Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[Charlie09]

No it is a fact. I have had measles and I became very sick but recovered. I had a childhood friend who contracted measles at 6-months and her "side effect" was total deafness.

MMR vaccine side effects
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/mmr-side-effects.aspx

and kids can die after the vaccination, get encephalitis, get arthritis..

 

[nrdsb4]

If there is anyone reading here who is actually concerned about what these companies are putting into these vaccines. Heck, even if you are an ultra "pro vaxxer". The next time you bring your child in for a vaccine shot, ask your doctor this question:

If my child gets sick or injured from this vaccine, who is responsible?

Ask that question, and see if you are OK with the answer you get.

JMO

My doctor always provided an information sheet with potential adverse reactions written on it. Before the vaccine was given, I was required to sign that I understood the risks and desired to give my child the vaccine in spite of those risks. I presume that if I signed that form and my child experienced one of the listed adverse reactions, neither the vaccine manufacturer nor the doctor would be responsible.

If the vaccine was given and my kid dropped dead and it was found that the syringe contained cyanide rather than vaccine or if it were found that the vaccine was contaminated with a deadly fungus or some sort of substance as a result of a mistake during manufacture or in the manner in which it was stored at the doctor's office, than either the manufacturer or the doctor could be found responsible, depending on where the mistake was made. Extreme negligence during manufacture of the vaccine or during the administration of the vaccine could overrule the signed waiver.

That's not very different from any other scenario which carries risk. If informed consent is obtained, typically the patient or parent assumes the risk.

But I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Hatfield]

Absolutely it is completely an opinion! Big Pharm gives doctors info packets directing them how to answer these questions. But I know they don't have a directive on how to answer the above question. That is why I brought it up. Do you really think they are going to tell people the truth... That Big Pharm is immune from responsibility?

Common answers to the question above are usually they stutter their words or they get very defensive and angry, or if they are quick on their feet, they will circumvent the question entirely.

Isnt it really the same though as with any medicine a doctor give you?

That is, if you have a bad reaction or even die from a medicine, that you and your family are on your own to try to sue the manufacturer OR the doctor OR whoever else you want to try to sue to get compensation for damages and future health expenses.

 

[CoolJ]

Isnt it really the same though as with any medicine a doctor give you?

That is, if you have a bad reaction or even die from a medicine, that you and your family are on your own to try to sue the manufacturer OR the doctor OR whoever else you want to try to sue to get compensation for damages and future health expenses.

No. Completely different. You cannot sue Big Pharma, no matter what they put into their vaccines. They have complete immunity when it comes to vaccines.

 

[Hatfield]

No it is a fact. I have had measles and I became very sick but recovered. I had a childhood friend who contracted measles at 6-months and her "side effect" was total deafness.

MMR vaccine side effects
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/mmr-side-effects.aspx

That is so sad to hear. I remember being very very sick from measles but recovered luckily.


I think what I heard some claim on the radio (just what I heard and not necessarily what i believe) is that a possible side effect of the vaccine could cause permanent neurological damage due to the mercury in it.

If there are documented cases where that is proven, then I can understand some trying to say the vaccine could be just as bad. I dont know about if any of that was ever proven though. Just pointing it out for discussion purposes.

This is a very interesting and important topic and I see both sides.

 

[Hatfield]

No. Completely different. You cannot sue Big Pharma, no matter what they put into their vaccines. They have complete immunity when it comes to vaccines.

ok. Thanks. I did not know that about them. Interesting.

 

[MyBelle]

Absolutely it is completely an opinion! Big Pharm gives doctors info packets directing them how to answer these questions. But I know they don't have a directive on how to answer the above question. That is why I brought it up. Do you really think they are going to tell people the truth... That Big Pharm is immune from responsibility?

Common answers to the question above are usually they stutter their words or they get very defensive and angry, or if they are quick on their feet, they will circumvent the question entirely.

That might be your opinion but there is no basis for it. Ever hear of the Center for Disease Control? That's the agency that controls and regulates "big pharm," including information given to physicians.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/

 

[MyBelle]

and kids can die after the vaccination, get encephalitis, get arthritis..

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

whether vaccinated or not for MMR, people also do die, can get encephalitis, can get arthritis.....

 

[MyBelle]

No. Completely different. You cannot sue Big Pharma, no matter what they put into their vaccines. They have complete immunity when it comes to vaccines.

That is because the government regulates what they put into vaccines....

 

[Charlie09]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

whether vaccinated or not for MMR, people also do die, can get encephalitis, can get arthritis.....

Sure, but we as citizens have the right to decide what medical procedures we get.
Parents have the right to decide if the benefits of the disease or the vaccination outweigh the risks of the other.

 

[MyBelle]

The measles vaccination can cause all the same side effects + joint pain/arthritis/etc that is a lifelong side effect - and more. It's not that parents don't want to take advantage of modern medicine...it's we don't see the value in this particular part of medicine and choose to utilize what doesn't have the side effects.

NO, the vaccine does NOT have side-effects that are "life-long." You have a duty to your child to be informed of true facts vs. myths fueling irrational hysteria. Such hysteria is endangering children, not helping them.

JMO

How likely is it for a person to develop arthritis from rubella vaccine?
Arthralgia (joint pain) and transient arthritis (joint redness or swelling) following rubella vaccination occurs only in people who were susceptible to rubella at the time of vaccination.

Joint symptoms are uncommon in children and in adult males. About 25% of non-immune post-pubertal women report joint pain after receiving rubella vaccine, and about 10% to 30% report arthritis-like signs and symptoms.

When joint symptoms occur, they generally begin 1 to 3 weeks after vaccination, usually are mild and not incapacitating, last about 2 days, and rarely recur.



http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_mmr.asp

 

[MyBelle]

Sure, but we as citizens have the right to decide what medical procedures we get.
Parents have the right to decide if the benefits of the disease or the vaccination outweigh the risks of the other.

Parents do not have a right to infect other children.

Children do not have the right to make decisions about what medical procedures they receive including immunizations. And when parents make decisions that physicians or CPS feel are placing them in danger, the state can--and will-- intervene and can mandate a quarantine.

JMO

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150205/news/150209317/

 

[Charlie09]

NO, the vaccine does NOT have side-effects that are "life-long." You have a duty to your child to be informed of true facts vs. myths fueling irrational hysteria. Such hysteria is endangering children, not helping them.

JMO

How likely is it for a person to develop arthritis from rubella vaccine?
Arthralgia (joint pain) and transient arthritis (joint redness or swelling) following rubella vaccination occurs only in people who were susceptible to rubella at the time of vaccination.

Joint symptoms are uncommon in children and in adult males. About 25% of non-immune post-pubertal women report joint pain after receiving rubella vaccine, and about 10% to 30% report arthritis-like signs and symptoms.

When joint symptoms occur, they generally begin 1 to 3 weeks after vaccination, usually are mild and not incapacitating, last about 2 days, and rarely recur.



http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_mmr.asp

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1005209/?page=2

There's differing views....
my doctor said that at 9, when diagnosed with juvenile arthritis - it was vaccine related. It's not temporary, it's been a life long problem.

 

[Charlie09]

Children do not have the right to make decisions about what medical procedures they receive including immunizations. And when parents make decisions that physicians or CPS feel are placing them in danger, the state can--and will-- intervene.

JMO

I think you are welcome to your opinion, as am I.
I don't think the state has the right to put a concoction that had side effects into my child without taking on the full responsibility of such medical experimentation.

 

[nrdsb4]

Sure, but we as citizens have the right to decide what medical procedures we get.
Parents have the right to decide if the benefits of the disease or the vaccination outweigh the risks of the other.

The government is not likely going to take away a parent's right to withhold vaccines.

States might impose consequences such as making those children ineligible to attend public school. Doctors may refuse to take on a patient whose parents withhold vaccines. Colleges may refuse to admit students who are unvaccinated. Or other such measures.

But I doubt anyone is going to physically force a vaccine on anyone.

 

[MyBelle]

I think you are welcome to your opinion, as am I.
I don't think the state has the right to put a concoction that had side effects into my child without taking on the full responsibility of such medical experimentation.

You are posting your opinion as fact. I seriously doubt your pediatrician told you that juvenile arthritis is caused by the MMR vaccine. I have provided links to the known side-effects of the vaccine.

The state does have a right to protect other children from your decisions. And if the state feels that your decisions are endangering your child, they will step in and protect your child from you.

JMO

 

[Charlie09]

You are posting your opinion as fact. I seriously doubt your pediatrician told you that juvenile arthritis is caused by the MMR vaccine. I have provided links to the known side-effects of the vaccine.

The state does have a right to protect other children from your decisions. And if the state feels that your decisions are endangering your child, they will step in and protect your child from you.

JMO

When I was a kid we went to a GP, I'm not sure when pediatricians came into vogue...it was *MY* doctor that told me that.

I've also provided information on known side effects, and suspected side effects.

 

[MyBelle]

When I was a kid we went to a GP, I'm not sure when pediatricians came into vogue...it was *MY* doctor that told me that.

I've also provided information on known side effects, and suspected side effects.

You have not provided any links to support your claim that encephalitis or juvenile arthritis are long-term side effects of the vaccine. Please either provide the links or make it clear it is just your opinion. Thanks.

 

[Charlie09]

You have not provided any links to support your claim that encephalitis or juvenile arthritis are long-term side effects of the vaccine. Please either provide the links or make it clear it is just your opinion. Thanks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1005209/?page=2

There's differing views....
my doctor said that at 9, when diagnosed with juvenile arthritis - it was vaccine related. It's not temporary, it's been a life long problem.

An analysis of claims for encephalitis following measles vaccine in the United States found
clustering of events at 8 9 days after immunization, which supports but does not prove the possibility that the vaccine causes encephalitis (Weibel, 1998; Duclos, 1998).

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/tools/MMR_vaccine_rates_information_sheet.pdf (this is the sheet that goes with every vaccination)

Encephalitis was included as one of the vaccine injuries to be compensated for under the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

 

[annahanna]

The measles vaccination can cause all the same side effects + joint pain/arthritis/etc that is a lifelong side effect - and more. It's not that parents don't want to take advantage of modern medicine...it's we don't see the value in this particular part of medicine and choose to utilize what doesn't have the side effects.

and kids can die after the vaccination, get encephalitis, get arthritis..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1005209/?page=2

There's differing views....
my doctor said that at 9, when diagnosed with juvenile arthritis - it was vaccine related. It's not temporary, it's been a life long problem.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/tools/MMR_vaccine_rates_information_sheet.pdf (this is the sheet that goes with every vaccination)

Encephalitis was included as one of the vaccine injuries to be compensated for under the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

The link you posted actually disproved your point that the MMR causes arthritis. It is also a citation from December of 1993. A great deal has been learned about both the MMR vaccine and the triggers for juvenile arthritis in the 21 years since that was written.
"....The virus used in current vaccines is Wistar RA 27/3 rubella virus. In a Canadian trial,of this vaccine arthralgia occurred in 41% of women, transient arthritis in 9% and persistent arthritis (>18 months) in 5%. Joint symptoms rarely occur in men but arthralgia occurs in 4% of children and arthritis in 0.3%."

"In both women and children the risk of frank arthritis following rubella immunization is less then that after natural rubella infection."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1005209/?page=2

"About 1 child in every 1,000 develops some type of juvenile arthritis. These disorders can affect children at any age, although rarely in the first six months of life. It is estimated that around 300,000 children in the United States have been diagnosed with JIA."
http://www.rheumatology.org/practice/clinical/patients/diseases_and_conditions/juvenilearthritis.asp

I could not find current figures on measles/rubella arthritis - probably because the vaccination rate in the US and other developed countries has been high enough to make this complication of natural measles infection rare. However, your link (and other citations) states that the rate is HIGHER in natural infection then in vaccinated cases. The links you have provided are also very old. Much medical research has been done in the past 20 years. Also, the strain of virus used in manufacturing the vaccine has changed in the past 20 years.

The rate of encephalitis following MMR vaccine is approximately 1 in 3,000,000. (And it has not been conclusively linked to a vaccine virus infection.). The rate of measles encephalitis is approximately 1 in 1,000. Those are not remotely comparable odds. Since the rate of infection is approximately 90% for susceptible people exposed to the virus, it seems that you would have better odds getting the vaccine.

"In the section Post-Marketing Reports, encephalitis (infection of the brain) was added to reflect the receipt of reports following ProQuad vaccination. Previously, this adverse reaction was listed under adverse events seen after MMR or varicella vaccination. Encephalitis has been reported approximately once for every 3 million doses of MMR vaccine. Post-marketing surveillance of more than 400 million doses distributed worldwide (1978 to 2003) indicates that encephalitis is rarely reported after MMR vaccination. In no case has it been shown conclusively that encephalitis was caused by a vaccine virus infection of the central nervous system. There was no proven causal relationship between ProQuad and any of the reported cases that prompted the change in the label.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm070425.htm

About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

You stated that when you were a kid, you went to a GP. Pediatric Rheumatologists are a rare sub-specialty (approximately 100 board certified pedis rheumatologist's in the US) today. They were even more rare 20 or 30 years ago since it was not even a recognized sub-specialty until the early 1970's. If a GP told you (when you were 9 years old) that your arthritis was triggered by vaccination, s/he was incorrect or your case is extraordinarily rare. As you know, research in rheumatology in general and pediatric rheumatology specifically has made great strides in the last 20 years or so.

Anyone choosing to not vaccinate their children due to fear of JRA/JIA or encephalitis is actually taking a bigger risk that their children will develop one of these conditions through natural infection then they would have had through vaccination.