Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

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I heard on CNN earlier that the arms being supplied by Russia to the separatists are the type that the Russian military no longer uses but that the Ukrainian military currently uses so that the finger can't be pointed back at Russia.

Not that Putin's involvement and machinations weren't already known prior to this tragedy, but I think now that innocent civilians have been killed, his support of the separatists and his government's role in the ongoing escalation of the conflict has outraged the global community.

I'm thankful for the world leaders who are striving toward a diplomatic solution to this crisis. May cool heads prevail.
 
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That is a very sad photo, people trying so hard to find the missing in a field of beautiful flowers

It really is. Beautiful, haunting and tragic.

VOX' Joseph Stromberg has done some calculations:
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/591519...tm_campaign=vox&utm_content=article-share-top

BBM

The people lost onboard MH17 represent approximately .0011 percent of the total Dutch population of 16.8 million.
Many more Americans were killed in the 9/11 attacks — 2,624 in total — but because the US population is so much larger (it was roughly 285 million in 2001), the death toll represented .0009 percent of the overall population.

President George Bush after 9/11
"I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon."

Dutch PM Mark Rutte:
"Much is unclear, an investigation should take place on a totally objective way ."

Hear, hear! Putin's lapdog repeating what His Master's Voice has just told him. Because this is Putin's text, if you had not noticed.
Maybe it is just as well that this total wimp is completely absent from the international discussion. He's the country's worst PM since whichever war you choose.
There is a lot of anger about him. A lot.

Bush made that statement FOUR DAYS after 9/11. And while I do think he expressed immediate anger and determination to get whoever was responsible, it was immediately very clear from the fact that two planes crashed into building around the same time, and from our intelligence that something was about to happen, that it was a terror attack and not a technical malfunction or pilot error.

Here's what Rutte has stated two hours after the attack:
The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, talked by telephone to Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko. “I am deeply shocked by the tragic news about the crash of flight MH17 of Malaysian Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over Ukrainian territory.” Rutte said. “A lot is still unclear about the facts, circumstances and passengers.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live
About 14 hours after the attack:
The Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte ordered flags fly at half mast on Netherlands government buildings earlier on Thursday, to mourn the 154 Dutch passengers killed. "The whole of the Netherlands is in mourning," he said. "This beautiful summer day has ended in the blackest possible way." http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live
One day after the attack:
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte on Friday told a news conference in The Hague: "The darkest scenario has become true, we have been hit by one of the biggest air disasters in Dutch history. The whole of the Netherlands is in shock by this extraordinary dramatic event. Our thoughts are with the relatives who are confronted with intense grief. Our empathy is with them," Rutte told a news conference in The Hague. Rutte said the Dutch government would look into the causes of the crash and take action if the aeroplane was found to have been shot down."The message of the cabinet is that we want to research what has happened, we want to determine who was behind this and I would like to quote my Australian counterpart: "If there were terrorists involved, if there were intentions, that somebody did this on purpose, then we want that everything be done to get those involved in court and that they will be punished accordingly." But we first have to take care that investigations can take place and can take place as objectively and as honestly as possible," he said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDJOug3u95A

In other news, this site has tons of photos of the victims and their stories. It's heartbreaking: http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysi...raine-near-russian-border-20140718-3c4nl.html
 
  • #768
I heard on CNN earlier that the arms being supplied by Russia to the separatists are the type that the Russian military no longer uses but that the Ukraine military currently uses so that the finger can't be pointed back at Russia.

Not that Putin's involvement and machinations weren't already known prior to this tragedy, but I think now that innocent civilians have been killed, his support of the separatists and his government's role in the ongoing escalation of the conflict has outraged the global community.

I'm thankful for the world leaders who are striving toward a diplomatic solution to this crisis. May cool heads prevail.

I agree. TBH Putin likes playing mind games just like another other government. And I don't think he supplied the rebels with the battery or anything special. Just enough so that the rebels have an even fight I feel.

But it is his support for the rebels that will be criticised. Like a politician said, he has the ability to stop these rebels. So Putin, do the damn honorable thing and have a bloody ceasefire! Damn u and the rebels!
 
  • #769
Yes one of the bloody pioneers of aids research is dead. Research in that area is gonna slow down now. Damn u rebels.

We can hope that Karma steps in!
 
  • #770
It's the guy who posted the pic of the plane before they took off, in case they disappeared. :(

Can I post the facebooks here now? There are beautiful pictures.

Is it Cor Pan and Neeltje Tol? If so, they have been named in media so I would think that's okay.
 

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  • #771
Personally, I think the whole Ukraine situation is a big tangled web. Not that I have any love for Putin, but the Ukrainian Govt has been extremely corrupt for years. They aren't exactly trustworthy in my eyes.

I have friends in kiev, haven't spoken in a awhile but non the less. When their sister, who lived in the states would send money by wire and the place it would show up at would go to her mom's house and she would invite them in for tea and sit and chat(because she had to.) After some conversation, it would be decided how much money had arrived and how much the deliverer should to paid. (shake down). She told me when she would go home to visit she would refuse to speak the language at the airport on check in just to pizz them off. Yeah and she would wash all the clothes she would take for family so she would not have to pay to bring them in the country. She didn't have much respect for the authorities there, that's for sure.
 
  • #772
I'm Dutch, hon. I know where I get my info.

So am I. My mother is from Holland and one half of my entire family lives there.
 
  • #773
Is it Cor Pan and Neeltje Tol? If so, they have been named in media so I would think that's okay.

Yes that is him, been to his fb page, he seemed to be a fun guy to be with. sad
 
  • #774
Dutch-French photographer Pierre Crom is at the location of the crash:

https://twitter.com/PierreCrom/status/490164054066212864



And off they go. No inspection done by OSCE today.
They were in Lugansk three days ago. You can feel the tension in the area from the following video.

[video=youtube;s4LhsE0dd7c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4LhsE0dd7c[/video]

Over 20 people killed there earlier this afternoon. Bombed by the Ukranian Army. RIP
 
  • #775
A shocking photograph released today by an Ukrainian official shows the harrowing image of an infant victim lying on its own in a field. The baby, who is pictured sprawled in the dirt near the crash site, is thought to be the youngest victim of the crash.

Ukraine government advisor Anton Gerashchenko, who published the picture, told Mr Putin that 'This baby's death is on your conscience.' The nationality of the infant is still unknown.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-killed-298-people-board.html#ixzz37qJPgYVo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
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They were in Lugansk three days ago. You can feel the tension in the area from the following video.

[video=youtube;s4LhsE0dd7c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4LhsE0dd7c[/video]


Over 20 people killed there earlier this afternoon. Bombed by the Ukranian Army. RIP

Are you sure it was the Ukranian government's army that's reported to have carried out the bombing? Or the Pro-Russian (and many are actually Russian) rebel army?

Just asking, because I don't know. :)
 
  • #778
Hi guys!

What a mess huh? Imo everything on this planet has agendas agendas. I am certainly not minimizing the families here. Yesterday, as it was breaking it was screaming info like it was known that it was intention.
IMO, the whole mess has to be taken in context. They had been shooting down aircraft for several days. They have been telling the world that this is their intention. There were tweets that said you fly over our area we will shoot you from the sky , and they started doing so this week.

From the recoding between the terrorists and Russia did <IMO, sound as if they were confused in terms of it was military or commercial. The questions asked , contextually, where indicative of confusion. The other dude did escalate as he was getting clarification (he cussed!) and it was clear that it was a commercial airliners. Tone of voice, speed of talking, the terrorist said it says MAL on a piece of the wreckage.

I think the terrorists messed up. When I first heard that was my initial sense. Then later I learn that that type of killing machine uses heat seeking (not like Israel stuff- targeted) missiles. If I aimed at it one thing and there was another thing producing heat it just might go after that .

Then I learned that it is basically three separate components. The missle launcher, like a control board, AND An ENTITY THAT IS TYPICALLY CONNECTED to a sophisticated radar system (off site) (upper level) that confirms more details about what they are considering shooting down.

The terrorists only had two compnents and were missing the component that could give much more clarity if it was commerical or military

Per Wiki: The Buk missile system may be controlled by an upper level command post system


I think it would fair to conclude that the terrorists don&#8217;t have the time or expertise to get properly trained , they are obviously hotheads etc.

I am not implying that anything they are doing over there is &#8220;OK&#8221;{, but a parent would respond (and the consequences) would be different if a child dropped a vase by accident , or slammed it on the floor on purpose.

All I am saying (and this could be a start for good thing (end) the war over the over there. Is IMO the tragedy is being &#8220;used&#8221; by not giving the story the whole picture as outlined above.

The fact that they snuck the shooter and hypothetically the black boxes in the darkness of night &#8211;to Russia -- dumb move Putin. No matter what happens now, it will always cast a shadow over whatever they say. In any NY context anyone doing sneaky stuff has a reason to do so. Technally he is breaking the law.violating International Civil Aviation Organization. They are like a worldwide police of aviation policies, Link below)

"The sight could be contaminated". THE SITE IS COMTAMINED &#8211; period. There is video of people moving stuff, reports that bodies being stepped on . Bodies tell many stories in crashes. Many. Connected the body parts to the right person is huge too. Where they were sitting, can tell where missle hit, what went on in the cabin as the plane disintegrated, was anyone breathing on the way down. How the plane broke up in air. Speed at impact speed on the desent All sorts of stuff.

The MAL guys <modsnip> issued a statement in which it explained that at the time of the crash the MH17 was at Flight Level 330 (33,000 feet), so the aircraft was above restricted airspace.. The confusion on this angle is that flight paths had been resticted in parts of the country earlier but this specific flight plan is the one being used. It got more confused in that some carriers choose to on their own . Then to add insult to injury CNN reports that right now the flight number is flying the same route WITH THE SAME FLIGHT NUMBER. That is just known you change the flight number instantly, an never use it again. Schmucks. Its a respect thing. To not change the flight plan to save fuel money is just an insult. Obvioul,y they learned nothing...........................






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#Operators

http://www.icao.int/Pages/default.aspx
 
  • #779
A shocking photograph released today by an Ukrainian official shows the harrowing image of an infant victim lying on its own in a field. The baby, who is pictured sprawled in the dirt near the crash site, is thought to be the youngest victim of the crash.

Ukraine government advisor Anton Gerashchenko, who published the picture, told Mr Putin that 'This baby's death is on your conscience.' The nationality of the infant is still unknown.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-killed-298-people-board.html#ixzz37qJPgYVo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

That article has a huge amount of photos and information on the victims, what happened and the recovery area. Thanks!
 
  • #780
Sorry I am not gonna blame MAL on this. It was a civilian aircraft. If the rebels don't even know what they are shooting (whether it was a plane, car, person, baby), it just shows how trigger happy they are. This has got to stop.
 
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