Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

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  • #161
According to Italian law, and on appeal, Rudy's sentence was reduced from 30 years to 24 years to match the sentences of the other two culprits. After the final appeal, it was then reduced by one third due to the fact that he opted for the fast track option. Everyone that opts for the fast track option has their sentence reduced by one third, not just Rudy.

Please site the sources for this. One of the ones that says the apology did it is here:


(snip)In explaining the attenuating circumstances, the judges also mention the fact that Guede is the "only" one of the defendants to have said he was sorry to the Kercher family, "even if it (the apology) was only for not having been able to save Meredith," and not for his role in her killing.

SOURCE: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKno...0169888&page=2
 
  • #162
It is suggested, in connection with this murder investigation, that luminol evidence is not useful, that it shouldn't be trusted, that it means nothing. I think that if luminol evidence is so questionable, it should not be used at any crime scene ... yet it is. I suppose that means that luminol evidence is quite valuable.

You are not debating this point with someone (namely me) who says it the luminol test itself cannot be trusted. I never said any of the statements above.

Luminol has it's definite and important uses. An investigator's conclusions about the test results at crime scenes sometimes can and will be challenged in a court of law. This case is most likely not the only case where an investigator's report on the luminol test result interpretations have come under fire and probably won't be the last. This is not to say that anyone questioning the investigator's intepretations of the findings are saying to throw out Luminol testing. That is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

It is my understanding that footprints were discovered, as any would be in one's own home. It is my understand that a number of things can react with luminol to cause the footprints to be seen, not necessarily blood. It is my understanding that each investigator must test the spots uncovered by luminol to indeed determine what reacted with the luminol to cause the glow. It is my understanding that these footprints, no matter what cause the reaction, it wasn't blood that helped to make them. It is additionally my understanding that when one cleans up, you will see wipe streaks in luminol, not definitive outlines of what was really there. Since there were no wipe up marks, just the prints, that means there was no clean up.

For example, I spray "Out" on my floor to clean up dog messes. I don't know what's in "out" but say it has some agent that reacts with luminol. Now, I step around that damp stain, get "out" on the bottom of my feet and carry it around the house. Say a murder happens here, those prints will be uncovered by luminol, but what do those prints mean? That's the important question.
 
  • #163
You are not debating this point with someone (namely me) who says it the luminol test itself cannot be trusted. I never said any of the statements above.

Luminol has it's definite and important uses. An investigator's conclusions about the test results at crime scenes sometimes can and will be challenged in a court of law. This case is most likely not the only case where an investigator's report on the luminol test result interpretations have come under fire and probably won't be the last. This is not to say that anyone questioning the investigator's intepretations of the findings are saying to throw out Luminol testing. That is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

It is my understanding that footprints were discovered, as any would be in one's own home. It is my understand that a number of things can react with luminol to cause the footprints to be seen, not necessarily blood. It is my understanding that each investigator must test the spots uncovered by luminol to indeed determine what reacted with the luminol to cause the glow. It is my understanding that these footprints, no matter what cause the reaction, it wasn't blood that helped to make them. It is additionally my understanding that when one cleans up, you will see wipe streaks in luminol, not definitive outlines of what was really there. Since there were no wipe up marks, just the prints, that means there was no clean up.
If your understanding is correct, which it would appear to be, unless anyone can refute it, then this is even more unjust to AK and RS than I had imagined.
 
  • #164
knoxcottage-1.jpg
 
  • #165
  • #166
Saying that questioning an instance of luminol testing is the equivalent to declaring that luminol is useless and its use should be abandoned everywhere is exactly the sort of hyperbolic black/white declaration that weakens one's overall argument.

I probably would have stayed contentedly pro-verdict if this type of argument didn't exist in this thread. But I'm glad it did, because it made me stop and look for the weaknesses - and there were many.
 
  • #167
Please site the sources for this. One of the ones that says the apology did it is here:


(snip)In explaining the attenuating circumstances, the judges also mention the fact that Guede is the "only" one of the defendants to have said he was sorry to the Kercher family, "even if it (the apology) was only for not having been able to save Meredith," and not for his role in her killing.

SOURCE: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKno...0169888&page=2

Search Italian law on the internet.
 
  • #168
Ha, thanks for the pic otto. That should 'temporarily' halt this line of the conspiracy regarding the staged break in.
 
  • #169
Saying that questioning an instance of luminol testing is the equivalent to declaring that luminol is useless and its use should be abandoned everywhere is exactly the sort of hyperbolic black/white declaration that weakens one's overall argument.

I probably would have stayed contentedly pro-verdict if this type of argument didn't exist in this thread. But I'm glad it did, because it made me stop and look for the weaknesses - and there were many.

Is the luminol evidence in this particular murder case valid?
 
  • #170
Saying that questioning an instance of luminol testing is the equivalent to declaring that luminol is useless and its use should be abandoned everywhere is exactly the sort of hyperbolic black/white declaration that weakens one's overall argument.

I probably would have stayed contentedly pro-verdict if this type of argument didn't exist in this thread. But I'm glad it did, because it made me stop and look for the weaknesses - and there were many.

Darn it, we need you on the guilt side :seeya: .

Yes, seems luminol is fine for murder trials... as long as it isn't against AK.
 
  • #171
Ha, thanks for the pic otto. That should 'temporarily' halt this line of the conspiracy regarding the staged break in.

Don't hold your breath, but I'll keep the image on file for the next time ... and we know there will be a next time.
 
  • #172
Wow Oldsteve, I hadn't gone as far as suspecting FR of killing Mk.

Not sure how you mean that - but just to be clear - here is what I said, and BBM to point out I do not think FR killed MK.

Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
Regarding the keys - do we know for sure that no one else had a key to MK room? I thought MK and Filomena were close, and it is possible that Filomena had a key to M's room. I also thought that there was tension between Filomena and AK - remember in the movie how quick Filomena was to cast suspicion toward AK by saying MK never locked her room...
I say this not because I think Filomena killed MK, but I do think AK was an easy target for all to point to.
 
  • #173
Just curious: Does anyone happen to know what ever came of the original idea that AK was captured on CCTV entering the cottage? I assume it was invalidated, but I happened to come across an article from way, way back at the beginning which mentioned it:

A CCTV camera at the parking area above the cottage recorded the image of a female figure in a light coloured skirt, said to be Ms Knox (who owned such a skirt, now being analysed), entering the driveway of the cottage at 8.43pm. If the image is that of Ms Knox, and if the timing of Ms Kercher's movements is correct, Ms Knox would have been inside the cottage for about half an hour by the time Ms Kercher arrived. It is not yet clear whether the surveillance cameras captured the image of any other figures arriving at the cottage.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2858134.ece
 
  • #174
Not sure how you mean that - but just to be clear - here is what I said, and BBM to point out I do not think FR killed MK.

Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
Regarding the keys - do we know for sure that no one else had a key to MK room? I thought MK and Filomena were close, and it is possible that Filomena had a key to M's room. I also thought that there was tension between Filomena and AK - remember in the movie how quick Filomena was to cast suspicion toward AK by saying MK never locked her room...
I say this not because I think Filomena killed MK, but I do think AK was an easy target for all to point to.
Yes, I had noted in a post before that you had made it very clear you did not think FR had any involvement.
 
  • #175
No, it depends on the evidence, and facts of the case do not in any way support the idea that Laura or Filomina had locked bedrooms.

As I've said, there is no perfect theory that completely explains this crime, so some speculation is to be expected from all sides.

That being said, my gut instinct is that if any of the rooms other than MK's had been locked, it would have been mentioned in one of the news stories by now.
 
  • #176
Is the luminol evidence in this particular murder case valid?

I don't think valid/invalid is the right term here. The problem wasn't the validity or lack of validity of luminol evidence, it was in the interpretation of the evidence without substantive factual reasoning. The luminol evidence existed, but we don't know what the substance was that reacted with the luminol, we only know that there was no blood detected in the reactive material, and no smearing to indicate blood cleanup.

If I recall, this is a contentious point because of the potential perjury referenced in this thread - Allusionz (along with many others, I just recall her posts on the matter more specifically) is far more capable of speaking to that than I am as she is more familiar with those details of the case.
 
  • #177
This entire robbery theory does hinge on someone telling Rudy that Filomina collected the rent. Funny thing is that we simply cannot connect Rudy to that information. On to the next theory ...

No, it doesn't. That's merely one way to explain why FR's room seemed to be the primary target. But it's at least equally likely that FR's room was merely the first room entered and then the burglar was interrupted before he got a chance to trash the other rooms. In fact, I think the latter is the more commonly held theory.
 
  • #178
She wasn't the new girl, though.

MK and AK moved in about the same time. AK picked her room and went to Germany. In the motivation, it says that AK picked her room next to "what would become Meredith's." I take that to mean Meredith hadn't moved in yet.

You are correct. My mistake re chronology.

But hypothetically, if the older girls "clicked" better with MK, they might have thought of AK as the outsider, even though she'd been there a few days longer. I was merely saying there could be any number of reasons why Filomena and Laura tended to be unduly suspicious of AK.
 
  • #179
According to Italian law, and on appeal, Rudy's sentence was reduced from 30 years to 24 years to match the sentences of the other two culprits. After the final appeal, it was then reduced by one third due to the fact that he opted for the fast track option. Everyone that opts for the fast track option has their sentence reduced by one third, not just Rudy.

I think the reason for the confusion is that some outlets reported his sentence was reduced from life to 30 years in exchange for fast-tracking. This makes it appear his sentence was reduced twice and people (including reporters) are looking for a reason for the second reduction.

I'm not saying you're wrong, otto. On the contrary, I think your math is correct. I'm just explaining how I think the confusion arose.
 
  • #180
I don't think valid/invalid is the right term here. The problem wasn't the validity or lack of validity of luminol evidence, it was in the interpretation of the evidence without substantive factual reasoning. The luminol evidence existed, but we don't know what the substance was that reacted with the luminol, we only know that there was no blood detected in the reactive material, and no smearing to indicate blood cleanup.

If I recall, this is a contentious point because of the potential perjury referenced in this thread - Allusionz (along with many others, I just recall her posts on the matter more specifically) is far more capable of speaking to that than I am as she is more familiar with those details of the case.

That wasn't my take on the info in the Motivation report.

Page 281 is the start of the section discussing evidence revealed using luminol.
http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf
 
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