounted to the aircraft structure with bolts

This image from maldivesfinest shows what he means.


View attachment 54800

http://www.maldivesfinest.com/mh370-evidence


ETA: Other suggestions have been a mine (which the Maldives military have discounted), or a marine rebreather (which has not been discounted).

My opinions only, no facts here:

The mystery object superficially resembles a single-squib fire bottle (used in aircraft cargo compartments) to which the pressure gauge has not been attached. It would have to be incompletely-assembled. However, I have not been able to find a commercial aircraft fire bottle that perfectly resembles it.

The object was never dispelled. As near as I can tell, it was never officially identified.

The mystery object does not fit into contemporary theories about the destination of MH-370, so it has been ignored by all but Maldives Finest newspaper who tried to get the local military to release official information (to no success by my knowlege).

Maybe it is part of a rebreather system and not a fire bottle. But that is not the real issue. The real issue is that, if this object was almost completely ignored by authorities investigating the disappearance of MH-370, what other flotsam has been likewise ignored?