MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[dexter75]

Sure, if they're written by open minded people.

And O'Donnell? He's open minded?
I thought JF was very objective from the very beginning of this case.
He didn't sugar coat anything on Averys behalf, and I haven't found any discrepancies in his work pertaining to this case as of yet. (JMO )If anyone has, please let me know as its important to me to have facts and information from open minded individuals, not to be confused with like minded individuals.

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[dexter75]

According to what I've read the 'red trailer' mentioned by the dog handler is one of the trailers at the 'deer camp' and NOT Steven's home.

ETA: Notice the report says the bloodhound tracking Teresa was at RADANT QUARRY - so no scent of Teresa was followed from Avery's.



Obviously, if we were going to hear about the bloodhound at the trial, we should hear from the dog's handler and not some random dude who says he heard the handler say something.

Yes
IMO
This would be the PROPER/PROFESSIONAL way to conduct a trial.
Judge didn't seem to mind much what went on.

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[dexter75]

BBM

Yes, if the handler testified truthfully that no dog hit on Avery's home or garage, but did track Teresa at a location Steven never went near their whole case would be even more obviously a fraud perpetrated on the courts and the public.

Absolutely!

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[proudfootz]

This is where I think his lawyers dropped the ball. The voicemails, and the last cell tower. They seem to be important, and whether they missed it (I think Buting has said that they did in regards to the cell tower since Zellner filed in August) or skipped them for other reasons, I don't know. They did have a Cingular employee testify about the VM's, and he said a few times that he couldn't tell when VM's were erased with the report he had, why didn't they ask if he could get that report and what it said??? I wonder if Zellner has that report??? Maybe they did have it and it was somewhere in the mountain of documents.

In many ways the defense's hands were tied due to the Denny ruling.

The State not only had a huge financial and resource advantage, but they could also accuse someone using a lower standard of evidence than required of the defense.

...the precedent established in State v. Denny, wherein the court adopted a “legitimate tendency” test for third-party liability evidence. The Wisconsin Supreme Court defines this “legitimate tendency” test as follows:

Third-party defense evidence may be admissible under the legitimate tendency test if the defendant can show that the third party had (1) the motive and (2) the opportunity to commit the charged crime, and (3) can provide some evidence to directly connect the third person to the crime charged which is not remote in time, place or circumstance.

The court deemed the introduction of any other suspects inadmissible “because the defendant does not contend any of the other persons present at the Avery property on October 31, 2005, had a motive to murder Teresa Halbach or commit the other crimes alleged to have been committed against her.”



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ry-thinks-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach.html

The State didn't have to prove motive, and the court blithely assumed the crime was committed on the Avery property.

Hard to prevail when the deck is heavily stacked against you.

 

[dexter75]

So, you didn't like the documentary I take it? I'm sorry Madeleine. I'm right there with you on the reports and transcripts😊
Don't know where we would be without them❤


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[dexter75]

Since the evidence that a bloodhound tracking Teresa to a different location while Steven was provably at home reflects well on his admitting his complete innocence of any crime against her, the reason for objecting to hearsay evidence is likely a technical one rather than something allegedly sinister.

What is curious is why police and the prosecution had little to no interest in who was covering their tracks by deleting Teresa's voicemails shortly after her disappearance, and I assume Kratz had a fit when this was brought up and didn't want any exploration of that issue discussed in open court.

What is even more curious my friend?
Is all of the " Justice for Teresa " and
" what about Teresa " voices seem to not be too concerned with the person who repeatedly called her that day. With the deleted voice-mail(s)
With the MULTIPLE CALLS between Ryan and Law enforcement after all was said & done.
Personally, I would HAVE TO HAVE ANSWERS.
This drives me bonkers! Not just the missing pieces, knowing someone might have gotten away with murder?
Not good.
JMO

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[dexter75]

In many ways the defense's hands were tied due to the Denny ruling.

The State not only had a huge financial and resource advantage, but they could also accuse someone using a lower standard of evidence than required of the defense.

...the precedent established in State v. Denny, wherein the court adopted a “legitimate tendency” test for third-party liability evidence. The Wisconsin Supreme Court defines this “legitimate tendency” test as follows:

Third-party defense evidence may be admissible under the legitimate tendency test if the defendant can show that the third party had (1) the motive and (2) the opportunity to commit the charged crime, and (3) can provide some evidence to directly connect the third person to the crime charged which is not remote in time, place or circumstance.

The court deemed the introduction of any other suspects inadmissible “because the defendant does not contend any of the other persons present at the Avery property on October 31, 2005, had a motive to murder Teresa Halbach or commit the other crimes alleged to have been committed against her.”



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ry-thinks-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach.html

The State didn't have to prove motive, and the court blithely assumed the crime was committed on the Avery property.

Hard to prevail when the deck is heavily stacked against you.

That law...
I hated that frickin " unique only to WI" law and it gave me a lump in my throat from the word GO!
Deck was stacked from the beginning on so many levels.
IMO


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[ILoveDateline]

Finally finished MaM! Woohoo... in a way, 🙁 in others.

From the turns the thread has taken recently, I. E. Hounds, I have so much reading to do. Any tips on the most significant parts to review? I've listened to the early interviews with SA and BD. I'm not impressed with those so far.

BTW, I don't think I've mentioned but my dad and brother have worked at an auto wreckers yard for a combined 65 years. I don't know if I can offer any insight. The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, is that hand wounds are common. So common. I didn't think twice when first researching TH disappearance, when it was just that, and KK made the announcement that the "evidence of human nature" (I hope I'm remembering that correctly) is consistent with recent media reports indicating the cut on SA's hand. It stuck out so much I checked to see if he mentioned the link to the cut before finding the blood in the Rav. Of course, it wasnt that simple and he didn't but I was hoping it was.

All MO.

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[missy1974]

Finally finished MaM! Woohoo... in a way, �� in others.

From the turns the thread has taken recently, I. E. Hounds, I have so much reading to do. Any tips on the most significant parts to review? I've listened to the early interviews with SA and BD. I'm not impressed with those so far.

BTW, I don't think I've mentioned but my dad and brother have worked at an auto wreckers yard for a combined 65 years. I don't know if I can offer any insight. The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, is that hand wounds are common. So common. I didn't think twice when first researching TH disappearance, when it was just that, and KK made the announcement that the "evidence of human nature" (I hope I'm remembering that correctly) is consistent with recent media reports indicating the cut on SA's hand. It stuck out so much I checked to see if he mentioned the link to the cut before finding the blood in the Rav. Of course, it wasnt that simple and he didn't but I was hoping it was.

All MO.

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geesh, I'm not sure where you should start lol

I will give you a few suggestions and some great links

First, bookmark this site: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/ shortly after MaM aired, there was a crowdfunding effort to obtain all the transcripts, exhibits, some photo's (they were stupid expensive), they are all on this site.

From that site, you can start by reading the transcript of the trial. Here is a day-to-day index, gives a quick overview of who is testifying and links you directly to their testimony http://www.stevenaverycase.org/jury-trial-index/

Under Miscellaneous records, you will find the CASO (Calumet County Sheriff's Dept. report, it's over 1000 pages!!) http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf

you will also find MTSO's report (Manitowoc County Sheriff's Dept report, much shorter )
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

If you would like to see what was filed in Avery's Civil Suit against MTSO: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/civilsuitdocuments/

I hope this helps ILoveDateline

If you have any questions or are looking for something and can't find it, let me know, I will see if I can find a link for you There is a boatload of info out there now that wasn't available a year ago, I remember waiting impatiently for these documents LOL

Oh and... if you would like to read Brendan's trial transcripts, they are stickied at the top of forum here I believe in that thread, there is also links to all of his interrogations, or the one's that they recorded ;-)


ETA: I'm not sure if you had mentioned about your Dad and brother. Thanks for your perspective! I still think even now, no one really knows for sure when he got the cut, but I do think I recall reading that he had lots of cuts/marks on his arms and it was just normal in the business.

 

[missy1974]

In many ways the defense's hands were tied due to the Denny ruling.

The State not only had a huge financial and resource advantage, but they could also accuse someone using a lower standard of evidence than required of the defense.

...the precedent established in State v. Denny, wherein the court adopted a “legitimate tendency” test for third-party liability evidence. The Wisconsin Supreme Court defines this “legitimate tendency” test as follows:

Third-party defense evidence may be admissible under the legitimate tendency test if the defendant can show that the third party had (1) the motive and (2) the opportunity to commit the charged crime, and (3) can provide some evidence to directly connect the third person to the crime charged which is not remote in time, place or circumstance.

The court deemed the introduction of any other suspects inadmissible “because the defendant does not contend any of the other persons present at the Avery property on October 31, 2005, had a motive to murder Teresa Halbach or commit the other crimes alleged to have been committed against her.”



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ry-thinks-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach.html

The State didn't have to prove motive, and the court blithely assumed the crime was committed on the Avery property.

Hard to prevail when the deck is heavily stacked against you.

ahhh yes, I forget about that dang Denny rule. There was only so much they could do or say or ask.

Thanks for reminding me proudfootz

 

[ILoveDateline]

geesh, I'm not sure where you should start lol

I will give you a few suggestions and some great links

First, bookmark this site: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/ shortly after MaM aired, there was a crowdfunding effort to obtain all the transcripts, exhibits, some photo's (they were stupid expensive), they are all on this site.

From that site, you can start by reading the transcript of the trial. Here is a day-to-day index, gives a quick overview of who is testifying and links you directly to their testimony http://www.stevenaverycase.org/jury-trial-index/

Under Miscellaneous records, you will find the CASO (Calumet County Sheriff's Dept. report, it's over 1000 pages!!) http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf

you will also find MTSO's report (Manitowoc County Sheriff's Dept report, much shorter )
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

If you would like to see what was filed in Avery's Civil Suit against MTSO: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/civilsuitdocuments/

I hope this helps ILoveDateline

If you have any questions or are looking for something and can't find it, let me know, I will see if I can find a link for you There is a boatload of info out there now that wasn't available a year ago, I remember waiting impatiently for these documents LOL

Oh and... if you would like to read Brendan's trial transcripts, they are stickied at the top of forum here I believe in that thread, there is also links to all of his interrogations, or the one's that they recorded ;-)

Awesome. Now, how do I save your post?

I'm slowly making my way though the trial files.

I actually think poor Brendan needs/deserves more help than SA. JMO. But, *is* there such a thing as being institutionalised? I fear both might be....

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[missy1974]

I'm not sure how you can save the post ILoveDateline Maybe just make a note of the post number and thread?

I agree about BD.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Finally finished MaM! Woohoo... in a way,  in others.

From the turns the thread has taken recently, I. E. Hounds, I have so much reading to do. Any tips on the most significant parts to review? I've listened to the early interviews with SA and BD. I'm not impressed with those so far.

BTW, I don't think I've mentioned but my dad and brother have worked at an auto wreckers yard for a combined 65 years. I don't know if I can offer any insight. The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, is that hand wounds are common. So common. I didn't think twice when first researching TH disappearance, when it was just that, and KK made the announcement that the "evidence of human nature" (I hope I'm remembering that correctly) is consistent with recent media reports indicating the cut on SA's hand. It stuck out so much I checked to see if he mentioned the link to the cut before finding the blood in the Rav. Of course, it wasnt that simple and he didn't but I was hoping it was.

All MO.

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.
Don't know if I've offically said :welcome4:!!!

It's great to have someone here that is familiar with salvage yards! Your perspective will prove to be invaluable. I never really thought about how common it would be to get cut, so thanks for pointing that out.

IIRC, and Missy has the best memory in the world! (I would hate to be one of her kids...LOL) but didn't SA cut his hand on the tin for the roofing up in Crivitz???

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I'm not sure how you can save the post ILoveDateline Maybe just make a note of the post number and thread?

I agree about BD.

I would use the snipping tool and save it as a picture....

 

[missy1974]

.
Don't know if I've offically said :welcome4:!!!

It's great to have someone here that is familiar with salvage yards! Your perspective will prove to be invaluable. I never really thought about how common it would be to get cut, so thanks for pointing that out.

IIRC, and Missy has the best memory in the world! (I would hate to be one of her kids...LOL) but didn't SA cut his hand on the tin for the roofing up in Crivitz???

Yep, my kids don't like it so much! :hills:

It is somewhere in the documents that it was said, but I don't know who or how reliable it was.

 

[Limaes]

According to what I've read the 'red trailer' mentioned by the dog handler is one of the trailers at the 'deer camp' and NOT Steven's home.

ETA: Notice the report says the bloodhound tracking Teresa was at RADANT QUARRY - so no scent of Teresa was followed from Avery's.



Obviously, if we were going to hear about the bloodhound at the trial, we should hear from the dog's handler and not some random dude who says he heard the handler say something.

What is it that you've read?

The report does not state that the bloodhound started in the quarry. Riemer, in another report, referred to SA's trailer as the "red house trailer" also along with referencing SA's bedroom as the south bedroom and the 2nd one the north bedroom just as he described the south entry door with the concrete stoop in his report. Heading in a westerly direction from the deer camp trailer would not lead you to the Kuss rd cul-de-sac. Other investigators also described the cul-de-sac as being west of the Avery property.

The defence could have called her, but didn't.

 

[Limaes]

LOL again, I should have kept reading. This is my understanding too, it was the deer camp trailer. I just cannot believe that they would not have had the handler testify if it was SA's trailer. They had another one testify, but not this one.

I also agree, it was hearsay, and Buting was doing his job. However, they probably should have called the other handler, Fausk or even the officer that was with her to get that info into the trial. Of course KK wasn't going to do that, it would work against him. JMO

I don't think Riemer was qualified to testify about the dog's behaviour. Very telling that the defense did not want this put before the jury imo.

 

[Limaes]

BBM

Yes, if the handler testified truthfully that no dog hit on Avery's home or garage, but did track Teresa at a location Steven never went near their whole case would be even more obviously a fraud perpetrated on the courts and the public.

Actually, Brutus, the cadaver dog, was wanting to go behind the garage on the 5th (IIRC) but she had to pull him back because SA's dog was there. This is one area I feel the investigators could have done differently. Imo, SA's dog should have been removed from the property straight away. I believe they would have found her cremains that day. But I have the benefit of hindsight when I say this.

 

[Limaes]

Since the evidence that a bloodhound tracking Teresa to a different location while Steven was provably at home reflects well on his admitting his complete innocence of any crime against her, the reason for objecting to hearsay evidence is likely a technical one rather than something allegedly sinister.

What is curious is why police and the prosecution had little to no interest in who was covering their tracks by deleting Teresa's voicemails shortly after her disappearance, and I assume Kratz had a fit when this was brought up and didn't want any exploration of that issue discussed in open court.

There is no evidence. It is pure speculation. That includes both the bloodhound and the so called deleted voicemails. The unsaved ones may have been purged. There was nothing stopping the defense from portraying any evidence of deletion to the jury.

 

[Limaes]

.
Oh to have been a drone over the area when this happened.....

I just had a thought. IMHO, someone is talking. What if that person is SA??? You say, what could he say?

What if....half the story is true...

What if...SA and JR had planned to lure TH? We do know they had a conversation about clearing brush and SA doing the work for him. So, we do know the 2 talked.

What if their motivation was to SA her?

But, what if...he is really isn't the killer?

What if he walked over with her to the deer camp and JR actually killed her?

Just thinking out loud.

I understand what you're saying but I feel SA would have pointed the finger at JR immediately. JMO