Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[Ruthbullock]

What time is first natural light?

7.00 am is daylight in August, so would start getting light shortly before that.

 

[Ruthbullock]

They sound like such a great family. Lots of activities together. It's very sad.

Yet something that stood out time and again in Mums testimony was <modsnip> She struggles to swim- they went twice that day. She struggled to walk around the resort, but then went and booked the waterfall hike which took 6 -8 hours. Nora was tired and needed to go back to the chalet, mum went and did reflexology enroute whilst Nora watched. Nora couldn’t play anything more than a simple game, aimed at under 6s, yet they spent the evening playing card games. Nora could use the spiral stairs independently, she could open the heavy sliding doors and twist the knob on the front door- but couldn’t push an unlocked window outwards.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yet something that stood out time and again in Mums testimony was <modsnip> She struggles to swim- they went twice that day. She struggled to walk around the resort, but then went and booked the waterfall hike which took 6 -8 hours. Nora was tired and needed to go back to the chalet, mum went and did reflexology enroute whilst Nora watched. Nora couldn’t play anything more than a simple game, aimed at under 6s, yet they spent the evening playing card games. Nora could use the spiral stairs independently, she could open the heavy sliding doors and twist the knob on the front door- but couldn’t push an unlocked window outwards.

What child doesn't love to swim? Swimming is great therapy for anyone with the type of disabilities Nora had. I can't imagine it would have been much fun for her to sit and watch as her siblings had a great time splashing around in the water.

Nora's mom said from the beginning that Nora especially loved playing simple card games and going for walks with her family. She was especially excited about the walk the next day to the waterfall, since she loved waterfalls.

And yes, she said from the first day that Nora would not have been able to open and climb out the window. Her statements have been consistent the entire time.

 

[Seni]

7.00 am is daylight in August, so would start getting light shortly before that.

I would say it was much earlier. Like a dawn beginning at 5.30 am. Noises from the forest much earlier.

 

[MsBetsy]

Totally agree with you on all points .
IMO - mum does contradict herself ie N couldn't possibly walk far , but mum had no hesitation booking her on jungle hike . Feel her abilities are getting used for family own narrative .

The hike to the waterfall was less than a mile and was described as being appropriate for an eight year old. The family had been on many similar trips before with Nora so I'm sure they knew what she was capable of. Both her parents would have been with her, plus her siblings, to assist her on the hike.

What does all that have to do with her disappearance and death? Many families travel and go on vacations together and would never expect their children to end up dead. There is no way Nora's family could have known this would happen.

IMO

 

[Seni]

<modsnip>I believe many properly trained shamans would have a sense about future events without being connected to them.
Two different realms, the spiritual and the human, I prefer to deal with them separately because the rules of the one are often antithetical to the other.
Her feet were unmarked.
That's the big one.
We can speculate about testimonies but not her feet.
There is something wrong here but I doubt we will ever know what happened.
Somebody knows if humans were involved in her disappearance.
I wonder what the shamans are saying now, or if they are saying anything at all and if not why not?
I wonder whether they have divulged further information to her parents that is not suitable for public sharing and not suitable for an inquest..
The results of the second autopsy may tell us something...I doubt it though.

The shamans were brought in out of respect to Nora. The Dusun is not an indigenous reservation.

The role of the shaman is to establish the balance between the natural world and any interference between this world and any other and to re-establish the proper order. The shaman offers prayers to re-establish the natural balance.

If they helped to find Nora it would be due to instinct.

 

[MsBetsy]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

There are discrepancies in every case but the ones claimed in the OP are consistent with everything Nora's mother said in the beginning. She mentioned the card game Nora loved in one of her first statements. If I remember correctly, it was the only game Nora liked to play. How is it a discrepancy that they played cards that evening? She described her ability to walk, her trouble with balance, lack of strength with small motor skills, and her desire to see the waterfall.

That Nora struggles to swim and she went swimming twice that day does not show a disregard for her. I taught kids with disabilities and even our wheelchair bound students spent an hour in the pool, if that's what was required in their IEP's. Nora was likely able to swim with little assistance.

There were witnesses who saw the kids in the pool that day, and as far as I know they haven't said anything to imply Nora was too tired to swim or that her mother showed any disregard concerning their activities.

IMO

 

[Lilibet]

The account quoted takes place after Nora had fallen and bruised her hip badly.

We basically did a small loop within the resort. And after Nora was quite fed up actually she really didn't want to do any anything else but the children want to, the other children wanted to go for another swim so we decided we would go to the second bigger pool. There was no one at the pool apart from Helen the owner of the resort with her grandchildren and they quickly left, so we were alone. Nora was Quite tired at this point didn't really want to stay in the water so I was pulling her along in the water just to help her relax probably spent about 20 minutes in the pool at the most and then other children decided to stay with my husband and I took Nora back up to the chalet. We, Nora and I noticed that there was a little reflexology circle beside the sora house and I love reflexology so I was walking around for a little bit on that and you know it was quite painful on my feet and nora was laughing about it and she didn't want to try it of course but she was watching me and it was a short period of time spent there

I can’t find it in the testimony right now, but the guided hike that was booked was 4-6 hours suitable for an 8 year old. Nora’s mother says that they do quite a bit of walking at home and she figured Nora could manage it with help and rests. I’m not sure how long a jungle hike would be that takes 4-6 hours round trip and how agile one would need to be to manage the trail.

ETA: found the testimony about the hike they scheduled (Post #744)
Q And you are going in the jungle walk
A I've booked a jungle Trail for the Monday so the intention was to rest the first day Sunday and then go for a walk on the Monday of course
Q you wouldn’t leave Nora behind you and go on the walk
A Yes there was to be a guide in the long walk so at least I believe from what I had understood that it was to be a 4 to 6 hours and I understood that if it was suitable for a child of 8 that they would be if it became too difficult or too tiring we could simply stop so I thought we would try and see Ive certainly been on long walks with Nora before nora had no issue with walking so long as someone was with her but she was healthy and she could walk some distance so long as she was accompanied

 

[Lilibet]

Post #702
Q condition at 15- physical problems
A physically well and able from a basic POV, but struggled with balance and coordination if she ran or moved quickly it was difficult with an awkward gait. She would fall or stumble in areas not flat or straight. Can’t swim easily or anything else that requires balance. Could climb a little bit at a play park, but not an adventure trail or obstacle course.
< Snip>
Post #713
I immediately thought that a walk would be good because as a family we love walking on the weekends we are very urban environment here in London but we live near parks and we often go for an hours walk in the park together and I thought a walk in nature would be a nice thing for us to to do as always manage but Nora was quite good at walking as long as I was with her and it wasn't too complex and it said on the website it was suitable for children from eight upwards so I thought you know definitely not too difficult with my help we would be able to manage it so I was going to do that and I asked about whether that was possible and suitable for families and I was told yes absolutely and so we tentatively booked at that as an activity on the Monday so not the day after arrival in the morning after that.

 

[MimosaMornings]

An all day trail hike in nature can not be compared to a one hour walk on a flat sidewalk in an urban setting.
Suitable for an eight year old - they can scamper quickly over rocks and uneven surfaces. Asking if it’s suitable for a child that can not walk without assistance and only on flat even surfaces without difficulty would have been the question I would have queried to the resort prior to booking such an activity.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

An all day trail hike in nature can not be compared to a one hour walk on a flat sidewalk in an urban setting.
Suitable for an eight year old - they can scamper quickly over rocks and uneven surfaces. Asking if it’s suitable for a child that can not walk without assistance and only on flat even surfaces without difficulty would have been the question I would have queried to the resort prior to booking such an activity.
JMO

I found the testimony about the hike in Post #744 and added it to my post #770. I would have asked the same questions you mention. Nora’s Mom did say they would try it and if it was too much they would stop. It must have been a little hard for the other two children if activities had to be aborted because of Nora’s limitations. Perhaps Dad would have continued the hike with the other kids and Mom would return to the resort with Nora, assuming they hadn’t gotten too far. I’m sure it wasn’t easy finding the right balance of activities all the kids could enjoy successfully.

 

[kittythehare]

The shamans were brought in out of respect to Nora. The Dusun is not an indigenous reservation.

The role of the shaman is to establish the balance between the natural world and any interference between this world and any other and to re-establish the proper order. The shaman offers prayers to re-establish the natural balance.

If they helped to find Nora it would be due to instinct.

I'm up to speed on both shamanism and the case, thanks..

 

[Chiatos]

There was defiantly lighting outside, that was the justification for closing the sliding door as the lamp outside was shining into the bedroom.

For sure there must have been (or: there is) a light or lights on the outside of the house. Most probably attached to the house or steps/stairs to the house or whatever.

But that's not what is meant. The compound of the Dusun has no lighting. The garden areas, the paths, the trails, etc etc.
And Nora would have to have walked all by herself on a pitch dark path, as frightened as she is. I have trouble to believe that.

 

[Ruthbullock]

For sure there must have been (or: there is) a light or lights on the outside of the house. Most probably attached to the house or steps/stairs to the house or whatever.

But that's not what is meant. The compound of the Dusun has no lighting. The garden areas, the paths, the trails, etc etc.
And Nora would have to have walked all by herself on a pitch dark path, as frightened as she is. I have trouble to believe that.

Yet mum in her testimony said there were lights on the paths and they were too bright and were stopping her sleeping, so she closed the wooden sliding door?

 

[Ruthbullock]

What child doesn't love to swim? Swimming is great therapy for anyone with the type of disabilities Nora had. I can't imagine it would have been much fun for her to sit and watch as her siblings had a great time splashing around in the water.

Nora's mom said from the beginning that Nora especially loved playing simple card games and going for walks with her family. She was especially excited about the walk the next day to the waterfall, since she loved waterfalls.

And yes, she said from the first day that Nora would not have been able to open and climb out the window. Her statements have been consistent the entire time.

Yet contradicted in her testimony?

 

[Chiatos]

Nora's mom seems to be very consistent in her statements (IMO).

As for going swimming a second time: I think the objective was for the family to stay together as much as possible, so why not at the pool since it was so hot?
After all, the second swim didn't last long for Nora: only 20 minutes, during which her mother pulled her through the water for her to relax and to cool off in the meantime.
Nora and her mother left the pool after those 20 minutes, while Sebastian remained with the other two children. That seems quite fair to me...

 

[Ruthbullock]

The hike to the waterfall was less than a mile and was described as being appropriate for an eight year old. The family had been on many similar trips before with Nora so I'm sure they knew what she was capable of. Both her parents would have been with her, plus her siblings, to assist her on the hike.

What does all that have to do with her disappearance and death? Many families travel and go on vacations together and would never expect their children to end up dead. There is no way Nora's family could have known this would happen.

IMO

If you went for a short walk round a resort and felt it was too difficult for your child even on the resort pathways - would you then book a 6-8 hour hike (the waterfall was never mentioned) up a mountain? Mum then justifies that decision when questioned by saying the website said it was ok- ( yet strangely when we all visited the website at the time Nora was missing, the resort wasn’t suitable for children and families and didn’t pretend to be, and you had to phone up if you had children to discuss, you couldn’t book online)
I agree there is no way this knowledge makes any difference to what sadly happened to Nora, but I have listened to the full 4 hours of mums testimony twice now and she is questioned over these specifics quite a lot and rightly so, once you have experienced something, you would be very naive to assume a much longer mountain trail that took 6-8 hours would be easier than the hotel grounds- and the family strike me as anything but naive.

 

[Chiatos]

Yet mum in her testimony said there were lights on the paths and they were too bright and were stopping her sleeping, so she closed the wooden sliding door?

I'll check that, thanks.
I have never been to the Dusun and unfortunately there aren't many images of the Dusun.
As I imagine it, there must be some lighting, especially where the houses are and the nearer you get to the reception. But the farther you get from the houses and/or reception, there will be less lighting. For instance, the trail of "Dusun walk" that the family had done in the afternoon, how lit would that trail be at night? And the trail towards the pond and the Pantai Hills gate?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I'll check that, thanks.
I have never been to the Dusun and unfortunately there aren't many images of the Dusun.
As I imagine it, there must be some lighting, especially where the houses are and the nearer you get to the reception. But the farther you get from the houses and/or reception, there will be less lighting. For instance, the trail of "Dusun walk" that the family had done in the afternoon, how lit would that trail be at night? And the trail towards the pond and the Pantai Hills gate?

I have no idea and would be curious to know as well- maybe trip advisor may have reviews that mention the lighting around the resort. Mum also mentions people walking back at 10.00pm to their chalet- which was in the night- I am just guessing, but I wouldn’t be walking around the resort if it was pitch black between the properties, unless I really needed to.

 

[Ruthbullock]

For sure there must have been (or: there is) a light or lights on the outside of the house. Most probably attached to the house or steps/stairs to the house or whatever.

But that's not what is meant. The compound of the Dusun has no lighting. The garden areas, the paths, the trails, etc etc.
And Nora would have to have walked all by herself on a pitch dark path, as frightened as she is. I have trouble to believe that.

I hope I am allowed to post the owners response on trip advisor from 2016
Response from dusun, Owner at The Dusun
Responded 9 Feb 2016
Thank you for your detailed and informative review. I think it will be very helpful for other guests and I support all your advice. Just a note on the lights. When you stayed we were in the process of digging up and relaying all the garden cables because of lightening strikes. We do have a system of outdoor lights from the car park to each house and this is working since your visit. We also provide a torch in each house. We have also changed the cookware in Berembun recently.