Mark Smich: Innocent Dupe? Alternative Theories

[Kamille]

That place where MS was arrested is about 30 min away on foot from his house and across the QEW. Pretty early too IMO so was likely tipped off that LE was after him. Is it possible he was elsewhere and making his way back home that morning?

Did he still have a girlfriend at the time? Maybe he was coming home from her place?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Did he still have a girlfriend at the time? Maybe he was coming home from her place?

The relationship with the GF endures?

A new charge has been laid against one of Tim Bosma's accused killers for allegedly breaching a court order not to have contact with his girlfriend.

Mark Smich was charged Monday by Det. Mark Carbone of the Toronto police homicide unit. Documents filed with the courthouse in Etobicoke say the alleged breach of recognizance happened between April 10 and July 31 of last year while Smich was in custody at the Toronto West Detention Centre.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/

 

[swedie]

As you know, the Kijiji ads are no longer online. However, here is where it was discussed in 2013...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?221366-General-Discussion-and-Theories-3/page4

And here again in 2014...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?240759-Tim-Bosma-Dellen-Millard-amp-Mark-Smich-chgd-w-Murder-Christina-Noudga-Accessory/page18




No, actually you did. You said..

and that's what I was reponding to.



It's my understanding that most stolen cars are shipped to Africa and the Middle East, but also to other places abroad. Often with VIN's and plates intact.



http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2009/07/11/vehicles_stolen_in_gta_shipped_around_the_world.html



http://globalnews.ca/news/1730368/canadian-cars-shipped-overseas-may-be-linked-to-terrorism-ibc/



Once again, I was responding to your suggestion that the same gun was used for all three murders. As a reminder, what you said was:


Do you really think it's possible that MWJ sold DM a pre-1898 gun or a black powder reproduction??? If he did, I can pretty well guarantee you that it wasn't used in any of the three alleged murders.

HTH and JMO

Police in southern Ontario have arrested six men and laid more than 500 charges in connection to a massive chop shop and insurance fraud racket operating out of Toronto and the Niagara Region.

HTH Alethea. Police allege the suspects would steal vehicles and register them with vehicle identification numbers taken from cars and trucks that had been written off and purchased as salvaged parts.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/police-bust-massive-auto-chop-shop-fraud-ring-1.769480

Although this is a US article, the GTA is not far from US borders. DM has made the trek to Mexico at least once that we know of. And a couple more interesting tidbits. HTH and MOO.

Thousands of vehicles worth hundreds of millions are stolen and taken to Mexico every year.

Weapons were used in about 90% of carjackings.
Thieves tend to put more time and effort into stealing very popular cars.

http://www.carthiefstoppers.com/auto-theft-statistics.html

A criminal organization consists of a static or fluid group of (2 or more) individuals who communicate, co-operate, and conspire within an ongoing collective or network; and has as one of its main purposes or activities the facilitation or commission of offences undertaken or planned to generate material benefits or financial gain.


A report by Europol indicates that the market for second hand vehicles at a cheap price always exists, particularly in countries which are not as economically developed or do not manufacture vehicles themselves25. As a result, vehicles stolen within Canada may be destined for a number of locations. Stolen vehicles that are shipped out of Montréal or Toronto may first arrive in the United States and from there travel to Europe, South America or East Africa. Stolen vehicles that are shipped out of the port of Halifax are likely to arrive eventually in Eastern Europe. Stolen vehicles moved through the port of Vancouver often end up in Asia. Recently, there has been evidence of vehicles stolen in both Toronto and Montréal that have been shipped to Edmonton, and from there through the United States and on to Mexico26.


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-563-x/85-563-x2004001-eng.htm

BBM - Isn't that what I said? :clap: You can pretty much guarantee? Are you suggesting DM was picky with the type of gun used or do you have another suggestion? MOO.


A bit of info on What Guns are Antiques in Canada? HTH.
http://www.firearmstraining.ca/antiquegun.html

 

[swedie]

His current truck did just fine on the last trip to Baja. It's my understanding that it isn't an easy task to sway a Cummings Diesel engine into DM's truck. Again, the discussion took place 2 years ago. A good place to start might be around here...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?221366-General-Discussion-and-Theories-3/page4

There was lots of discussion in here about the grocery cart in the back of his truck. Also lots of discussion about seadoos and X-boxes that he bought for his friends to use. Sorry you've been away so long and missed all that.

JMO

Re the phone calls, then I guess LE either found a way to determine who bought it and haven't announced that, or found a way to determine whose voice was on the calls.

BBM - Do you know this as a matter of fact or is it just your assumption? How do you know it didn't break down on the way there or back or some time after DM returned from Mexico? MOO.

 

[swedie]

Yes, they brought in extra security for his first court appearance too.



http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3236885-clairmont-accused-bosma-killer-cowers-in-court/

A lot of money spent for a mellow stoner IMO.

How do we know the security wasn't there to protect MS from DM? He also made an appearance that day.

A mellow stoner and a serial killer...alleged. MOO.

BBM - :lol:

Smich's demeanour in court was in sharp contrast to his co-accused. Millard stood tall in the box while he was charged, facing the court clerk, his hands clasped in front of him. He spoke clearly and forcefully when asked his name and took a long, good look around the courtroom.

After Smich's appearance, Dungey spoke briefly with journalists in the courthouse hallway, refusing to go outside in front of cameras. (Cameras cannot be used inside Canadian courthouses.)

"At this point, Mr. Smich will be pleading not guilty," he told the media. "We will be defending this case vigorously on this trial, and there will be no other comments made at this time."

Compare that to Deepak Paradkar, the Toronto lawyer defending Millard. He stood on the courthouse steps, scrummed by at least two dozen journalists, and answered questions for nearly 15 minutes before passing out his business cards.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3236885-clairmont-accused-bosma-killer-cowers-in-court/

 

[swedie]

In this pressor at 17:25. Wonder what that information was? No witness? But then Det. Kav said they are working on getting a statement from that person. Then reporter asked, did THEY...and Det. Kav's response was, no THEY didn't. :waitasec:

Reporter: You said there was an eyewitness who saw the truck driving through Brantford on Monday.

Det. Kav: No I didn't, I said information...that the truck was ah

Reporter: OK was there an eyewitness who actually saw the truck driving through?

Det. Kav: The information we have we're working on that right now to provide, get a statement from that person.

Reporter: Did they know how many people were in the truck?

Det. Kav: No they didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQvNrsjgBk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Alethea Dice]

Police in southern Ontario have arrested six men and laid more than 500 charges in connection to a massive chop shop and insurance fraud racket operating out of Toronto and the Niagara Region.

HTH Alethea. Police allege the suspects would steal vehicles and register them with vehicle identification numbers taken from cars and trucks that had been written off and purchased as salvaged parts.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/police-bust-massive-auto-chop-shop-fraud-ring-1.769480

Although this is a US article, the GTA is not far from US borders. DM has made the trek to Mexico at least once that we know of. And a couple more interesting tidbits. HTH and MOO.

Thousands of vehicles worth hundreds of millions are stolen and taken to Mexico every year.

Weapons were used in about 90% of carjackings.
Thieves tend to put more time and effort into stealing very popular cars.

http://www.carthiefstoppers.com/auto-theft-statistics.html

A criminal organization consists of a static or fluid group of (2 or more) individuals who communicate, co-operate, and conspire within an ongoing collective or network; and has as one of its main purposes or activities the facilitation or commission of offences undertaken or planned to generate material benefits or financial gain.


A report by Europol indicates that the market for second hand vehicles at a cheap price always exists, particularly in countries which are not as economically developed or do not manufacture vehicles themselves25. As a result, vehicles stolen within Canada may be destined for a number of locations. Stolen vehicles that are shipped out of Montréal or Toronto may first arrive in the United States and from there travel to Europe, South America or East Africa. Stolen vehicles that are shipped out of the port of Halifax are likely to arrive eventually in Eastern Europe. Stolen vehicles moved through the port of Vancouver often end up in Asia. Recently, there has been evidence of vehicles stolen in both Toronto and Montréal that have been shipped to Edmonton, and from there through the United States and on to Mexico26.


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-563-x/85-563-x2004001-eng.htm

BBM - Isn't that what I said? :clap: You can pretty much guarantee? Are you suggesting DM was picky with the type of gun used or do you have another suggestion? MOO.


A bit of info on What Guns are Antiques in Canada? HTH.
http://www.firearmstraining.ca/antiquegun.html

Respectfully, Swedie, my post was about the trend of stolen vehicles being shipped out of the country in recent years. It wasn't about chop shops working within Canada (your first link, which doesn't even mention Mexico), or what happens to cars in border U.S. border cities (your second link, since Toronto is neither a U.S. city or a border city), or what was happening to cars back in 2002 (your third 2002 archived link, which makes the word "recently" in your bolded quote irrelevant).

I guess you don't know much about guns, do you. But even without any knowledge of guns, if the gun sold was a pre-1898 antique, then MWJ wouldn't have been charged with selling an illegal gun to DM, would he? Since the gun would not have been illegal. And as was pointed out earlier, LE has apparently said the gun used to kill WM was the gun purchased from MWJ and you previously stated that you believed the same gun was used in all three murders.

HTH and JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

BBM - Do you know this as a matter of fact or is it just your assumption? How do you know it didn't break down on the way there or back or some time after DM returned from Mexico? MOO.

Do you know for a fact that it broke down? I can base my assumption that it did just fine on the facts that it got him there in time for the race, it got him back home again, and it continued to be in his possession two years later.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

How do we know the security wasn't there to protect MS from DM? He also made an appearance that day.

A mellow stoner and a serial killer...alleged. MOO.

BBM - :lol:

Smich's demeanour in court was in sharp contrast to his co-accused. Millard stood tall in the box while he was charged, facing the court clerk, his hands clasped in front of him. He spoke clearly and forcefully when asked his name and took a long, good look around the courtroom.

After Smich's appearance, Dungey spoke briefly with journalists in the courthouse hallway, refusing to go outside in front of cameras. (Cameras cannot be used inside Canadian courthouses.)

"At this point, Mr. Smich will be pleading not guilty," he told the media. "We will be defending this case vigorously on this trial, and there will be no other comments made at this time."

Compare that to Deepak Paradkar, the Toronto lawyer defending Millard. He stood on the courthouse steps, scrummed by at least two dozen journalists, and answered questions for nearly 15 minutes before passing out his business cards.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3236885-clairmont-accused-bosma-killer-cowers-in-court/

Actually, no, DM did not make an appearance that day. DM was in court on May 15th and that is the day he was charged with murder and the day that DP was interviewed.

http://www.news1130.com/2013/05/15/search-for-tim-bosma-now-focused-on-airport-related-to-suspect-dellen-millard/

MS was arrested on May 22nd and was in court on May 23 to be charged with murder.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3236885-clairmont-accused-bosma-killer-cowers-in-court/

They didn't start attending on the same dates until the next court date on June 13th. The extra security was all for MS's appearance that day.

HTH

 

[swedie]

Since I seem to be glued to youtube, there's also this video showing the trailer being towed away from MB's place. There's been so much speculation etc, that it's kind of refreshing to go back to the early reports. Now, IMHO, that's not your everyday trailer. It's a very large trailer as compared to the other vehicles in the vicinity and would have definitely taken some skill and experience to back into MB's driveway. I seriously doubt that MS would have ever have garnered enough experience at handling a trailer, let alone one this size- without some heavy duty experience, he'd being trying to park it for an hour. Further, I am thinking that parking something this big was a 2 person job. MOO
[video]https://youtu.be/nva7JKUwt68[/video]

Agree. In this video at 1:20 the reporter said that all the seats had been removed from TB's truck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFtHm8AExgA

 

[matou]

If DM really wanted to get a new truck legitimately, why did he need someone to go with him? Was he worried that someone was going to attack HIM? If he really wanted a truck, he would have parked his Yukon in view, gone with Tim, returned when he was done, made a decision about whether he wanted to buy the truck or not, walked over to his own vehicle and driven off. End of story for DM.
A man would continue on with his life as a husband and father. He would watch as his baby grew older.

Smich was not the buyer or "buyer" of this truck or any of the trucks IMO. JMO

 

[swedie]

If DM really wanted to get a new truck legitimately, why did he need someone to go with him? Was he worried that someone was going to attack HIM? If he really wanted a truck, he would have parked his Yukon in view, gone with Tim, returned when he was done, made a decision about whether he wanted to buy the truck or not, walked over to his own vehicle and driven off. End of story for DM.
A man would continue on with his life as a husband and father. He would watch as his baby grew older.

Smich was not the buyer or "buyer" of this truck or any of the trucks IMO. JMO

:goodpost:
Absolutely Matou. The fact there are so many things linking DM to Tim's murder certainly makes him appear guilty. The two witnesses descriptions including tattoos, the burner phone traced back to DM, the farmland where TB's remains were found, the incinerator, the Yukon, DM having a Dodge and people speculating he was having mechanical problems with it, the hangar belonging to DM with stolen items/vehicles in it, he was interested in mechanics/racing/vehicles, the death of his father, the disappearance and alleged murder of LB, the purchase of a condo the day after TB disappeared, the possibility he wanted his father dead for the inheritance, folding MA days after WM's death, the gun allegedly purchased from MWJ, the holster, the gamer tag picture of DM with the injury to his eye, DM's trailer with TB's truck in it, in MB's driveway, etc., etc, etc.

What do we have on MS? Petty criminal with drugs possession charges, graffiti, and a DUI, two witnesses descriptions, a gore music video he was hired to do by his friend, some neighbours were not fond of him. MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

If DM really wanted to get a new truck legitimately, why did he need someone to go with him? Was he worried that someone was going to attack HIM? If he really wanted a truck, he would have parked his Yukon in view, gone with Tim, returned when he was done, made a decision about whether he wanted to buy the truck or not, walked over to his own vehicle and driven off. End of story for DM.
A man would continue on with his life as a husband and father. He would watch as his baby grew older.

I agree. DM wouldn't have needed someone to go with him. He could have done the test drive, arranged for the payment to buy the truck and left.

Did MS have a vehicle? If not, MS would need someone to go with him though, even if just to supply him with the ride to get there.

JMO

 

[Juballee]

:goodpost:
Absolutely Matou. The fact there are so many things linking DM to Tim's murder certainly makes him appear guilty. The two witnesses descriptions including tattoos, the burner phone traced back to DM, the farmland where TB's remains were found, the incinerator, the Yukon, DM having a Dodge and people speculating he was having mechanical problems with it, the hangar belonging to DM with stolen items/vehicles in it, he was interested in mechanics/racing/vehicles, the death of his father, the disappearance and alleged murder of LB, the purchase of a condo the day after TB disappeared, the possibility he wanted his father dead for the inheritance, folding MA days after WM's death, the gun allegedly purchased from MWJ, the holster, the gamer tag picture of DM with the injury to his eye, DM's trailer with TB's truck in it, in MB's driveway, etc., etc, etc.

What do we have on MS? Petty criminal with drugs possession charges, graffiti, and a DUI, two witnesses descriptions, a gore music video he was hired to do by his friend, some neighbours were not fond of him. MOO.

Out of all the 'facts' listed above that supposedly tie DM in stronger than MS, only a couple are actual facts as we currently know them. Please explain to me how buying a condo makes someone appear guilty of murder? I would like to know because I was going to buy a condo, but I wouldn't want anyone to think I am a murderer for it. I may be having mechanical issues with one of my vehicles too, I hope no one thinks I stole a truck because of that. Oh no, I just realized that I also have a deceased father, that's three 'facts' that make me appear guilty of murder, according to the list above. My point is that most of the things above that are being described as proof of guilt are not facts at this point, nor are they evidence of a crime, in my opinion. Like I say, people buy condos, have car trouble or lose a parent all the time without it ever being used against them as proof of murder.

If MS were the innocent dupe being set up for a murder he didn't commit, why would DM set it up so that all the evidence points towards himself instead of MS? Isn't that the whole point of framing someone, to put the evidence at their feet instead of at your own? This just actually makes it sound as if the one who had already been to jail because of his past criminal record was smart enough to make it look like it was his friend instead of him. If DM was framing MS, why wouldn't he leave the truck at MS's place, why wouldn't he leave the body on MS's family property? Why wouldn't he be the one wearing his hood up like a disguise when they approached TB if he were the only one who knew what was going to happen?

 

[matou]

DM seems to have many friends who could have accompanied him on the quest to purchase a truck. Many friends who were very much into vehicles and knew technical information about engines and such. So why did Smich go along? He wasn't a hangar rat nor did he go to the Baja races. Anyone could have helped car jockey his Yukon for him, I suppose. But a friend with techie knowledge would have been the obvious choice. Also a friend who didn't look so sketchy either.

 

[Kamille]

DM seems to have many friends who could have accompanied him on the quest to purchase a truck. Many friends who were very much into vehicles and knew technical information about engines and such. So why did Smich go along? He wasn't a hangar rat nor did he go to the Baja races. Anyone could have helped car jockey his Yukon for him, I suppose. But a friend with techie knowledge would have been the obvious choice. Also a friend who didn't look so sketchy either.

Just jumping off your post to add a few thoughts....

You'd think the buyer of the truck would have made the original calls to meet the owners. You'd also think the buyer would want to actually test drive the vehicles rather than sit in the back seat. You'd think DM might question MS's interest in 25-35 thousand dollar used Ram trucks and what bank was going to lend him the money or where he just happened to have 35 grand cash stashed to pay for these vehicles. You'd think DM might question why he was expected, on two separate occasions, to hide his own vehicle and walk up to the owners home/place of business.

DM knew that MS had a criminal history. No one is that trusting or gullible IMO. And I believe MS knew they were stealing that vehicle as well. Whether he knew DM was willing to kill for it is another story.

The cost to replace DM's truck, required to haul that trailer, with another one with the same features (crew cab, dual rear suspension, fifth wheel trailer hook up etc) and also with the coveted Cummins Diesel engine, would have been about $80,000 (current MSRP without the hitch $78,235 before tax and licensing). The cost just for the engine, not including all the modification parts, would have been about $21,000. Doubt that engine and mod parts could have been ordered and installed in time to get to Baja for that race anyway if DM had chosen to go the more frugal and legal route. There appears to be a history of stolen vehicles and vehicle modifications in both hangars. Was the engine in the jeep the original? I know it was heavily modified. And there were two of them in those pics. Was only one put up for sale?

Was MS an innocent dupe? In truck/car jacking I don't think so. Which is why he was on these excursions and not one of DM's more above board car friends. In being involved in a murder and body disposal to get the vehicle? Quite possibly.

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

DM seems to have many friends who could have accompanied him on the quest to purchase a truck. Many friends who were very much into vehicles and knew technical information about engines and such. So why did Smich go along? He wasn't a hangar rat nor did he go to the Baja races. Anyone could have helped car jockey his Yukon for him, I suppose. But a friend with techie knowledge would have been the obvious choice. Also a friend who didn't look so sketchy either.

That's correct. So perhaps it was MS who was looking for a truck after all. JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Just jumping off your post to add a few thoughts....

You'd think the buyer of the truck would have made the original calls to meet the owners. You'd also think the buyer would want to actually test drive the vehicles rather than sit in the back seat. You'd think DM might question MS's interest in 25-35 thousand dollar used Ram trucks and what bank was going to lend him the money or where he just happened to have 35 grand cash stashed to pay for these vehicles. You'd think DM might question why he was expected, on two separate occasions, to hide his own vehicle and walk up to the owners home/place of business.

DM knew that MS had a criminal history. No one is that trusting or gullible IMO. And I believe MS knew they were stealing that vehicle as well. Whether he knew DM was willing to kill for it is another story.

The cost to replace DM's truck, required to haul that trailer, with another one with the same features (crew cab, dual rear suspension, fifth wheel trailer hook up etc) and also with the coveted Cummins Diesel engine, would have been about $80,000 (current MSRP without the hitch $78,235 before tax and licensing). The cost just for the engine, not including all the modification parts, would have been about $21,000. Doubt that engine and mod parts could have been ordered and installed in time to get to Baja for that race anyway if DM had chosen to go the more frugal and legal route. There appears to be a history of stolen vehicles and vehicle modifications in both hangars. Was the engine in the jeep the original? I know it was heavily modified. And there were two of them in those pics. Was only one put up for sale?

Was MS an innocent dupe? In truck/car jacking I don't think so. Which is why he was on these excursions and not one of DM's more above board car friends. In being involved in a murder and body disposal to get the vehicle? Quite possibly.

MOO

Where do you do your shopping? I built a brand new 2015 Ram 3500 with the biggest Cummins Turbo Diesel engine, and chose all the most expensive options, in Toronto, and could only get the price up to $63,610. Not sure where you're buying one for $80,000 and then paying an extra $21,000 for the engine on top.

http://www.ramtruck.ca/buildandprice/en/#/configurator/RAM/3500/16098/CAC50RMT136A0?mode=buildAndPrice&backToUrl=http:%2F%2Fwww%7Cramtruck%7Cca%2Fen%2F2015%2F3500%2Foverview&sniMode=my

When your friends buy vehicles, do you grill them on what bank they went to or where they were getting the money from? I guess I'm lucky that, in my crowd, we consider our personal finances exactly that, personal.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

Where do you do your shopping? I built a brand new 2015 Ram 3500 with the biggest Cummins Turbo Diesel engine, and chose all the most expensive options, in Toronto, and could only get the price up to $63,610. Not sure where you're buying one for $80,000 and then paying an extra $21,000 for the engine on top.

http://www.ramtruck.ca/buildandprice/en/#/configurator/RAM/3500/16098/CAC50RMT136A0?mode=buildAndPrice&backToUrl=http:%2F%2Fwww%7Cramtruck%7Cca%2Fen%2F2015%2F3500%2Foverview&sniMode=my

When your friends buy vehicles, do you grill them on what bank they went to or where they were getting the money from? I guess I'm lucky that, in my crowd, we consider our personal finances exactly that, personal.

JMO

I found this one. Where did you find yours? Building an online vehicle is not the same as finding one at a dealership that you can buy. Did your model have the dually rear wheels?

http://www.armstrongchryslerdodgeje...Ram-3500-676815e40a0a00652df1f5bd2455ab87.htm

The $21,000 is just for the engine to purchase it separately to install in his existing truck. Thought that was clear in my post. That figure comes from a rep at Peel Chrysler Dodge Jeep

http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news..._attempted_third_test_drive_of_dodge_ram.html

And yes, if I had a friend that I knew was unemployed, had taken into my home because he could not afford a place of his own, and then he told me he wanted me to call the owners in car ads and test drive used vehicles for him, that were in the $35,000 range in which you can not get dealer financing, I'd be asking some questions. And I'd feel a little used for offering up my home for him and his girlfriend to live in if he had that kind of money laying around to buy an unneccessarily large and expensive vehicle.

Most people would IMO.

MOO

 

[Juballee]

How much was TB selling his truck for? That is how much DM could replace his truck for, not only $80,000. We know this because whether it was DM or MS who was in the market to buy the Ram, they were looking at this one that cost in the $20k range. Do we have evidence that they were also looking at just buying engines alone or $80k new trucks? That is a grossly inflated value, in my opinion, and I am not sure what the point of it was, sorry.

Personally, until we have some sort of proof that DM was going to race in the Baja that year, it seems a bit of a leap to me to assume that he was racing that year and that was his motive. It was only a few weeks away, as far as I can recall. Perhaps he is the kind of person who didn't know until the last minute if he was going to go or not, but I believe that running in one of those races is something that people plan for months for, it is not usually a last minute whim. How far in advance do the tickets go on sale for, what is the cut off date to enter. These are some of the questions I would like to hear the answers to before I assume that was his motive, personally.

Was MS still living with DM when TB went missing? I had thought that he had moved out by then. Maybe DM had kicked him out and had enough of his mooching, or maybe MS got back on his feet (or made up with his mom) and moved out voluntarily. If MS got back on his feet somehow, would DM still be expected to/have a right to question how MS choose to spend his money? If you take in a friend and help them out, when does that responsibly end, and does it extend itself to give you the right to inspect their finances? Do you still get to keep tabs on their money after they have moved out, and if so, for how long?