MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #1

[SugarQueen]

I don't know much about knives but I thought spring assisted WAS a switch blade. Gravity knives are more of a gray area in many states.

Switchblade...you push a button, blade opens. Spring assist.... You use a small nub on the blade to start the blade opening, then the spring kicks in. Spring assist requires you to actually start opening the knife manually.
I believe they are all illegal in Baltimore based on the way the law is written BUT is the SA going by that OR just " switchblade"?

 

[SStarr33]

Evidence of crime.

Healthy man stopped and flees.
Man caught, cuffed, arrested, placed unsecured in van.
Refused medical care, observed numerous times.
Taken on tour of city blocks.
Arrives at Police Station on the brink of death.


Slightly OT, but if my kids get 'irate' when I try to belt them in, can I tell LE that they may bite me to avoid getting ticketed?
They really are a law unto themselves.
It's a shame for all the law abiding officers who will be tainted by their behaviour.

Hmmm, let me see....a choice between a bite from my child or a possible drug user.

You know, if you think about it, these officers told on themselves. Almost everything that has come out they told investigators.

I really don't think they thought they were doing anything wrong.

 

[SStarr33]

Looks like they are shutting down the freeway:

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/show/cbs-baltimore-live-video/

 

[KEVINinTO]

It seems that most of the trumped up charges hinge on the fact FG was not belted in. Is that grounds for 2nd degree murder charges? The policy change mandating prisoners be belted in was only communicated to the BPD force three days before FG was arrested. Prior to that officers were not required to belt in prisoners. What about school buses and public transit vehicles? They do not have seat belts. If a child gets killed in a school bus crash will the bus drivers be charged with murder?

 

[LietKynes]

And...

Why did they keep stopping to check on Mr. Grey, as well as calling the arresting officers to meet them? When looking at their extremely odd behavior in conjunction with Mr. Grey's numerous arrests over the past decade with only 1 prison stint (2009-2011), it seems quite plausible that they had a history with the guy. Moreover, we're not seeing any convictions over a 5 year span of arrests, which raises all sorts of questions. Esp in light of the lie about the knife.

This admittedly leaves me feeling that Freddie Grey's arrest and subsequent death goes well beyond usual claims of police brutality and/or incompetence, or even racism, for that matter. For example, the recent sting involving various law enforcement entities and heroine/cocaine trafficking.

Why? Bc, afaics, not only the arrest but their subsequent behavior seems very very strange. That is, their whole back and forth, come hither and yon to un/load him, take a look see, etcetera, while they're seemingly and randomly driving him around goes above and beyond way out there, to me.

RSBM

Insightful, shadowraiths ! Maybe FG was an informant who need to be silenced ? Is this particular branch of LE problematic ? Like a wormy apple ? Apologies , can't seem to stay away from cliches'.
If so, it's still possible some superiors will sacrifice the lesser, rookie officers to save themselves. And that is sad.
:moo:

 

[Sonya610]

And...

Why did they keep stopping to check on Mr. Grey, as well as calling the arresting officers to meet them? When looking at their extremely odd behavior in conjunction with Mr. Grey's numerous arrests over the past decade with only 1 prison stint (2009-2011), it seems quite plausible that they had a history with the guy. Moreover, we're not seeing any convictions over a 5 year span of arrests, which raises all sorts of questions. Esp in light of the lie about the knife.

This admittedly leaves me feeling that Freddie Grey's arrest and subsequent death goes well beyond usual claims of police brutality and/or incompetence, or even racism, for that matter. For example, the recent sting involving various law enforcement entities and heroine/cocaine trafficking.

Why? Bc, afaics, not only the arrest but their subsequent behavior seems very very strange. That is, their whole back and forth, come hither and yon to un/load him, take a look see, etcetera, while they're seemingly and randomly driving him around goes above and beyond way out there, to me.

Errrrmmmm.....so you suggest it was a big conspiracy involving all of the officers involved?

They had it out for Mr. Gray?

Why not just kill him and avoid all of the van drama? The "rough ride" was hardly a sure thing.

 

[epiphany]

Switchblade...you push a button, blade opens. Spring assist.... You use a small nub on the blade to start the blade opening, then the spring kicks in. Spring assist requires you to actually start opening the knife manually.
I believe they are all illegal in Baltimore based on the way the law is written BUT is the SA going by that OR just " switchblade"?

<snip>

The case of Savoy v. State in 1964 found that a gravity knife is similar enough to a switchblade that it is a dangerous weapon per se. A switchblade is a knife that opens when the user presses a button. The button releases a spring and the blade extends. A gravity knife is a knife that opens when a user presses the button as well. Instead of a spring, the gravity knife uses the force of gravity to extend the blade. Because of this case, gravity knives are banned in Maryland as well.

http://www.knifeup.com/maryland-knife-laws/


What this means is that you can carry any sized pocket knife you want as long as it does not have a switch that automatically opens it (or you have the intent to harm someone). Stanley v. State in 1997 also stated that the it is the state’s job to prove that the knife is not a penknife. If the opposite was true, it would be the convicted’s job to prove that his/her knife is a penknife. By placing the burden of proof on the state, the category of “penknife without a switchblade” would include more knives than if the burden of proof was on the defendant. This also reduces the defendant’s lawyer fees as well.

From here, we know that dirks, switchblades, Bowies, and throwing stars are always illegal to carry concealed. We also know that pocket knives of any size (“penkives”) are always legal to carry. What does that mean for knives that are not in either of these categories? Case precedence clarifies the issue.

http://www.knifeup.com/maryland-knife-laws/

 

[mysteriew]

Switchblade...you push a button, blade opens. Spring assist.... You use a small nub on the blade to start the blade opening, then the spring kicks in. Spring assist requires you to actually start opening the knife manually.
I believe they are all illegal in Baltimore based on the way the law is written BUT is the SA going by that OR just " switchblade"?

There is a third option also. Some knives when they get older, after being opened and closed multiple times will open if you flick your wrist just right.

But I suspect what is happening here is not that one side is lying. I suspect that it may be a difference on the definition of an illegal knife. And that is something that will ultimately have to be settled by the court. .

 

[loveamystery]

This is the Fed def of switchblade.

U.S. Code Title 15, Sect. 1241 defines switchblade knives as any knives which open "1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or any knife having a blade which opens automatically; (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both".

Thanks for posting the Federal definition. Each municipality is free to make their own definitions. There has been recent controversy in NYC over "gravity" knives. They have been illegal since the 60's because criminals substituted them when switchblades were made illegal. The original gravity knives were used by paratroopers in WWII. They open by themselves with a flick of the wrist. Nowadays, knives like these are being sold in hardware stores and people in NY have been arrested because they didn't know they were illegal.

IMO, FG's "illegal" knife will open another can of worms in Baltimore.

 

[sorrell skye]

They got arrested for arresting the victim. Seems stupid to me that they are put in jail for arresting a long time criminal for running away from them. I bet the morale on the BPD is at an all time low right now.

The locals are out in the streets dancing and celebrating right now. I wonder if they will be so thrilled when the arrests in their neighborhoods drop way off and the local gangs gain more control?

BBM

Is it a crime to run from LE - regardless of whether or not one is a so-called "long-time criminal"?

I don't think so.

In order for a lawful arrest to be made, there must be probable cause for the arrest, according to my understanding of the law. If someone is merely running from LE, and if someone has not committed a crime that justifies the arrest, then one should not be arrested, IMO.

Even is someone is an alleged "long-time criminal", the Fourth Amendment prohibits LE from searching anyone without probable cause.

At the time of FG's arrest, I don't believe LE had any justifiable probable cause to detain him, to search him, nor to arrest him.

 

[SugarQueen]

I think its time to move past the type of knife issue. Hopefully more information will come out on exactly what kind of knife FG had. For now my bet is with LE on the knife being illegal. As for the rest of the charges......

 

[SugarQueen]

There is a third option also. Some knives when they get older, after being opened and closed multiple times will open if you flick your wrist just right.

But I suspect what is happening here is not that one side is lying. I suspect that it may be a difference on the definition of an illegal knife. And that is something that will ultimately have to be settled by the court. .

Thank you Mystery! That's what I've been trying to explain. Apparently I haven't been making that clear.

 

[SCHMAE]

Protests forming in Dallas, off topic, but not really .

http://www.wfaa.com/videos/news/local/2014/08/26/14336082/

 

[popsicle]

Baltimore Police &#8207;@BaltimorePolice 5m5 minutes ago
Media Advisory: We will have a media briefing at 7:05pm tonight in front of police HQ - 601 E Fayette Street.

 

[mysteriew]

BBM

Is it a crime to run from LE - regardless of whether or not one is a so-called "long-time criminal"?

I don't think so.

In order for a lawful arrest to be made, there must be probable cause for the arrest, according to my understanding of the law. If someone is merely running from LE, and if someone has not committed a crime that justifies the arrest, then one should not be arrested, IMO.

Even is someone is an alleged "long-time criminal", the Fourth Amendment prohibits LE from searching anyone without probable cause.

At the time of FG's arrest, I don't believe LE had any justifiable probable cause to detain him, to search him, nor to arrest him.

Good points but may be confusing terms.

There is probable cause to stop and question. That one is ridiculously easy. They merely have to have a reasonable suspicion that you may be a party to, or a witness to illegal behavior.

For search, they have a suspicion that you may have weapon or illegal drugs. Officer reported he saw the knife sticking out of the pocket. Officer safety then allows them to do a frisk for weapons. Also this was a known high crime area which gives a little more leeway.

For arrest it gets harder. They have to have reason to believe that the person has to have committed a crime.

FWIW these items are always a source of contention in an arrest. Often they have to be decided on a case by case basis. Usually this is one of the first things an attorney and "persons familiar with the legal system" in whatever capacity will look at.

 

[sorrell skye]

What I do not understand is how the ME could declare the manner of death a "homicide" when the ME determined that FG struck his head on the back door. Conceivably FG tried to stand up in the back of the van and fell towards the door. With his hands cuffed he was unable to break the fall and the resulting blunt force caused the spinal injuries. This would be an accidental death not "death by other". I just watched the press conference by the Police union and a reporter asked the union lawyer if he heard about the ME being asked to change the manner of death from "accident" to "homicide".

BBM

I haven't read or heard anything from the ME's report conclusively stating that FG purposely struck his head on the back of the door in the police van (or that FG purposely struck his head against any other surface inside the police van).

IMO, this is a misrepresentation of an earlier media report (regarding the ME allegedly stating that the injury to FG's head matched a bolt in the police van).

If FG sustained a head injury that matches a bolt inside the police van, it doesn't necessarily mean it was a self-inflicted wound.

 

[vanlutz]

I haven't seen a picture of the knife. But, I did look up the statute he was arrested under, it reads "unlawfully carry, possess, and sell a knife commonly known as a switchblade knife, with an automatic spring or other device for opening and/or closing the blade within the limits of Baltimore City"

Wouldn't "Or other device" make the arrest legal?

I realize Ms Mosby feels they're guilty, but the most basic item is the definition of switchblade by the Maryland statute. How do you explain to the residents "I don't know what a switchblade is?"

 

[KEVINinTO]

I notice from the transcript of the prosecutor's statement that the arresting officers put FG in a "leg lace".

From this Youtube video you can see what a "leg lace" is. It involves twisting one leg over another.

I wonder if this is why FG had trouble standing up at first?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FErwbC09ZsI

 

[shadowraiths]

Errrrmmmm.....so you suggest it was a big conspiracy involving all of the officers involved?

They had it out for Mr. Gray?

Why not just kill him and avoid all of the van drama? The "rough ride" was hardly a sure thing.

In light of the repeated arrests with no convictions, it initially seemed like a case of protracted harassment. However, when considering the number of stops that included calling the arresting officers to the various stops, it leaves me wondering if something else wasn't going on.

As for his death, and within this context.

Imho, If, and only if, something else was going on, I highly doubt his death was their intention. Rather, his death would have been a by product of them being so focused upon "whatever it was" that they totally missed the need to get him medical attention.

So, in this context, the question remains, why the stops? Why keep calling the arresting officers to the van's various locations? Was it to threaten him not to talk about something he witnessed? Was is to ask him to spill the beans on something he witnessed? Or ... ?

In the end, I think if something was actually going on, it will come out at trial, or even possibly before. After all, we're looking at 6 people who have been charged with fairly serious crimes. A sort of prisoner's delima, if you will.

 

[LietKynes]

Protests forming in Dallas, off topic, but not really .

http://www.wfaa.com/videos/news/local/2014/08/26/14336082/

RSBM

Not off topic -- if it's in response to the FG incident. But why ? The officers are being charged. I don't know how much more is expected. What do people want--- a public hanging ? Maybe being drawn and quartered ? J/K.
People need to just be patient and wait for the results of the prosecution.
:moo: