Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[kittythehare]

That certainly is a lot of witnesses left. Here’s hoping the Quoirins are (or were already) able to have a couple of experts who knew Nora support their testimony. This inquest seems so adversarial IMO.

Adversarial is the correct adjective.
I don't like it at all.
Dosun lawyers were questioning mother about her theories, she replied, only for judge/coroner to step in with 'I'll decide whether or not there is a criminal element' or words to that effect. Mother replied she's merely been responding to his questions.
I'm also unsure why Dosun lawyers got to cross examine when their involvement is in relation to the civil case which is separate. It's rather disturbing. I'm somewhat surprised British Irish and French media aren't all over this, possibly because it's ongoing?
It's certainly not exactly victim friendly IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

I agree an expert should testify. I hope there will be one.
Or perhaps even show the coroner some film material demonstrating Nora's motorial limitations.

I'm searching for the modified witness list, there were 589 potential witnesses originally, mostly from Malaysia
Nora Anne inquest: Coroner’s Court wants witness list trimmed, Aug 4 next date

modified to 64 but I cannot find precise current list. Again, no evidence of abduction.. What evidence could be expected when there was such a long delay in taking fingerprints? Wednesday, was it not?
Open window from outside, encounter Nora, somewhere inside, take her out the front door and bring her somewhere.?
Nóra Quoirin inquest hears police chief say no indication she was abducted

 

[Cascadia Mount]

I agree, but I’m surprised they didn’t fight for an impartial paediatrician or teacher to testify as to her physical and social capabilities, or there counsel request written evidence to be submitted to support them. I feel that would have added more weight to the testimony, the Malaysian authorities have always questioned Noras abilities and they will have been prepared for being questioned in depth over this. Her physical abilities are the parents basis for her being abducted - there doesn’t appear to be any other evidence at all to suggest an abduction (I’m not saying it wasn’t an abduction, merely they would want to present as strong a case as possible)

Yes, there should be an expert witness.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm unsure how much of a contribution to the witness list her family were permitted to make.
No English translations, sadly. Her parents had to find students to translate.
I'm unable to figure out how many witnesses remain.
(Oh God, give me a US case any day of the week, this is like wading through mud for the simplest of questions..grr)
Lawyer Sankara Nair, representing Nora Anne’s family, also proposed to the court to call a forensic doctor who did a second post-mortem on Nora Anne, conducted in the UK.

Maimoonah also allowed the inquest to be made accessible through video conferencing facilities such as Zoom to enable Nora Anne’s family members in the UK to follow the proceedings.

However, she said, the proceedings could not be completely in English as she and most of the witnesses would speak in Bahasa Malaysia.

She agreed with Iskandar, who suggested that Nora Anne’s family seek the help of Malaysian students to translate the proceedings.

Sankara said he would forward the suggestion to his client.

ETA link
Nora Anne inquest to begin on Aug 24

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Adversarial is the correct adjective.
I don't like it at all.
Dosun lawyers were questioning mother about her theories, she replied, only for judge/coroner to step in with 'I'll decide whether or not there is a criminal element' or words to that effect. Mother replied she's merely been responding to his questions.
I'm also unsure why Dosun lawyers got to cross examine when their involvement is in relation to the civil case which is separate. It's rather disturbing. I'm somewhat surprised British Irish and French media aren't all over this, possibly because it's ongoing?
It's certainly not exactly victim friendly IMO.

I do wonder if Nora's parents alienated themselves from the community by suing the resort. I understand why they did that, and definitely I would have fought for the inquest, but it feels like it's blurred the objectives. Or more precisely, the coroner/judge etc are seemingly allowing it to blur things. Their stance does seem combattive.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

I do wonder if Nora's parents alienated themselves from the community by suing the resort. I understand why they did that, and definitely I would have fought for the inquest, but it feels like it's blurred the objectives. Or more precisely, the coroner/judge etc are seemingly allowing it to blur things. Their stance does seem combattive.

JMO

Disturbing, isn't it?

 

[Lilibet]

I do wonder if Nora's parents alienated themselves from the community by suing the resort. I understand why they did that, and definitely I would have fought for the inquest, but it feels like it's blurred the objectives. Or more precisely, the coroner/judge etc are seemingly allowing it to blur things. Their stance does seem combattive.

JMO

Yes, if there wasn’t a deadline to file a lawsuit, I would have waited until after the inquest to sue. I’m not an expert and perhaps the Quoirin’s attorneys recommended filing the lawsuit earlier, but IMO the lawsuit itself sets up an adversarial situation. I found it offensive myself, so I can only imagine how it affects the inquest proceedings. Those doing the questioning clearly don’t like the Quoirins.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Disturbing, isn't it?

Yes.

The whole process is making me feel twitchy and awkward.

 

[Cherwell]

Wouldn't the toilet be in the bathroom, though? I was just wondering if there was one bathroom they used, while not using the other one, since they mentioned there being two in the chalet.

One theory is that Nora got up in the night to use the bathroom, so I was wondering if that would have been the one downstairs closer to the door.

I imagine there was a full bathroom that included a toilet, but also a separate small room containing only a toilet (and perhaps a small washbasin). I assume the latter is the one that was deemed to be malodorous.

The English/Irish term bathroom only applies to a room with a bath and/or shower. The room with toilet only is called a toilet (or loo, lavatory, etc - there are many slang terms). We make a distinction. This family wouldn't have called it a bathroom.

 

[Officer Dibble]

No English translations, sadly. Her parents had to find students to translate.

How do you know this? Do you have a link to this information please?

 

[kittythehare]

How do you know this? Do you have a link to this information please?

Link is on the actual post.

 

[Lilibet]

I imagine there was a full bathroom that included a toilet, but also a separate small room containing only a toilet (and perhaps a small washbasin). I assume the latter is the one that was deemed to be malodorous.

The English/Irish term bathroom only applies to a room with a bath and/or shower. The room with toilet only is called a toilet (or loo, lavatory, etc - there are many slang terms). We make a distinction. This family wouldn't have called it a bathroom.

This reminds me of when we landed in London in 1978 and our hotel room wasn’t ready. I asked for a “restroom” and was sent to a lounge. Then I asked for a “bathroom” and was told I could take a bath in our room. Finally, in desperation I approached a smiling lady in a lobby shop and said “What do I say if I have to...you know...(and I crossed my legs to demonstrate I was desperate)” and she laughed and said “You ask for a toilet.” That seemed so odd to me, but when in Rome (or London)...

 

[Seni]

I do wonder if Nora's parents alienated themselves from the community by suing the resort. I understand why they did that, and definitely I would have fought for the inquest, but it feels like it's blurred the objectives. Or more precisely, the coroner/judge etc are seemingly allowing it to blur things. Their stance does seem combattive.

JMO

Hi HKP number one super guy! Sorry, always comes up when I see you and makes me smile.

Yes, agree with you. Also think that there was weak PR management by Lucie Blackman Trust when they tried to silence the French grandfather in the early days (or maybe I'm remembering wrong and they said only press releases by them should be taken into account? Anyone remember?). I think the family was badly represented in any case.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Hi HKP number one super guy! Sorry, always comes up when I see you and makes me smile.

Yes, agree with you. Also think that there was weak PR management by Lucie Blackman Trust when they tried to silence the French grandfather in the early days (or maybe I'm remembering wrong and they said only press releases by them should be taken into account? Anyone remember?). I think the family was badly represented in any case.

I remember this too, definitely. Found a couple of links, but the grandfather was in many tabloids around the 16th Aug.The Independent article is dated the 17th Aug.

Nóra Quoirin's grandfather believes teenager's death a 'criminal case'

Nora Quoirin’s family condemn ‘distressing’ comments about teenage daughter’s death

 

[Chiatos]

French MPs blast Malaysian authorities for their handling of Nora Quoirin case
It gives no specifics, just a general article about how disgruntled the french were and were very upfront with the Malaysian judiciary.

To date (15 Jan 2020), we have only received a short explanation from the pathologists who conducted the post mortem in Malaysia which confirmed the cause of death as gastro-intestinal bleeding and an ulcer(likely brought on by starvation and/or stress).

"We must emphasise however that is only a brief extract of what will be the full post mortem report, which is yet still unavailable."

 

[Cherwell]

This reminds me of when we landed in London in 1978 and our hotel room wasn’t ready. I asked for a “restroom” and was sent to a lounge. Then I asked for a “bathroom” and was told I could take a bath in our room. Finally, in desperation I approached a smiling lady in a lobby shop and said “What do I say if I have to...you know...(and I crossed my legs to demonstrate I was desperate)” and she laughed and said “You ask for a toilet.” That seemed so odd to me, but when in Rome (or London)...

It seems odd to me to ask for a bathroom when you need the toilet!
I've heard Americans on coaches asking if there's a bathroom on the bus. Like anyone would want to have a bath on a bus full of passengers!
We have an array of euphemisms for toilet, as do Americans (john, can). Loo is one of the most common (it derives from the French "l'eau" meaning water, so is related to WC or water closet).
But in public places a discreet way is to ask for "the Ladies" or "the Gents" - a reference to what's usually the sign on the door.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The whole case is odd, to me.

It's odd that they chose that remote resort with a mobility impaired child. It's odd that the muffled voices weren't investigated. It's odd that nobody woke up. It's odd that the mum wasn't allowed to help search. It's odd that Nora was found with unscratched feet. It's odd that no trace of her urine/faeces/underwear has been found in the forest.

Just all a bit too odd.

 

[Lilibet]

It seems odd to me to ask for a bathroom when you need the toilet!
I've heard Americans on coaches asking if there's a bathroom on the bus. Like anyone would want to have a bath on a bus full of passengers!
We have an array of euphemisms for toilet, as do Americans (john, can). Loo is one of the most common (it derives from the French "l'eau" meaning water, so is related to WC or water closet).
But in public places a discreet way is to ask for "the Ladies" or "the Gents" - a reference to what's usually the sign on the door.

I wish I’d known about “the Ladies” or “the Gents” or even remembered “the loo” in my severely jet-lagged state. Americans of my generation (early baby boomers) and upbringing do their best to disguise what we plan to do “in there” by using silly euphemisms like “restroom” and “bathroom,” which is why I recall reacting in mock horror at having to say “toilet.” The irony is that we decided to tour the British Isles instead of Europe because there wouldn’t be a language barrier. Ha! You should have seen us in Scotland and Ireland. But this became one of my favorite “culture shock” stories to tell on myself about that wonderful trip.

So back on topic, we’ve established that Nora’s family would not refer to the room with just a toilet as a “bathroom.” There would have to be a tub or shower for bathing, in addition to a toilet.

 

[Ruthbullock]

It was Noras headteacher today, not as long a session as usual and well worth listening to. It goes into quite a lot of detail about NQs abilities and progress made. No massive surprises, but it was more balanced and informative IMO. They will be back on Monday to discuss her EHCPs. For anyone not familiar with an EHCP, it is a legal document called an education and health care plan and is produced annually by various people like educational psychologists, speech and language therapists, teachers and parents to identify progress in areas such as communication, physical and create new learning targets. It is then sent to a team at the local council offices who check it and keep a record of it. An example on my daughters for example was to walk up stairs independently whilst holding a rail, and to write a simple sentence. SEN jungle is a website that explains all about the process for anyone who wants to understand the document and it’s purpose before Monday.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Ex-headteacher affirms teen’s difficulties from medical abnormality, says unlikely climbed out window | Malay Mail