Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[Seni]

Are we still had real difficulty communicating back-and-forth with the police at least at that point when you they were wrapping up their efforts and expanding what would be required from a search and rescue point of you
Q. so that was the police activity in relation to the search and rescue effort was there any effort in terms of potential criminal investigation and thinking in particular of investigations the police might of done
A no in a word no it took days for us There was one officer Maggie who was interested in taking that line of enquiry seriously and did consider that on our behalf she asked us most sensible questions about the window and so one she was also prepared to look at other locations that we suggested needed to be explored I'll come back to weigh in just a moment if you don't mind but for instance on the following day on Monday therefore senior police officers came to speak to us that evening and day I was I was I was so deeply worried because they were quite I feel quite rude arrogant with us they didn't want to particularly communicate with us they didn't really ask us any questions I asked a lot of questions about what they were doing and whether they were considering criminal things were great for example going to talk to other people in the resort where are they going to mobilise more canine units were they going to investigate local criminal activity et cetera et cetera were they going to send a forensics team to look at the property why weren’t the proper searches done We were thinking of and they just said to me you know stay calm let us do our job more or less will do we know what to do just be quiet so that was really deeply upsetting because I was thinking to myself if that's what we're dealing with Nora I was very upset by thoss particular individuals I must say maggie was the exception To that people that we had to liaise with through the Sunday on the Monday we all calls from our family and friends through a family connection s healer connection had in a way that It's very common in Malaysia or are they strongly suggested abduction and they strongly suggested a number of locations to explore we communicated that to Maggie she supported that unfortunately none of those roots were as you know were successful but she did explore that, at no point was it seriously considered. we made connections to people like interpole we ask them questions and we did understand that Interpol have been advised by the one embassy that we were dealing with this person and they shut the borders and I didn't believe it will be on the borders they advised us also of what to expect in a kidnapping case, but that was really the only sense that it was a criminal discussion And it wasn't until later in the week when officer Nick, that we got the sense that serious criminal enquiries were being considered it One one area particularly SIXEL of the window initially but it took until the Tuesday evening so you know three days before anyone to print anywhere else in the property and we were told that we could we had to vacate the property for them to take prints and we were we could have one or two family member state to observe which they did and they observe that the team only took prints in our bedroom and the bathroom and we couldn't believe the property and very especially the area where nora had been sleeping and we have been instructed to do so so our insistence and we had to insist quite strongly they were mobilised again and they came back the following morning on the Wednesday to complete the prints taken across the area, we were frustrated because by that point my entire family had been In the property many members of staff have been in the property had members of staff attach the window you know it would've been it will be tricky we also knew that or we could get a sense that the canine units that have been deployed we're not making progress as asked for by the deputy public prosecutor I repeatedly gave our articles of clothing to the police and told that the dogs couldn't trace Nora in the area which again reinforced our concerns because around the property anywhere that was a real concern for us and we knew well that is very very dominant resourced I must insist we were really impressed by we were in Preston lots and lots of very specialist officers have been deployed to look extensively for Nora and we were really happy about that are very reassured that helicopter drones specialist resources were used for that especially touched by how many local people were searching, local healers and to see that people are really doing their absolute best and you know to this day we remain so grateful to everyone who made their best to grateful to everyone who he tried their best but we could see that so little resource was being committed to a criminal angle and we were very worried about that and there are still elements of that that worries me greatly and I wondered for example why it took several days before staff members were properly and properly investigated by the police and again I still have questions about how seriously that was done I'm not i'm sure I am not best placed to comment on everything that the police were we're not doing I can only give you my own understanding which was that the dominant a commitment was in search and rescue and it took a long time to mobilise explore any possible criminal route and I believe credible evidence was lost in that if it existed if it ever existed would have been lost in that time.
Ended 1: 54

Fascinating. Great account, many thaks Ruth!

 

[Seni]

Thanks Ruth.

I still find something a bit off kilter re the sleeping arrangements. If Nora had been wetting the bed a lot prior to the trip, to the point that the parents thought to get up early to check on that, would she have shared a bed with her 12 year old sister? And if not, if she had the single, did the other siblings share?

I absolutely do not think the family had anything to do with the tragedy but something doesnt seem quite right to me and I still wonder if it has to do with where and how they slept.

From reading your transcripts, I also wonder if it's possible Nora did mistake the door for the bathroom, and she did exactly what her mum said she would do - sat down outside in the dark and waited for help. But someone else found her before her family did.

JMO

Agree absolutely, that is not clear. Also as a detail why worry about it instead of providing a plastic sheet?

Why was Nora sleeping upstairs and not with a parent downstairs? We know the staircase was precarious and that she would have been unable to handle it on her own.

 

[Chiatos]

Agree absolutely, that is not clear. Also as a detail why worry about it instead of providing a plastic sheet?

Why was Nora sleeping upstairs and not with a parent downstairs? We know the staircase was precarious and that she would have been unable to handle it on her own.

A plastic sheet under her cotton sheet would have been too sticky? It was very hot up there.
As for Nora sleeping upstairs with her siblings: perhaps the parents were confident that she would wake up her sister/brother if she would have needed to go to the bathroom? They would have helped her or would have asked their parents to help?

 

[Ruthbullock]

A I don't think I would describe muffled not in the same way inside a really quiet and discreet the signs outside were clearly peoples voices talking at a normal pitch
Q and all different kinds of sounds from within the apartment
A no I only heard one muffled yes muffled and whispering sound which means there was more than one person one so that's it again let's remember that I was not fully conscious but that's what it seems like one person says possibly 2.
Q No you say that Nora had problems, if she had any problems would she run to you
A I would say two things about that I would say that Laura was what I would describe as she would freeze if there was a problem so she wouldn't necessarily cry out she would also be silent and stare at the floor I would also say that Nora was highly submissive so if someone tried to she would let them do it she wouldn't try to fight back or resistant any way which I think is a really important point because of the fact that we talked about the body of a struggle struggle so if she needed me if I was instantly touch me but if I was at the side she wouldn't necessarily cried because she would just be stare at the floor in closing on herself
Q your other children that would be a normal reaction
A yeah normal reaction yes they would shout out for help
Q and they were sleeping together with Nora
A That's correct that's indeed yes
Q so you came on it for holiday to the jungle obviously
A yes I did
Q so who made the booking for you
A I did
Q And you chose your Dusun because
A I initially because friends stayed there a few years prior had recommended that it was a nice place they knew we wanted to stay somewhere not too far from Kuala Lumpur that was not in an urban environment and they had suggested that we could look at that website so I did a fact that it was fully in nature and that we could relax there for a couple of days before we will explore as I said earlier we had four different destinations planned for them to be in Malaysia which is quite a lot but the first few days were destined to be quite relaxing i'm so sorry but I can’t hear you
Q the Dusun offered a range of activities like the jungle walk Were you aware of that
A I was aware of the jungle walk that you could make a trip to the waterfall I was also aware that there was some trails inside the resort that was it I believe that's all that is mentioned on the website yeah
Q And then put went for a walk
A well I explain it differently so when we went for the, what I understood was that there were, there was a trail in a couple of short walks in the resort that you could explore and It was accessible and I find them to be a bit more challenging, challenging, not very well laid out, it was hard to see exactly where the trail was and the paths were very uneven so we were a bit surprised by that, but we could manage it as I say apart from the fact that Nora couldn't manage it autonomously. it was okay we didn't really think about it too much, I was expecting, i've been myself Ive travelled to Asia many times and I've been on jungle treks in ?? for example on a number of occasions normally with a guide and normally it does not involve ever climbing through any dense patches or anything that is technically in any way complex, you have a guide because otherwise you might not necessarily know exactly where you're going I expected it in all honesty to be quite straightforward that's what I expected it to be.
Q And you are going in the jungle walk
A I've booked a jungle Trail for the Monday so the intention was to rest the first day Sunday and then go for a walk on the Monday of course
Q you wouldn’t leave Nora behind you and go on the walk
A Yes there was to be a guide in the long walk so at least I believe from what I had understood that it was to be a 4 to 6 hours and I understood that if it was suitable for a child of 8 that they would be if it became too difficult or too tiring we could simply stop so I thought we would try and see Ive certainly been on long walks with Nora before nora had no issue with walking so long as someone was with her but she was healthy and she could walk some distance so long as she was accompanied
Q You make out, you have a theory about abduction?
A yes
Q You still maintain that theory now
A yes very strongly Yeah can you give us some reason why you think so I think there's many reasons to think about why Nora why I believe nor was kidnapped and there was our important I think to explain for example someone had to open the window and wasn't Nora
Q sorry because I am direct? What reason do you think anyone want to kidnap Nora, a ransom, money
A Obviously these are points of speculation but I think the reasons for kidnapping a child are well documented it is a common problem in many issues in many places around the world obviously you've mentioned one that is well known ransom is one obviously child trafficking is another reason and there are many different rates of motivation for child child trafficking whether it's abuse or frankly child enslavement I think the other thing is that not all abduction is necessarily premeditated or motivated by criminal activity I think it is important to consider the theory that Nora was abducted by someone who perhaps have attempted burglary to or if Nora for instance Had got outside if she didn't by chance did they see it as an opportune moment to abduct someone? crime in fact most crime isnt necessarily pre-meditated I think we finally I would say that I'd be aware of is that I'm aware of cultural practices in a number of countries ans I know it happens in Malaysia in where children are adopted for spiritual or cultural practices and whereby a vulnerable child would be and in particularly even more attractive person to abduct and that is to do with local ritual local cultural practice and I've read quite a bit about that I have to say. the question do I have any opinion on which of those roots of someone taking Nora whether it was deliberate or not whether she was specifically targeted or not I couldn't possibly say that would be total speculation but I have a number of very precise reasons to believe that my daughter was kidnapped how or why I am not qualified to say
Q I think that’s fair but Let me ask a few questions there was no ransom
A that is correct
Q
A let me finish by saying not by the time her body was found had a ransom been received yet
Q and also by that time there was no No question of trafficking
A
how could we have known that
Q I understand but it’s quite clear that Nora wasn’t trafficked as her body was actually found would you say that
A Yes as her body was found I would have to say that
Q And also that it was proved she wasn’t sexually abused
A you are correct
Q and the other reason organ harvesting, or organs weren’t harvested
A yes that’s correct, That doesn't necessarily mean that none of these reasons for motivation, it is simply that they hadn't happened by the time she was found
Q yes so we are just trying to see what could have been the reason that’s all
Q (UK lawyer) in relation to the issue of sexual assault just to be clear that the pathologist evidence as I understand it is not that it's conclusively the case there was no sexual assault but rather that there is no positive evidence to determine that one took place so there is a a difference between the two so I think to suggest that that has been conclusively ruled out and doesn't reflect the evidences as I read it at the moment
Q I will give apologies and then now as far as the cultural and spiritual
Video breaks up and loses audio at this point (2:55)
Someone Nora it is certainly possible that that is the case then yes it's correct she went out of the Sora in that theory she would've had to have been outside technically she could've been outside within metres of the sora of house I don't know, she could have been further.
Q that’s fine, no further questions
Ended 2:56

 

[Ruthbullock]

Judge- Okay if there is any person who is involved criminally in this case it should be my role right okay
A I understand I was just answering the questions I was asked
Judge - Okay if you say that the flight duration from KL a from a London from UK it's about 18 hours
A I would like you to confirm that with my husband to be correct
J- okay but it's okay so was there any difference between the normal Nora and when you saw her the first time after 18 hours of a journey, If you said that she has struggling with this and no sleep
A no nora greeted me as normal very enthusiastically and I just noticed throughout the day that she was tired as were all the children
J so then you got a taxi provided by the Dusun, how long did that take two hours
A one hour there wasn't so there was no serious traffic
J okay so how do you find Nora inside of the car
A very excited and happy in the back yes very affectionate to me that she wanted to tell me about her in the week where I have been up away and since she was telling me about stories from school and she was telling me about the movies that they had watched on the aeroplane that was happening yes
J okayOkay Yeah no then okay and then you check in and went to sora house and then in 18 hours +2 hours, 20 hours and then still there was no difference in Nora, only tired she looks very tired
A I didn't notice that Nora was more tired than the other children until we went to the pool for the second time that she was more tired then because she didn't want to swim for as long as the other children did but up to that point nothing out of the ordinary or she just was being herself after right and we went to the children were hot like being in the pool you know everyone was enthusiastic and then we all rested I don't know whether any of the children actually slept at that point but they were resting and then we went walking and I don't think any of them were particularly enthusiastic about walking because again it was hot and I think at that point it was mid to late afternoon so at that point they were starting to feel a bit more tired a bit more are you know yeah probably starting to feel the effects of a longer journey
A Was obvious from them so I think I was very aware that we needed to go to bed early when we after everyone had taken a shower and we were playing games before dinner I could see and feel myself it was obvious that Nora didn't want to join in so much in the game so I knew Nora couldn't say I'm tired and she wouldn't say that but I guessed that's that she was tired one of the other reasons she was very quiet in the evening then and maybe talking a little bit less at the dinner table then evening at home dinner and the other I suppose obvious reasons but I haven't mentioned it is you know when we suggested having an early night they were all very happy to do that they the children like to stay up as late as possible but they were happy and wanted to go to bed
J okay what she looks like disoriented not focused, no okay, I'm so sorry I would like to show you this map okay. I'm sorry I just got going to lift some water okay okay have you seen this map before 3;04
A no no
J Ado you have a copy of the map? do you? no okay we have a copy. do you know
A I don't I don't have that
J alright let me tell you I want you to show on The map is where you walked around d the resort.
A ok a is sora house, L is reception, Can you you are right it was done and you met a staff and went to Sora house, that you came from S this is the main entrance the front gate S can you okay yeah and then he can you see T is that the gate at the back. yes okay yes okay if I get back and we have bought you at the bottom pool at I and the infinity pool is J it’s near Sora house and reception and dining patio is K and finally deer park is G. Now tell us where you and the family went
A so we left from the chalet so we leave from a walk directly to the past the pool to the reception area then we go up the steps at the reception area past where the cars are parked and follow the trail to the right. And I said that the tree you mean is the Dusun walk yes we follow that trail All the way to we don't go anywhere else except we stay on that Trail all the way to G to the deer park and then from the deer park we couldn't see exactly where the path was going after that so we crossed a little bit of the wooded area I suppose it was an area on the path again and we headed straight back to the chalet so we went in more or less a straight line from the back to say then we put our swimsuits on again and walked on the path from A to I and then from I back to A again i didn't know when police were talking about the back gate I didn't really know what that was myself for awhile my husband Sebastian saw it on the Sunday because he was looking all around the resort but we the family had never gone to the back gate. I was aware of one entrance exit which was S as you've described
J okay so okay now I want to go back to, can you describe your house is it open concept, a private concept
A Okay so it depends what you mean by these things open concept yes to the extent of the balcony was fully open and accessible.

Then shown lots of photos, some I haven’t seen before of the Sora house 3:15

They talk about the sliding doors to the bathroom and the bedroom had been shut, judge reiterates and mum agrees they were very heavy.
J okaycan you tell us how much she ate for lunch and dinner
A we start with lunch I don't I'm not sure how to describe this but nor at a probably as much as I did at lunch and dinner she had a normal meal nor had a good appetite so she would've had a normal adult size portion of curry with rice and then in the evening it was kebabs and more vegetables things like corn I don't remember the other vegetables but it was a substantial barbecue and Nora had a good meal okay sorry I'm so sorry I described lunchtime was curry with rice she had a normal adult size portion of curry and rice that was it and then dinner we had barbecued meat and vegetables With also grilled corn on the cob and other a couple of potatoes nora had all of those things
J From the beginning she was referred to specialist either specially specially specially with it What medication is prescribed by the specialist
A the only medication nora ever had to take in her life was for enuresis for bladder control she was not taking it though on holiday.
J do you know something I really want to know so is that linked to the stomach?
A no
Basically no problem controlling her bladder during the day but sometimes she would wet the bed they did lots of tests no physical issues attached to it and it was more to do with maturity and teaching Nora to drink and empty her bladder regularly and especially at night time so she she struggles with bedwetting
J when was the last time she is on this medication
A probably six months before we went to Malaysia
J I am so Nora we saw the clinic bladder clinic every six months and the what that medication does is it suppresses the bladder is need to go to the toilet at night but obviously what it doesn't do is to help teach the child about how to work at controlling their own bladder so the only reason they prescribe the medication is to bedwetting and a child is waking up at night and there uncomfortable and then they're going out to school it's it's not a good experience for them and so periodically encourage us to use the medication in order to help to physical the educational process for Nora and and then each time after and then try to manage on her own so over a number of years they didn't want you to be constantly on the medication and she had a period of managing well again and then a period where she would relapse and the bedwetting would start again and my husband was able to tell me that the week when I was away she waited to give it more time after a few accidents tried to manage by herself
J was there any other medication
A no no no no she never took any other medicine
Q Yes I am new can you explain how did you walk around when you guys were walking around your move around with you guys so she was only on the parks so we followed concrete fairly flat or at least easily navigated pass in the immediate facility of the source both in terms of going to reception with us and to go on a short walk when she was on the short walk with us she was wearing running shoes trainers and sportswear and socks and normal clothes of course and as I said it was tricky so slanted she slipped and fell in her shoes very little exposure to any walking at this point but after that then I held her hand and she managed the rest of the trail as we described by holding my hand and following me
Q considering her jetlag very well you will be okay for her to sleep alone I mean she slept with her younger siblings in the mezzanine area without adult supervision
A What was that absolutely fine yes absolutely what why why would it not be she slept in a room with your sister all her life they shared a bedroom and that was what she always had there was no reason to believe that Nora would have any difficulties in the night we told her that if she needed to go to the toilet she knew where the bathroom was she could come down and go to the toilet that was what she was familiar with that was what she was used to
Q Did you follow the search for Nora with the dogs
A yes but Not so far so the first dog as I said didn't go more then I don't know a few metres couldn't really was really up to the task when the second dog crew came the next day they went off the under two different occasions and on both occasions the dog went off slightly in opposite directions and it was heading towards property personal property was another occasion it was off towards where there was a fencing and let you know earlier when I described that Nora and I were on the reflexology path behind that again there was another swinging behind that again was the edge of the property with a course did not want to disturb them so I was standing back just watching really where they were going I was a few metres away once they went beyond that area I didn't I didn't follow so I was right by the property because also mate I wanted to stay with the children and I just wanted to see that the dogs reaction but I didn't want to interfere in anyway
Q when you said that the first dog couldn’t manage the task what made you assume that
A The dog looks exhausted looked very very old and weary didn't react in any way very lacklustre head hanging down not moving quickly compare to the other job that you know this dog was barely moving very slow tired the dog, you could see in it’s eyes it was old and tired that was my impression.
Q but you did not follow that dog, would you agree that’s your opinion about the dog
A no I wouldn't agree with that, initially of course you're 100% correct that that was my opinion but we also then asked the police for their opinion and we ask whether the dog was fit for purpose and they said no probably not we need to get other canine unit so they confirmed for us and we also asked a lot of questions about where the dogs have been followed each time we were aware of the canine unit and we were given some information about the fact that they didn't go very far where they lost whether they picked up a scent.
Q Did the police arrive in the afternoon a few hours after the report?
A you're right it was the afternoon
Q and did you have a rescue agency such as fire and rescue
A I remember well as single police officer with his dog arrived i would say mid afternoon and it wasn't until late afternoon that we had contact with anyone else and I didn't have an idea of the times, my husband saw them he would have a better idea than me.
Q Would you agree in the early stages it was difficult to ascertain the specific causes of
It
A I know I think that there are clearly two possibilities that are immediately clear and required to be pursued at her at the moment she disappears one is absolutely sure that was prioritised which is she could've got out there got out of the chalet and therefore search and rescue operations were needed although no police officer ever asked me about the door they insisted constantly that she exited through the window but that's a moot point if you like yes of course one possible search and rescue the other route that seems very obvious to me is the window what are no one has still never been able to explain how the window could be open and I think that's a very serious thing I think that I understand that no one could've possibly in the first moments understood that Nora didn't go out the window although as one of the other people ask me why would you climb out the window which is difficult but nonetheless and even if they couldn't initially realised that Nora wasn't capable of that window as soon as we were spoken to you on the first afternoon and give our statements it was totally clear that that was possible for Nora and therefore the window needed to be explored as a rate and therefore a criminal to be considered strongly talk to me both of those and I would've if you're asking for my opinion which I think you are I would've wanted to explore both with equal measure
Q The door and the window
A and the fact that missing person and the fact that both theories and both possibilities yes
Q Where are you a mention criminal investigation would you would you agree with your opinion than fact
A everything is a question of opinion no one has any facts Suggest that she walked out of the apartment of her own accord either and no one can explain how Nora could've stayed within such a small radius without being found either it's all a question of opinion so that that's that's the job to to figure out everything that's possible and then that's why we're here isn't it it's complicated it's really complicated and lots of things could happen and we need to investigate them all and of course we are relying on opinion and a series of deductions and unfortunately in this case there is not a lot of proof that easily ascertained and certain elements were lost
Q Despite is she capable of walking
A absolutely she is she is physically capable of that she just never did it so we would go walking on the weekend by ourselves to the shops I walk in the local park I don't have to hold Noras hand it's flat she can walk she comes with me but she's with me she never ever ever was anywhere by herself
Q you did mention about you heard that cases of children abduction in Malaysia can you elaborate where you might have heard about this
A Many people got in touch with us over the course of our state you will probably know that we were constantly harassed by the media and many many messages are being sent in by hundreds of possible routes family extended family friends of family connections are numerous people through social media another reasons for signalling press cuttings press stories previous examples of this happening when we came home from Malaysia number of people and I'm so sorry but I'm not going to be able to recall had a lot again made suggestions and so I made some reading myself on the Internet and I came across a number of articles that okay post supposed local and international reports and in fact on a number of a number of interactions that we had with local healers and we wanted and I hope we work as respectful as we could be to local practice and culture for it frequently people asked to come and pray near the house in the resort area also even inside the house there was one notable incidents where we were asked with a team of people to visit the local Shaman who was calling on the spirits of the jungle to deliver Nora back to us and they are members of their entourage explain to us that they believed nora have been taken for ritual practices by mysterious forces and that they were calling on these spirits to come back and that these were incidences where children were taken and by forest spirits eventually rendered and and they were calling on that so obviously you can imagine that that is not in our local practice here right never heard about things like that prior to going to Malaysia specifically and so we wanted to respect that and we want to give due course so that in fact a police officer asked could we accompanied up group which he believed were important to acknowledge which we did and we were accompanied by various police officers and so I was intrigued by that which led me more about not just of course the more mysterious side of cultural practice but also what some of the more physical aspects of that might of been and I am entirely relying on my experience there and as I said a mixture of local and international press articles and other accounts
Q Organ donation etc was not so possible considering the state of Nora what do you think when she was found would you know
A. I am in no position to speculate really about the motivations behind an abduction that's not my place to say the motivation specifically for for Nora what I would say is that it is possible reasonable to expect that any plan that could've been might have had to change by virtue of the sheer volume of attention placed on Nora the the emphasis that Nora was a child with difficulties that was then being reported in the press and so I do believe that subsequently been released by them would've understood at that point that it was going to be either impossible to move with Nora and she was a vulnerable child and therefore not necessarily anticipated so I think that's noras post-mortem report I know the court hasn't heard that evidence yet but I'm fully aware of the condition in which Noras body was found and there were scratchings on the body of course but we've asked a lot of people and at the time I myself considered that none of those markings would be conducive to a child walking in the jungle barefooted naked one of the reasons we've heard from the police repeatedly that they couldn't find Nora we know that we know that the area where she was found was searched repeatedly and by really great experts was that she was constantly on the move to be constantly on the move you need to be able to move quickly nora always moved very slowly I must say but also quite naturally you would have a lot of damage to your body because of the terrain and relatively speaking in context she did not and I am quite shocked by that because as we said it was extremely steep extremely rocky extremely difficult to navigate across branches across dense jungle and you know why does the state of her body not reflect that of someone who was constantly moving and constantly exposed to the elements so I think that is an area of concern for me
Q You know Could Nora have got there by yourself
A no I don't believe it's possible that she got there by herself by virtue of the fact that two things I don't believe that Nora would've ventured off the main path into dense jungle given how frightened shy cautious she was as a human and I also don't believe that if she had gone there let's remember it was extremely close i feel that she would have been seen because on numerous days and by numerous teams that area was thoroughly searched as well as alright so I believe she would've been seen.
Q Are all the speculation that she might have been abducted, we have no proof and it is your opinion
A yeah it has to be I obviously have no nor does anyone have any concrete proof of what happened and we don't have any concrete proof for either frankly you know at no point Where are Noras footprints we don't even see her footprints near where she was found we don't even see evidence of human activity in the area where she was found which was one of the tests recently so I believe that yes of course it is absolutely can only be my opinion one of the really really difficult and the lack of concrete evidence from the beginning for all of it and I appreciate the extreme difficulty involved in it.
That is the end of the video for 11 November 2020

 

[Officer Dibble]

T

Quoirin said Nora wouldn’t necessarily have cried for help because she was “highly submissive,” which could prove why there were no markings of struggle on her body. “She would just be silent and stare at the floor and close in on herself,” she said

She noted that the area where Nora was found has been repeatedly searched, and that given the steep and hilly terrain, her body was in fairly good condition, with only minor bruises and scratches. “Why does her state of body not reflect that of someone constantly moving or exposed to the harshest of elements?” she said.

This would potentially fit and concur with the theory we discussed ages ago about Shamen publicly saying he predicted the body would be found the next day (and it was) when we thought it was possibly a 'i've heard rumours and now you can present the girl' sort of way out. A mother's instinct is often (not always, but often) correct. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

This would potentially fit and concur with the theory we discussed ages ago about Shamen publicly saying he predicted the body would be found the next day (and it was) when we thought it was possibly a 'i've heard rumours and now you can present the girl' sort of way out. A mother's instinct is often (not always, but often) correct.

<modsnip>I believe many properly trained shamans would have a sense about future events without being connected to them.
Two different realms, the spiritual and the human, I prefer to deal with them separately because the rules of the one are often antithetical to the other.
Her feet were unmarked.
That's the big one.
We can speculate about testimonies but not her feet.
There is something wrong here but I doubt we will ever know what happened.
Somebody knows if humans were involved in her disappearance.
I wonder what the shamans are saying now, or if they are saying anything at all and if not why not?
I wonder whether they have divulged further information to her parents that is not suitable for public sharing and not suitable for an inquest..
The results of the second autopsy may tell us something...I doubt it though.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Judge- Okay if there is any person who is involved criminally in this case it should be my role right okay
A I understand I was just answering the questions I was asked
Judge - Okay if you say that the flight duration from KL a from a London from UK it's about 18 hours
A I would like you to confirm that with my husband to be correct
J- okay but it's okay so was there any difference between the normal Nora and when you saw her the first time after 18 hours of a journey, If you said that she has struggling with this and no sleep
A no nora greeted me as normal very enthusiastically and I just noticed throughout the day that she was tired as were all the children
J so then you got a taxi provided by the Dusun, how long did that take two hours
A one hour there wasn't so there was no serious traffic
J okay so how do you find Nora inside of the car
A very excited and happy in the back yes very affectionate to me that she wanted to tell me about her in the week where I have been up away and since she was telling me about stories from school and she was telling me about the movies that they had watched on the aeroplane that was happening yes
J okayOkay Yeah no then okay and then you check in and went to sora house and then in 18 hours +2 hours, 20 hours and then still there was no difference in Nora, only tired she looks very tired
A I didn't notice that Nora was more tired than the other children until we went to the pool for the second time that she was more tired then because she didn't want to swim for as long as the other children did but up to that point nothing out of the ordinary or she just was being herself after right and we went to the children were hot like being in the pool you know everyone was enthusiastic and then we all rested I don't know whether any of the children actually slept at that point but they were resting and then we went walking and I don't think any of them were particularly enthusiastic about walking because again it was hot and I think at that point it was mid to late afternoon so at that point they were starting to feel a bit more tired a bit more are you know yeah probably starting to feel the effects of a longer journey
A Was obvious from them so I think I was very aware that we needed to go to bed early when we after everyone had taken a shower and we were playing games before dinner I could see and feel myself it was obvious that Nora didn't want to join in so much in the game so I knew Nora couldn't say I'm tired and she wouldn't say that but I guessed that's that she was tired one of the other reasons she was very quiet in the evening then and maybe talking a little bit less at the dinner table then evening at home dinner and the other I suppose obvious reasons but I haven't mentioned it is you know when we suggested having an early night they were all very happy to do that they the children like to stay up as late as possible but they were happy and wanted to go to bed
J okay what she looks like disoriented not focused, no okay, I'm so sorry I would like to show you this map okay. I'm sorry I just got going to lift some water okay okay have you seen this map before 3;04
A no no
J Ado you have a copy of the map? do you? no okay we have a copy. do you know
A I don't I don't have that
J alright let me tell you I want you to show on The map is where you walked around d the resort.
A ok a is sora house, L is reception, Can you you are right it was done and you met a staff and went to Sora house, that you came from S this is the main entrance the front gate S can you okay yeah and then he can you see T is that the gate at the back. yes okay yes okay if I get back and we have bought you at the bottom pool at I and the infinity pool is J it’s near Sora house and reception and dining patio is K and finally deer park is G. Now tell us where you and the family went
A so we left from the chalet so we leave from a walk directly to the past the pool to the reception area then we go up the steps at the reception area past where the cars are parked and follow the trail to the right. And I said that the tree you mean is the Dusun walk yes we follow that trail All the way to we don't go anywhere else except we stay on that Trail all the way to G to the deer park and then from the deer park we couldn't see exactly where the path was going after that so we crossed a little bit of the wooded area I suppose it was an area on the path again and we headed straight back to the chalet so we went in more or less a straight line from the back to say then we put our swimsuits on again and walked on the path from A to I and then from I back to A again i didn't know when police were talking about the back gate I didn't really know what that was myself for awhile my husband Sebastian saw it on the Sunday because he was looking all around the resort but we the family had never gone to the back gate. I was aware of one entrance exit which was S as you've described
J okay so okay now I want to go back to, can you describe your house is it open concept, a private concept
A Okay so it depends what you mean by these things open concept yes to the extent of the balcony was fully open and accessible.

Then shown lots of photos, some I haven’t seen before of the Sora house 3:15

They talk about the sliding doors to the bathroom and the bedroom had been shut, judge reiterates and mum agrees they were very heavy.
J okaycan you tell us how much she ate for lunch and dinner
A we start with lunch I don't I'm not sure how to describe this but nor at a probably as much as I did at lunch and dinner she had a normal meal nor had a good appetite so she would've had a normal adult size portion of curry with rice and then in the evening it was kebabs and more vegetables things like corn I don't remember the other vegetables but it was a substantial barbecue and Nora had a good meal okay sorry I'm so sorry I described lunchtime was curry with rice she had a normal adult size portion of curry and rice that was it and then dinner we had barbecued meat and vegetables With also grilled corn on the cob and other a couple of potatoes nora had all of those things
J From the beginning she was referred to specialist either specially specially specially with it What medication is prescribed by the specialist
A the only medication nora ever had to take in her life was for enuresis for bladder control she was not taking it though on holiday.
J do you know something I really want to know so is that linked to the stomach?
A no
Basically no problem controlling her bladder during the day but sometimes she would wet the bed they did lots of tests no physical issues attached to it and it was more to do with maturity and teaching Nora to drink and empty her bladder regularly and especially at night time so she she struggles with bedwetting
J when was the last time she is on this medication
A probably six months before we went to Malaysia
J I am so Nora we saw the clinic bladder clinic every six months and the what that medication does is it suppresses the bladder is need to go to the toilet at night but obviously what it doesn't do is to help teach the child about how to work at controlling their own bladder so the only reason they prescribe the medication is to bedwetting and a child is waking up at night and there uncomfortable and then they're going out to school it's it's not a good experience for them and so periodically encourage us to use the medication in order to help to physical the educational process for Nora and and then each time after and then try to manage on her own so over a number of years they didn't want you to be constantly on the medication and she had a period of managing well again and then a period where she would relapse and the bedwetting would start again and my husband was able to tell me that the week when I was away she waited to give it more time after a few accidents tried to manage by herself
J was there any other medication
A no no no no she never took any other medicine
Q Yes I am new can you explain how did you walk around when you guys were walking around your move around with you guys so she was only on the parks so we followed concrete fairly flat or at least easily navigated pass in the immediate facility of the source both in terms of going to reception with us and to go on a short walk when she was on the short walk with us she was wearing running shoes trainers and sportswear and socks and normal clothes of course and as I said it was tricky so slanted she slipped and fell in her shoes very little exposure to any walking at this point but after that then I held her hand and she managed the rest of the trail as we described by holding my hand and following me
Q considering her jetlag very well you will be okay for her to sleep alone I mean she slept with her younger siblings in the mezzanine area without adult supervision
A What was that absolutely fine yes absolutely what why why would it not be she slept in a room with your sister all her life they shared a bedroom and that was what she always had there was no reason to believe that Nora would have any difficulties in the night we told her that if she needed to go to the toilet she knew where the bathroom was she could come down and go to the toilet that was what she was familiar with that was what she was used to
Q Did you follow the search for Nora with the dogs
A yes but Not so far so the first dog as I said didn't go more then I don't know a few metres couldn't really was really up to the task when the second dog crew came the next day they went off the under two different occasions and on both occasions the dog went off slightly in opposite directions and it was heading towards property personal property was another occasion it was off towards where there was a fencing and let you know earlier when I described that Nora and I were on the reflexology path behind that again there was another swinging behind that again was the edge of the property with a course did not want to disturb them so I was standing back just watching really where they were going I was a few metres away once they went beyond that area I didn't I didn't follow so I was right by the property because also mate I wanted to stay with the children and I just wanted to see that the dogs reaction but I didn't want to interfere in anyway
Q when you said that the first dog couldn’t manage the task what made you assume that
A The dog looks exhausted looked very very old and weary didn't react in any way very lacklustre head hanging down not moving quickly compare to the other job that you know this dog was barely moving very slow tired the dog, you could see in it’s eyes it was old and tired that was my impression.
Q but you did not follow that dog, would you agree that’s your opinion about the dog
A no I wouldn't agree with that, initially of course you're 100% correct that that was my opinion but we also then asked the police for their opinion and we ask whether the dog was fit for purpose and they said no probably not we need to get other canine unit so they confirmed for us and we also asked a lot of questions about where the dogs have been followed each time we were aware of the canine unit and we were given some information about the fact that they didn't go very far where they lost whether they picked up a scent.
Q Did the police arrive in the afternoon a few hours after the report?
A you're right it was the afternoon
Q and did you have a rescue agency such as fire and rescue
A I remember well as single police officer with his dog arrived i would say mid afternoon and it wasn't until late afternoon that we had contact with anyone else and I didn't have an idea of the times, my husband saw them he would have a better idea than me.
Q Would you agree in the early stages it was difficult to ascertain the specific causes of
It
A I know I think that there are clearly two possibilities that are immediately clear and required to be pursued at her at the moment she disappears one is absolutely sure that was prioritised which is she could've got out there got out of the chalet and therefore search and rescue operations were needed although no police officer ever asked me about the door they insisted constantly that she exited through the window but that's a moot point if you like yes of course one possible search and rescue the other route that seems very obvious to me is the window what are no one has still never been able to explain how the window could be open and I think that's a very serious thing I think that I understand that no one could've possibly in the first moments understood that Nora didn't go out the window although as one of the other people ask me why would you climb out the window which is difficult but nonetheless and even if they couldn't initially realised that Nora wasn't capable of that window as soon as we were spoken to you on the first afternoon and give our statements it was totally clear that that was possible for Nora and therefore the window needed to be explored as a rate and therefore a criminal to be considered strongly talk to me both of those and I would've if you're asking for my opinion which I think you are I would've wanted to explore both with equal measure
Q The door and the window
A and the fact that missing person and the fact that both theories and both possibilities yes
Q Where are you a mention criminal investigation would you would you agree with your opinion than fact
A everything is a question of opinion no one has any facts Suggest that she walked out of the apartment of her own accord either and no one can explain how Nora could've stayed within such a small radius without being found either it's all a question of opinion so that that's that's the job to to figure out everything that's possible and then that's why we're here isn't it it's complicated it's really complicated and lots of things could happen and we need to investigate them all and of course we are relying on opinion and a series of deductions and unfortunately in this case there is not a lot of proof that easily ascertained and certain elements were lost
Q Despite is she capable of walking
A absolutely she is she is physically capable of that she just never did it so we would go walking on the weekend by ourselves to the shops I walk in the local park I don't have to hold Noras hand it's flat she can walk she comes with me but she's with me she never ever ever was anywhere by herself
Q you did mention about you heard that cases of children abduction in Malaysia can you elaborate where you might have heard about this
A Many people got in touch with us over the course of our state you will probably know that we were constantly harassed by the media and many many messages are being sent in by hundreds of possible routes family extended family friends of family connections are numerous people through social media another reasons for signalling press cuttings press stories previous examples of this happening when we came home from Malaysia number of people and I'm so sorry but I'm not going to be able to recall had a lot again made suggestions and so I made some reading myself on the Internet and I came across a number of articles that okay post supposed local and international reports and in fact on a number of a number of interactions that we had with local healers and we wanted and I hope we work as respectful as we could be to local practice and culture for it frequently people asked to come and pray near the house in the resort area also even inside the house there was one notable incidents where we were asked with a team of people to visit the local Shaman who was calling on the spirits of the jungle to deliver Nora back to us and they are members of their entourage explain to us that they believed nora have been taken for ritual practices by mysterious forces and that they were calling on these spirits to come back and that these were incidences where children were taken and by forest spirits eventually rendered and and they were calling on that so obviously you can imagine that that is not in our local practice here right never heard about things like that prior to going to Malaysia specifically and so we wanted to respect that and we want to give due course so that in fact a police officer asked could we accompanied up group which he believed were important to acknowledge which we did and we were accompanied by various police officers and so I was intrigued by that which led me more about not just of course the more mysterious side of cultural practice but also what some of the more physical aspects of that might of been and I am entirely relying on my experience there and as I said a mixture of local and international press articles and other accounts
Q Organ donation etc was not so possible considering the state of Nora what do you think when she was found would you know
A. I am in no position to speculate really about the motivations behind an abduction that's not my place to say the motivation specifically for for Nora what I would say is that it is possible reasonable to expect that any plan that could've been might have had to change by virtue of the sheer volume of attention placed on Nora the the emphasis that Nora was a child with difficulties that was then being reported in the press and so I do believe that subsequently been released by them would've understood at that point that it was going to be either impossible to move with Nora and she was a vulnerable child and therefore not necessarily anticipated so I think that's noras post-mortem report I know the court hasn't heard that evidence yet but I'm fully aware of the condition in which Noras body was found and there were scratchings on the body of course but we've asked a lot of people and at the time I myself considered that none of those markings would be conducive to a child walking in the jungle barefooted naked one of the reasons we've heard from the police repeatedly that they couldn't find Nora we know that we know that the area where she was found was searched repeatedly and by really great experts was that she was constantly on the move to be constantly on the move you need to be able to move quickly nora always moved very slowly I must say but also quite naturally you would have a lot of damage to your body because of the terrain and relatively speaking in context she did not and I am quite shocked by that because as we said it was extremely steep extremely rocky extremely difficult to navigate across branches across dense jungle and you know why does the state of her body not reflect that of someone who was constantly moving and constantly exposed to the elements so I think that is an area of concern for me
Q You know Could Nora have got there by yourself
A no I don't believe it's possible that she got there by herself by virtue of the fact that two things I don't believe that Nora would've ventured off the main path into dense jungle given how frightened shy cautious she was as a human and I also don't believe that if she had gone there let's remember it was extremely close i feel that she would have been seen because on numerous days and by numerous teams that area was thoroughly searched as well as alright so I believe she would've been seen.
Q Are all the speculation that she might have been abducted, we have no proof and it is your opinion
A yeah it has to be I obviously have no nor does anyone have any concrete proof of what happened and we don't have any concrete proof for either frankly you know at no point Where are Noras footprints we don't even see her footprints near where she was found we don't even see evidence of human activity in the area where she was found which was one of the tests recently so I believe that yes of course it is absolutely can only be my opinion one of the really really difficult and the lack of concrete evidence from the beginning for all of it and I appreciate the extreme difficulty involved in it.
That is the end of the video for 11 November 2020

Thank you for this. What I took from this were a few things:

1) the bedroom door was heavy
2) the bathroom door was a sliding one and heavy
3) Parents expected Nora to walk down the stairs on her own to go to the bathroom on her own if she need the toilet in the night.

So from this it makes me wonder if she woke up and needed the toilet, went down the stairs (was it pitch black at night there? What time did some natural light start to enter?) and then all those bugs and moths that were mentioned a while ago flapping around at night were flapping in her face...she made it to the bathroom but couldn't open the heavy sliding door, then tried parents but couldn't wake them from their deep sleep then... either went outside as desperate to pee (?) somehow on her own or was unfortunate to encounter a burglary taking place and they knew she was witness and they took her, realising she was submissive? JMO

 

[HayLouise]

Thanks so much @Ruthbullock

 

[HayLouise]

 

[Cascadia Mount]

BBM

It’s all so confusing! She had fallen and bruised her hip badly earlier that evening on their walk. I would think that would make it even harder for her to navigate the staircase by herself after sleeping for awhile. Her hip would hurt more after lying still and getting up IMO. But according to the transcript quoted below her Mom thought she would have no problem with the stairs.


BBM

Would she have shut the front door before realizing she wasn’t in the bathroom? Also, the bathroom had a sliding door and I don’t think that was the case with the front door. But who knows what she could have/would have done.

Commenting on these portions of the transcript:



Not being concerned about Nora’s ability to navigate down the spiral stairs and find the bathroom in an unfamiliar place does not compute with the following statement IMO:



The following statement amazes me. It’s hard for me to imagine not being jolted awake by sounds inside the house in a strange place with an unlocked window. Maybe it’s just me.



I’ve often thought that she was carried into the jungle (hence no sign on her feet of walking), kept somewhere, and when she died, laid on the rock. Why and by whom I can’t say. None of this makes sense.

I think so too. Nora fell just on a walk, she couldn't have gotten in to the jungle on her own.

 

[kittythehare]

Here is U Tube link to mother's testimony.
She gives her evidence clearly and coherently

 

[Chiatos]

The narrator said that Nora was found at a distance of about 2,5 km from the Dusun/Sora! (he said: not 1 km as stated in the Sun, but 2,5 km)
And he says that the garden of the Dusun is unlit at night. No lighting at all so that visitors can watch the stars.

Nora is supposed to have walked all by herself in pitch dark? As timid and as frightened as she was?

 

[kittythehare]

The narrator said that Nora was found at a distance of about 2,5 km from the Dusun/Sora! (he said: not 1 km as stated in the Sun, but 2,5 km)
And he says that the garden of the Dusun is unlit at night. No lighting at all so that visitors can watch the stars.

Nora is supposed to have walked all by herself in pitch dark? As timid and as frightened as she was?

No way on earth did she manage that walk on her own, it's just not possible.
I believe her parents about the limits of her abilities.
She had to have been abducted/kidnapped/stolen/whatever.
It's possibly that they were targeted, followed, stalked.
Their luggage may have looked expensive, if money was the objective in taking her, but no ransom was requested.
It was very blatant but a safe bet too for the abductor, new location, new country, jetlag, everything strange..
I don't know why, if not money.
I wondered whether she could have sustained a head injury in the earlier fall that went un-noticed at the time but led to a subsequent delirium, but autopsy presented no evidence of that, as far as I know.
But, if abducted why did they choose her and not the younger child?
How could they have known she would be compliant?

If she'd walked her feet would have been torn.
They were not.
That is evidence she didn't walk, is it not?
If she didn't walk, was she carried?

If none of that makes sense, no physical/human rationale presented, why did Malaysian police want to close the case, almost immediately?
Why did they go to the trouble of submitting evidence of her walking well, on a flat surface, at the airport when this is an entirely different terrain?

 

[kittythehare]

Mr Quoirin said he "very quickly... realised something very dramatic was in front of us" and immediately began searching the area, including out of a back gate which he described as "porous" and something that "anyone could walk through it".

Speaking via video-link, Mr Quoirin said he had spotted her feet as he went to identify her body for the second time to authorise an autopsy.

He told Seremban Coroner's Court they "didn't seem to be particularly damaged, in fact they seemed just dirty" and questioned how that could be possible since the police had suggested that she had been "on the move for seven days".

"How was that compatible with the state of Nora's feet?" he said.

Nóra Quoirin death: Girl's feet 'dirty but not damaged', inquest hears

 

[Cascadia Mount]

The narrator said that Nora was found at a distance of about 2,5 km from the Dusun/Sora! (he said: not 1 km as stated in the Sun, but 2,5 km)
And he says that the garden of the Dusun is unlit at night. No lighting at all so that visitors can watch the stars.

Nora is supposed to have walked all by herself in pitch dark? As timid and as frightened as she was?

Not credible to me.

 

[Ruthbullock]

The narrator said that Nora was found at a distance of about 2,5 km from the Dusun/Sora! (he said: not 1 km as stated in the Sun, but 2,5 km)
And he says that the garden of the Dusun is unlit at night. No lighting at all so that visitors can watch the stars.

Nora is supposed to have walked all by herself in pitch dark? As timid and as frightened as she was?

There was defiantly lighting outside, that was the justification for closing the sliding door as the lamp outside was shining into the bedroom.

 

[Ardoch]

It doesn't add up. The poor girl with balance and gait issues, missing all that time, in that terrain, and having no visible injuries. IMO

 

[Cascadia Mount]

They sound like such a great family. Lots of activities together. It's very sad.

 

[Officer Dibble]

The narrator said that Nora was found at a distance of about 2,5 km from the Dusun/Sora! (he said: not 1 km as stated in the Sun, but 2,5 km)
And he says that the garden of the Dusun is unlit at night. No lighting at all so that visitors can watch the stars.

Nora is supposed to have walked all by herself in pitch dark? As timid and as frightened as she was?

What time is first natural light?