Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[jjenny]

Good question, unless a staging did occur by him or the others to make it seem random, the work of a complete stranger.

If he had time to be staging things, I presume the first thing he would have done is to flash the toilet. He left a lot of evidence at that crime scene (which is how he got caught) so I don't see him staging anything at all.

 

[SMK]

Yea, exactly. Why would Rudy be staging break ins? If MK let him in, why would he break an window? He has no reason whatsoever to stage a break in as far as I can tell.

Well, certainly, if he tried to put the moves on her, and/or rob her, and it turned violent---he might VERY well want to make it look like the work of a stranger, to give him time to flee to Germany, which he did.

 

[jjenny]

Well, certainly, if he tried to put the moves on her, and/or rob her, and it turned violent---he might VERY well want to make it look like the work of a stranger, to give him time to flee to Germany, which he did.

He was a stranger. So why would he be tying to make it look like the work of stranger?

 

[SMK]

He was a stranger. So why would he be tying to make it look like the work of stranger?

HUH????:waitasec::waitasec:He was known to the guys downstairs, he was seen at Le Chic--he was not a total stranger. He was well known in Perugia, to the police, to the drug and college crowd to the cottage---from the Motivation report p. 42:
The house at via della Pergola 7 was thus, for Rudy Guede, a friendly house, and so it must have appeared to him: it was inhabited by friends and girls with whom he could socialise, and in one of whom he was actually interested; in that house he could find easy hospitality, as shown by the fact that on one Sunday in the middle of October he went there to watch the Formula 1 races, and in that house he could spend a lot of time having fun (as shown by the episode recalled earlier in which, returning from a round of the pubs at around two in the morning, he went to the house and spent all night sleeping on the toilet), received by friends as a friend. Motivation, 42.

 

[otto]

If she connected him with the boys downstairs, within the University atmosphere, she would not have seen him as a stranger. She might have even thought he himself went to college, if she had seen him downstairs, or if he mentioned the names of the boys she knew, saying, "I wanted to see ________but they aren't home, can I quickly use the bathroom?"

I think we want to paint all students with the american sense of "college student life" or "university atmosphere". I think that's a mistake. The american attitude towards "university atmosphere" seems to be about party, drink, more party, freedom from parents and rules, etcetera. Meredith was an Erasmus student who was raised in an environment with lax drinking laws. Studying in Italy was not an opportunity to "go wild without parents" or think that everyone she met was now a new best friend. Europe was home for her, not some far away place where relaxed alcohol and drugs laws were different from home.

Besides ... Perugia is small ... walking distance between home and club, etc. If someone needed to use the bathroom, they could be at home in minutes ... no need for Meredith to let Rudy in to use the bathroom ... no reason for her to even open the door at night when she was alone.

 

[jjenny]

He might have not been a complete stranger, but he didn't live in the apartment. And there is nothing to suggest Rudy was staging anything. He left a lot of evidence, he didn't even flash the toilet. If he were trying to clean up a crime scene, it doesn't make any sense for him to be breaking a window if he came through the door.

 

[otto]

HUH????:waitasec::waitasec:He was known to the guys downstairs, he was seen at Le Chic--he was not a total stranger. He was well known in Perugia, to the police, to the drug and college crowd to the cottage---from the Motivation report p. 42:
The house at via della Pergola 7 was thus, for Rudy Guede, a friendly house, and so it must have appeared to him: it was inhabited by friends and girls with whom he could socialise, and in one of whom he was actually interested; in that house he could find easy hospitality, as shown by the fact that on one Sunday in the middle of October he went there to watch the Formula 1 races, and in that house he could spend a lot of time having fun (as shown by the episode recalled earlier in which, returning from a round of the pubs at around two in the morning, he went to the house and spent all night sleeping on the toilet), received by friends as a friend. Motivation, 42.

That suggests that he was friends with the guys downstairs, not that Meredith would open the door to him late at night when she was alone, and then leave him to do as he pleased while she went to her room to study.

As Jenny points out, if he was staging the scene, he would have flushed. Furthermore, evidence demonstrates that his footprints go from the bedroom straight out the front door ... no stopping to lock the bedroom door, or to break a window.

 

[Nova]

I've yet to hear of a case where shock led an innocent person into staging a crime scene. By all accounts, AK is a person with normal mental capabilities, and MK wasn't someone she was very close to-just a roommate with whom she supposedly didn't even get along all that well. I fail to see why AK would have gone into shock all of the sudden and started altering the crime scene if she simply discovered the body but had nothing to do with the murder.

Well put. And I think we can take it a step further and say that if AK's only involvement were a cover-up, she would have confessed to that under the stress of interrogation rather than going with the Lumumba story.

 

[SMK]

That suggests that he was friends with the guys downstairs, not that Meredith would open the door to him late at night when she was alone, and then leave him to do as he pleased while she went to her room to study.

As Jenny points out, if he was staging the scene, he would have flushed. Furthermore, evidence demonstrates that his footprints go from the bedroom straight out the front door ... no stopping to lock the bedroom door, or to break a window.

Okie.

 

[SMK]

I think we want to paint all students with the american sense of "college student life" or "university atmosphere". I think that's a mistake. The american attitude towards "university atmosphere" seems to be about party, drink, more party, freedom from parents and rules, etcetera. Meredith was an Erasmus student who was raised in an environment with lax drinking laws. Studying in Italy was not an opportunity to "go wild without parents" or think that everyone she met was now a new best friend. Europe was home for her, not some far away place where relaxed alcohol and drugs laws were different from home.

Besides ... Perugia is small ... walking distance between home and club, etc. If someone needed to use the bathroom, they could be at home in minutes ... no need for Meredith to let Rudy in to use the bathroom ... no reason for her to even open the door at night when she was alone.

Okie.

 

[SMK]

Well put. And I think we can take it a step further and say that if AK's only involvement were a cover-up, she would have confessed to that under the stress of interrogation rather than going with the Lumumba story.

Okie.

 

[Nova]

That is not necessarily true. For instance, someone who hasn't actually killed anyone can be charged with murder, such as gateway driver in a bank robbery, etc.

That's called "felony murder" and requires participation in an underlying felony (such as a robbery) before the murder takes place. Merely cleaning up afterward doesn't fit the definition, at least not in the U.S.

I'm not sure about Italian law, but I doubt Mignini would have worked so hard to paint AK as the "mastermind" of the murder if he could have gotten the same sentence from merely accusing her of the cover-up.

(That being said, as I say in my other post, I agree with you that I've never heard of somebody covering up a crime simply due to shock. Shock tends to interfere with the facilities required in a cover-up, not enhance them.)

 

[Nova]

Well if she opened the door to him why is the window broken? People who believe AK is innocent argue Rudy broke through the window, so if MK opened the door to him, why is the window broken?

Good question. I don't know. I have wondered whether RG could have staged a break-in. Whether he would feel a need to do so depends on how frequent a guest he was downstairs.

(Yes, it is odd that he would stage a break-in but leave his own excrement in the toilet, but nobody said he is a criminal mastermind.)

This isn't my favorite theory. My point was merely that the insistence that MK would NEVER open a door to RG ignores the fact that he was a friend of her boyfriend.

 

[Nova]

Meredith was tired from the night before, and told friends that she wanted an early night to do some studying. She had borrowed a text book for an exam and had to return it the following morning at 10 AM ... so she needed her time to study and rest. I find it highly unlikely that she would blow that off and invite Rudy in for a visit ... and that's also what the courts concluded. Furthermore, she was alone in the cottage. It was late, dark and she wasn't expecting anyone. The only way that Rudy would have entered the front door with Meredith home alone is if she opened the door, he force his way in and attacked her at the front door. There is no evidence that the attack started at the front door ... so again ... it's unlikely that Meredith invited Rudy to visit.

But she might have let him in to use the bathroom or briefly to answer a question concerning their mutual friends.

I agree it's unlikely she staged a tea party, but that's not the only reason one opens a door.

 

[SMK]

My point was merely that the insistence that MK would NEVER open a door to RG ignores the fact that he was a friend of her boyfriend.(Nova)-
Yes, I would think this would make some significant difference.

 

[Nova]

I doubt it. Amanda may be the sort of person that arrives home to find the front door wide open, and then leave the door open and take a shower, but Europe was not a big strange place for Meredith. She would have had enough common sense to know that it was unwise to open the door to an unknown person at night when she was alone.

Also, as Jenny points out ... Rudy had no reason to stage a break in. If he entered through the front door, why the broken window. The only person that had a reason to stage a break in is Amanda.

But RG wasn't unknown to MK. He was a friend of her boyfriend's, he and MK may have met at a party. We simply don't know whether she would have trusted him or not.

And while RG had less reason to stage a break-in than a resident of the apartment, what matters is what he may have thought he needed to do to distance himself from the crime.

In both instances, we are dealing with subjective impressions we can't know for sure (because MK is dead and RG has reason to lie).

 

[SMK]

Otto---Why do you leap to the idea that RG had to attack MK at the door? It is very reasonable to picture him knocking, and she opening the door, recognizing him as part of the downstairs association, and as they were all gone for the weekend, thinking it was Ok for him to use the restroom briefly. She may have then been surprised when he would not leave, and things escalated from there. I read of a case where a very studious girl opened the door to her neighbor, whom she had only known for a day or 2, as she had just moved in. He raped and killed her.

 

[Nova]

Yea, exactly. Why would Rudy be staging break ins? If MK let him in, why would he break an window? He has no reason whatsoever to stage a break in as far as I can tell.

While he may not be Lex Luthor, let's suppose RG has seen enough TV shows to assume a perp always leaves traces of himself behind. If so, he needed to make it look like some unknown person was there in addition to himself, someone on whom the crime could be blamed.

After all, isn't that exactly what RG did in his first statement?

 

[SMK]

While he may not be Lex Luthor, let's suppose RG has seen enough TV shows to assume a perp always leaves traces of himself behind. If so, he needed to make it look like some unknown person was there in addition to himself, someone on whom the crime could be blamed.

After all, isn't that exactly what RG did in his first statement?

Well spoken, bravo.

 

[Nova]

That suggests that he was friends with the guys downstairs, not that Meredith would open the door to him late at night when she was alone, and then leave him to do as he pleased while she went to her room to study.

As Jenny points out, if he was staging the scene, he would have flushed. Furthermore, evidence demonstrates that his footprints go from the bedroom straight out the front door ... no stopping to lock the bedroom door, or to break a window.

We both have daughters, otto, and we'd both like to believe they wouldn't be so foolish as to open their doors to casual acquaintances. But we also know that college-age kids do so all the time, which is one of the reasons why rape rates are so high on college campuses. Perhaps things are different in Europe, but I have trouble believing people in late adolescence are that much different in Western cultures on the two continents.

As for the footprints, I know you are accurately summarizing what has been reported. My problem is that so much of the investigation appears to have been done by the Keystone Kops, I don't know what to believe of what we are told.