Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[Chiatos]

It was Noras headteacher today, not as long a session as usual and well worth listening to. It goes into quite a lot of detail about NQs abilities and progress made. No massive surprises, but it was more balanced and informative IMO. They will be back on Monday to discuss her EHCPs. For anyone not familiar with an EHCP, it is a legal document called an education and health care plan and is produced annually by various people like educational psychologists, speech and language therapists, teachers and parents to identify progress in areas such as communication, physical and create new learning targets. It is then sent to a team at the local council offices who check it and keep a record of it. An example on my daughters for example was to walk up stairs independently whilst holding a rail, and to write a simple sentence. SEN jungle is a website that explains all about the process for anyone who wants to understand the document and it’s purpose before Monday.

Thanks Ruthbullock!

The headmaster has actually confirmed everything the parents have said up to now:
00:00-01.00

- Nora's school has classrooms of 10-12 students
- ages from 11 upwards
- Mr. Michael knows N personally since he has taught her occasionally when a teacher was absent
- School for moderate learning difficulties
- 2015 N enrolled to school
- Condition N: significant learning difficulties and physical disability
- Intellect: could read as a 6 year old when 11 years old. Math ability under the age of 5.
Recall sentences the ability of child of about 5 years old
- In 4 years time her reading has been increased from the level of a 6 year old to that of a 7 year old
- Nora made limited progress in 4 years time
- Very poor balance, core strength, posture. She did not dare to run, she was fearful
- Significant speech and language delay: of a 7 year old at the age of 15
- Hearing loss in her right ear
- Coordination and motoric skills: significate difficulty with fine and with gross motor skills
- Social skills: lacked confidence, was quiet, had trouble expressing her feelings. Would smile anyway, looked more cheerful when at times she wasn’t
- She was aware of how people should treat each other
- Relationship with other kids: well behaved, had a good group of friends, she talked to them, she empathised with other kids
- School compound had no gardens, just a paved playground. It is confined, to not let other people in, to keep strangers out, not so much because the school is afraid the children would leave the premises
- At school trips, N would never wander off, had no confidence to walk off by herself
- Al a school trip there were 40 children and 15 staff, two nights of camping. N coped well. She did need assistance to do the walks in the country
- 43:50; document issued by the school demonstrating that N had strong physical limitations. She had weak core muscles.
- 50:00; speech and language report, drawn up by a specialist of the school who followed Nora since her enrolment: N had a reduced vocabulary, retaining info that she had learned, how no full knowledge of how and when questions. What, where and who, she would be able to comprehend. Was very easily distracted by noise.
- For every evening since N frequented her school, she would wait for the taxi to come and collect her to take her home, Nora would look out of the window and when she would see the taxi arrive and pull over, she would always first look at the teacher and wait to be told to go to the taxi. She wouldn’t take that decision herself. Even for that short distance to reach the taxi.
- Nora was not able to process large chunks of information. She would have to receive one part at a time (go upstairs + fetch the ..+ bring it down + give it to x)

 

[Ruthbullock]

Thanks @Chiatos

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks for link Ruth and thanks for synopsis Chiatos.
was there a date given for UK pathologist to testify, yet?
We don't want to miss that!
So, if she didn't exit window and window was open, someone else opened it, no sudden drafts of wind were likely.
If she didn't exit window, she exited door.

This still feels like a local or someone with knowledge of the faulty windowlatch.

 

[Chiatos]

01:00-02:00; testimony Mr. Michael, continued

- Nora was one of the most vulnerable children in her school because of her poor balance and lack of physical strength
- Looking at N. from a distance one wouldn’t immediately see she had a disability. One would notice from nearby
- Nora’s balance was very poor
- Would Nora have got more independent as she got older? Nora would not have been able to get on a bus and go off to work (for disabled) independently. Certainly not. Nora would not be able to live on her own in the future.
- Nora would not be able to go on her own to the supermarket. She would get exhausted.
- The school trip took place about 2 months before her journey to Malaysia. The children went to a camp site, two nights in tents, sharing the tent with another student.
- They children did a short amount of walking, heavily supervised by staff. Nora managed to walk with assistance. It didn’t involve going through dense vegetation.
- Nora would help take a more limited student to the toilet
- Nora was not worried to on the school trip. The students get well prepared by the school.
- Bed-wetting was no problem on the trip
- Nora was absolutely not able to exit from the window of the Dusun. She didn’t have the skill, nor the balance, nor the strength
- Nora was conscious of her disability
- If Nora had found herself outside in the dark, she would have been frightened, she would close in on herself. She would have called for her parents. She would have frozen.
- Nora wouldn’t have been able to climb or walk over broken fencing, rocks, water streams. It is unimaginable.
- Nora knew what fences were for. She wouldn’t climb over a fence. She was rule-bound.
- Nora would often smile, laugh and giggle
- Occupational therapy and speech therapy are two of the programs at the school that Nora followed
- Assessment within these therapies was done yearly
- By 2016 Nora’s development in balance, core strength and posture had had a small progress, kind of 'no obvious progress'.
- By 2017: similar situation, small progress
- By 2018: small progress in all area’s except for spelling. She went backwards with spelling.
- By 2019: the same small progress and her spelling booked some progress as well
- Nora’s reading had become functional by 2019. She was able to decode words
- Social behaviour at school: N. was extremely timid in 2015
- In the years 2015-2016 Nora has never shown anger at school (nor the following years)
- By 2018 Nora had developed a sense of humour, slightly more confident: she talked to more than 2 friends
- Nora went to the toilet independently
- At parents evenings Mr. Michael would observe Nora being with her parents
- Mr. Michael saw Nora at least 3 times a day and spoke to her daily
- The lawyer representing The Dusun asked for copies of the school reports. The coroner agrees and Mr. Michael will send them by tomorrow
- To be continued coming Monday (23rd November). Mr Michael’s presence is required again on Monday.

 

[kittythehare]

01:00-02:00; testimony Mr. Michael, continued

- Nora was one of the most vulnerable children in her school because of her poor balance and lack of physical strength
- Looking at N. from a distance one wouldn’t immediately see she had a disability. One would notice from nearby
- Nora’s balance was very poor
- Would Nora have got more independent as she got older? Nora would not have been able to get on a bus and go off to work (for disabled) independently. Certainly not. Nora would not be able to live on her own in the future.
- Nora would not be able to go on her own to the supermarket. She would get exhausted.
- The school trip took place about 2 months before her journey to Malaysia. The children went to a camp site, two nights in tents, sharing the tent with another student.
- They children did a short amount of walking, heavily supervised by staff. Nora managed to walk with assistance. It didn’t involve going through dense vegetation.
- Nora would help take a more limited student to the toilet
- Nora was not worried to on the school trip. The students get well prepared by the school.
- Bed-wetting was no problem on the trip
- Nora was absolutely not able to exit from the window of the Dusun. She didn’t have the skill, nor the balance, nor the strength
- Nora was conscious of her disability
- If Nora had found herself outside in the dark, she would have been frightened, she would close in on herself. She would have called for her parents. She would have frozen.
- Nora wouldn’t have been able to climb or walk over broken fencing, rocks, water streams. It is unimaginable.
- Nora knew what fences were for. She wouldn’t climb over a fence. She was rule-bound.
- Nora would often smile, laugh and giggle
- Occupational therapy and speech therapy are two of the programs at the school that Nora followed
- Assessment within these therapies was done yearly
- By 2016 Nora’s development in balance, core strength and posture had had a small progress, kind of 'no obvious progress'.
- By 2017: similar situation, small progress
- By 2018: small progress in all area’s except for spelling. She went backwards with spelling.
- By 2019: the same small progress and her spelling booked some progress as well
- Nora’s reading had become functional by 2019. She was able to decode words
- Social behaviour at school: N. was extremely timid in 2015
- In the years 2015-2016 Nora has never shown anger at school (nor the following years)
- By 2018 Nora had developed a sense of humour, slightly more confident: she talked to more than 2 friends
- Nora went to the toilet independently
- At parents evenings Mr. Michael would observe Nora being with her parents
- Mr. Michael saw Nora at least 3 times a day and spoke to her daily
- The lawyer representing The Dusun asked for copies of the school reports. The coroner agrees and Mr. Michael will send them by tomorrow
- To be continued coming Monday (23rd November). Mr Michael’s presence is required again on Monday.

Jeez,
Lawyer representing Dosun is taking and receiving a helluva lotta liberties.
Why are they even there?
This stinks.
(thanks, again, haven't had a chance to watch it yet.
What was tone like?
Belligerant? courteous?

 

[MsBetsy]

It was Noras headteacher today, not as long a session as usual and well worth listening to. It goes into quite a lot of detail about NQs abilities and progress made. No massive surprises, but it was more balanced and informative IMO. They will be back on Monday to discuss her EHCPs. For anyone not familiar with an EHCP, it is a legal document called an education and health care plan and is produced annually by various people like educational psychologists, speech and language therapists, teachers and parents to identify progress in areas such as communication, physical and create new learning targets. It is then sent to a team at the local council offices who check it and keep a record of it. An example on my daughters for example was to walk up stairs independently whilst holding a rail, and to write a simple sentence. SEN jungle is a website that explains all about the process for anyone who wants to understand the document and it’s purpose before Monday.

Yes, in the US it is called an IEP, but it sounds exactly the same. I've always thought Nora's EHCP alone would describe her capabilities as well as her disabilities, even without the headmaster's testimony.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Thanks for link Ruth and thanks for synopsis Chiatos.
was there a date given for UK pathologist to testify, yet?
We don't want to miss that!
So, if she didn't exit window and window was open, someone else opened it, no sudden drafts of wind were likely.
If she didn't exit window, she exited door.

This still feels like a local or someone with knowledge of the faulty windowlatch.

No but they are next meeting Monday as no one could do Thursday to Friday this week.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Jeez,
Lawyer representing Dosun is taking and receiving a helluva lotta liberties.
Why are they even there?
This stinks.
(thanks, again, haven't had a chance to watch it yet.
What was tone like?
Belligerant? courteous?

He was actually very polite and he wasn’t requesting the EHCP for any other reason than it would help support Noras parents testimony, to which everyone on both sides agreed. The headteacher was more open to being honest about things that Nora would be able to do, which was in contrast to how her parents presented Nora, and I think this led to it being less conflicting. Simple differences in wording- about the window for example. The headteacher stated it would be too high for Nora to climb out of it, she could climb over lower things if needed to a maximum of about a foot (so roughly the height of mounting steps on a staircase and maybe something a little higher). Noras parents have been adamant she couldn’t open the window and the discussion then struggled to move forward, in reality there was nothing holding the window shut as the latch was broken and it opened outwards- so even a toddler or a pet dog accidentally leaning on it could potentially open it. The headmaster made a very coherent case in support of Nora and I am positive after watching that it has been a very positive thing on her family’s behalf.

 

[kittythehare]

He was actually very polite and he wasn’t requesting the EHCP for any other reason than it would help support Noras parents testimony, to which everyone on both sides agreed. The headteacher was more open to being honest about things that Nora would be able to do, which was in contrast to how her parents presented Nora, and I think this led to it being less conflicting. Simple differences in wording- about the window for example. The headteacher stated it would be too high for Nora to climb out of it, she could climb over lower things if needed to a maximum of about a foot (so roughly the height of mounting steps on a staircase and maybe something a little higher). Noras parents have been adamant she couldn’t open the window and the discussion then struggled to move forward, in reality there was nothing holding the window shut as the latch was broken and it opened outwards- so even a toddler or a pet dog accidentally leaning on it could potentially open it. The headmaster made a very coherent case in support of Nora and I am positive after watching that it has been a very positive thing on her family’s behalf.

Thanks.
Is this evidence that there is no way on earth she could have reached her final resting place all by herself, unaided?
It sounds like it is.

My next thought is whether, if someone broke in, via the window, encountered Nora, possibly up for a drink, and feared she would recognise them and be able to identify them as her disability was not so apparent in a situation like that, and took her while abandoning all thoughts of robbery, if that had been the motive??

They would not have known she would have been unable to identify them.
Abducted and then abandoned leading to her death=murder?
Who will investigate a murder at this stage of the game?
Re dog not barking, it's unlikely he would have barked if he had recognised the prowler.. just sayin'

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Ex-headteacher affirms teen’s difficulties from medical abnormality, says unlikely climbed out window | Malay Mail

It may be unlikely she climbed out of the window. But isn’t it equally unlikely that someone got into the apartment and carried a teenager down a spiral staircase?

 

[kittythehare]

It may be unlikely she climbed out of the window. But isn’t it equally unlikely that someone got into the apartment and carried a teenager down a spiral staircase?

there is no evidence anybody carried her down or up a spiral staircase. She was capable of ascending and descending that staircase on her own.
Her mother's testimony is here.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

there is no evidence anybody carried her down or up a spiral staircase. She was capable of ascending and descending that staircase on her own.
Her mother's testimony is here.

I know, but she should have been fast asleep in bed after a very long journey. Or at very least upstairs in the bedroom with her siblings.

So, either she walked downstairs on her own and left the accommodation. Or someone broke in and enticed her out.

 

[Ruthbullock]

It may be unlikely she climbed out of the window. But isn’t it equally unlikely that someone got into the apartment and carried a teenager down a spiral staircase?

Absolutely!

 

[kittythehare]

I know, but she should have been fast asleep in bed after a very long journey. Or at very least upstairs in the bedroom with her siblings.

So, either she walked downstairs on her own and left the accommodation. Or someone broke in and enticed her out.

Yes. It is either one or the other.
However the window was pulled closed before family retired but was found open in the morning.
It could have easily have been opened from the outside.
So, the evidence we have suggests it was opened by a person, not a gale of wind.

And window, aside, Nora was incapable of travelling over rough terrain to arrive at where she was finally found.
Her feet were unmarked.
The evidence now strongly suggests she was abducted for reasons as yet unknown, possibly kept somewhere as a prisoner until she was moved to where she was found as it really does not appear possible for her to have completed that journey all by herself.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I agree, just trying to ascertain whether she was taken from inside or outside. Seems awfully risky for someone to have walked in there, especially as it would likely be a local rather than an opportunist passerby(like you might get in a bigger and less remote resort).

I have so many thoughts about this case swirling round my head and keep changing my mind about it all!!

 

[Ruthbullock]

I know, but she should have been fast asleep in bed after a very long journey. Or at very least upstairs in the bedroom with her siblings.

So, either she walked downstairs on her own and left the accommodation. Or someone broke in and enticed her out.

I’m not sure any of them would still be asleep on the mezzanine level at 8.30. Daylight was at 7.00 am and it would be flooded with daylight as the very open balcony was in the same room. They went to bed at 10.00 pm (in mums words that was an early night), that’s 9 hours (and whilst as adults most of us love our sleep, children tend to function well on much less sleep)

Back to the window, I wish I was able to interpret the police comments- nobody has ruled out the use of the front door. Even Noras mum said she couldn’t remember whether it was locked or unlocked when she went out after realising Nora wasn’t in the building. On that same note, I wonder how easy it is to access the sunken bath and how accessible that is from outside?

 

[kittythehare]

OFF TOPIC POST

Our good friend @Spellbound is having some medical issues and would appreciate our supportive messages.
@Sillybilly has kindly set up a thread where we can leave supportive messages which Spellbound can read when she feels up to it.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/spellbound-needs-our-prayers-and-support.551482/

 

[kittythehare]

I agree, just trying to ascertain whether she was taken from inside or outside. Seems awfully risky for someone to have walked in there, especially as it would likely be a local rather than an opportunist passerby(like you might get in a bigger and less remote resort).

I have so many thoughts about this case swirling round my head and keep changing my mind about it all!!

I think everyone is the same, swinging wildly.
I know I wanted to believe Nora had arrived at her spiritual home and moved in spirit to the stream where she lay down and ascended.
The hard facts presented recently however has knocked all my romantic notions clean dead.
I do not have confidence or faith in Malaysian police.
I'm very aware of how much they depend upon tourism and what with 'disappearing 'planes' and other things it's reputation is unlikely to be salvageable as a safe venue.
I'm tortured imagining all she possibly went through before she died.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Garratt Park School - Duke of Edinburgh
This is the camping trip they are talking about from the school website. They stayed for two nights so it was the silver award ( Nora must have already achieved the bronze). One thing that I did take from today is Nora was capable of walking and doing certain things independently for example she took another child to the toilet block ( if she was potentially going to unbalance a less stable child, they wouldn’t have allowed that to happen), she could potentially visit the shops alone (it would be the money and talking that would be the area of difficulty). Sadly I think this is where the whole case became almost a battle of wills against the police and the parents. The parents over emphasised her difficulties to encourage the police to take notice, the police had seen evidence to the contrary and probably spoke to witnesses who contradicted the parents evidence, so then catch 22, how could they trust anything the parents were saying. I’m now thinking this will be the only conclusion that will be drawn from the inquest.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think everyone is the same, swinging wildly.
I know I wanted to believe Nora had arrived at her spiritual home and moved in spirit to the stream where she lay down and ascended.
The hard facts presented recently however has knocked all my romantic notions clean dead.
I do not have confidence or faith in Malaysian police.
I'm very aware of how much they depend upon tourism and what with 'disappearing 'planes' and other things it's reputation is unlikely to be salvageable as a safe venue.
I'm tortured imagining all she possibly went through before she died.

Yet Malaysia is a safe place to visit, holiday and work and I have several British friends who are teachers over there and have been for many years and absolutely love it, the pictures of their holidays around the country make the green eyed monster appear.