Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[Nova]

I'm with you on this. When Amanda lied about Patrick being a murderer and the police beating statements out of her, there were consequences. Many people objected, giving the impression that it's quite all right in their eyes for women to go around telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives and livlihoods. In a society without morals, perhaps it's quite acceptable to destroy people with whopper lives, but apparently it's not acceptable in Italy. We have seen outrage because Amanda is held to the morals in Italy, where she has damaged lives. Too bad for Amanda. It is reasonable to have consequences for telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives. Today we have Frank, and the court of Florence seems to think that Frank told a whopper of a lie about the prosecutor. There are again consequences. What do we see? More outrage. Eventually everyone will understand that whopper lies told in Italy about Italian public officials will have consequences. As long as Frank lives in Italy and tells whopper lies about public officials, he alone will suffer the consequences - even if the lies are published in Sweden.

Being falsely convicted of murder for telling a lie under pressure isn't morality or justice, otto, quite the opposite.

And Mignini? Allusonz gave us a list of more than a dozen lies he has told--not counting those told with regard to his own trial and conviction.

When does the outrage kick in over his lies? My guess is never, at least not among those of you who seem to think Amanda Knox is the first person on the planet to ever tell a lie under the intense pressure of tag-team interrogation.

Because it isn't lying that some people really care about, it's just statements that don't support their points of view.

 

[otto]

I will admit, Otto; I do agree that there is a cultural attitude which is lax about lying. For example I have a female relative who has done serious lying (about paternity, and other things) and I am seen as an idiot for taking it seriously and condemning her. To a certain extent, I agree with you. But there are mitigating factors, and I hate to say this , but Mignini himself lies like a horse. We know Amanda immediately recanted, and we know Frank is as honest as the day is long. Right?

Have you read Dempsey's book? She quotes Frank often in Parts 2 & 3. Page 235-238 cover a meeting between Amanda and Mignini when Amanda has a lawyer and she is asked to answer questions and clarify. When the prosecutor asks her why in her third statement (given the following day) she includes the images and the scream, her lawyer interrupts and says that she was confused.

I see prosecutors as people that have a job to do. They are in contact with police from the moment a crime occurs through to the reading of the verdict. I see him as taking the information he has and trying to solve a crime. I understand that one of the first red flags was the staged break in. From there, it was a domino situation. I don't know of the prosecutors lying in the trial, but I do think they were selective in presenting evidence that supported the theory of the crime.

As for all the lawsuits related to the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher, there have been so many already, and we probably haven't seen the last of it. We also that the lawsuits about the Lifetime movie where it is Raffaele that objects to the spread of certain information. This week we had the prosecutor object to the spread of certain information. Meredith's family is suing Raffaele's family for spreading the crime scene photos. They're all doing it - suing each other, so I wouldn't go overboard because the prosecutor is doing the same thing.

 

[Nova]

Interesting that you recognize that Sweden has laws different from the US and Italy, and it's viewed as a good thing for Frank, but the laws in Italy are not recognized as a good thing for Meredith Kercher.

Frankly, I think you would be just as appalled at Italian jurisprudence if it weren't giving you the results you want in this case. (To be clear, I understand you want those results because you believe them to be just.)

 

[SMK]

I haven't said that a short story is a blueprint for crime, nor have I said that everyone that writes rape trash goes on to commit murder. What I said is that Amanda is a dull, uninteresting person. Further discussion led to me elaborating on my opinion of her character, and describing her as producing violent writings, amongst other undesirable traits such as being a liar of the worst kind and et cetera.

So ... did Amanda grow up in a home with parents that installed 1000 TV channels, of which hundreds are devoted to violence? Any child would be messed up growing up in a broken home with that kind of entertainment ... don't you think, or am I wrong?

I had actually had this thought 2 years ago. But if this were the case, Amanda would be a kind of victim, would she not?

 

[otto]

The topic of Amanda's short stories was, i think, the first conversation I had with you guys on this thread. I brought up back then, but it seems to be forgotten easily, that the second short story was only speculated to be written by Amanda. Because the story was written by someone at Capanne prison, and because the person's name was Marie (and Amanda's middle name is Marie) it was speculated by an Italian paper that it was Knox. I think also because the last name of the author is Pace (which means "peace") it was also suspected to be an alias. Pace is a common Italian last name. But it's important to note that this stems from one newspaper guessing this was Knox.

The prison short story was also published online, so anyone that read Amanda's Baby Brother story had no difficulty recognizing the convoluted writing style.

 

[otto]

The offending post is cited in the blog. Mignini's letter is also there. What do you think is justifiable about Mignini's suit against Frank? He wrote that Mignini was surprised to find out Curatolo was a drug dealer. Big whoop.

Do you have a link to the official lawsuit? I looked on the linked page, but couldn't find it. What I saw on that blog was exactly what dgfred described.

 

[SMK]

Have you read Dempsey's book? She quotes Frank often in Parts 2 & 3. Page 235-238 cover a meeting between Amanda and Mignini when Amanda has a lawyer and she is asked to answer questions and clarify. When the prosecutor asks her why in her second statement (given at 5:45 AM) she includes the images and the scream, her lawyer interrupts and says that she was confused.

I see prosecutors as people that have a job to do. They are in contact with police from the moment a crime occurs through to the reading of the verdict. I see him as taking the information he has and trying to solve a crime. I understand that one of the first red flags was the staged break in. From there, it was a domino situation. I don't know of the prosecutors lying in the trial, but I do think they were selective in presenting evidence that supported the theory of the crime.

As for all the lawsuits related to the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher, there have been so many already, and we probably haven't seen the last of it. We also that the lawsuits about the Lifetime movie where it is Raffaele that objects to the spread of certain information. This week we had the prosecutor object to the spread of certain information. Meredith's family is suing Raffaele's family for spreading the crime scene photos. They're all doing it - suing each other, so I wouldn't go overboard because the prosecutor is doing the same thing.

I understand about the lawsuits being legion in this case; and that Mignini's might possibly be a defensive and not an offensive move. I also understand that Mignini had a job to do, and got "caught up", as it were. I will not attribute evil motives to him. I think , though, that the theory wound up being full of holes. Mignini is not a wholly unsympathetic character, IMO, and I was surprised at how vulnerable and nervous he appeared on CNN. I also think he is quite handsome. I just think these 2 young people should not be ruined on so little evidence. No Mignini bashing on my part. :innocent: ( altho he really does lie like a horse :razz: )

 

[Nova]

Obviously, Nova and I have had different experiences regarding taking/teaching classes. I agree Knox's writing is absolutely NOT on the honors' level--- a sign of the slipping standards of colleges!

Do you mean different from each other or that we both have different experiences from otto?

Because I'm not defending the quality of Knox' writing; I just don't find the subject matter unusual or meaningful.

As I understand it, Knox graduated from Seattle Prep with honors. The honors were probably in a variety of subjects, not necessarily creative writing. In fact, probably not creative writing; I don't think that's a subject that's usually offered at the honors level.

But, yeah, the past decades have seen a rash of grade inflation, at least in the U.S. My college freshmen and women all arrived with A+ averages. You can't imagine the tears when they realized how hard they would have to work to get a B. (To their credit, almost all dried their eyes and got down to work.)

 

[Nova]

You are right, Nova. It is likely a combination of these female students being actually quite vulnerable, while at the same time having this vulnerability heightened considerably by the Dworkin ideology. In the end, obsession with rape is a common ailment on college campuses in the U.S. I am stunned that Otto has not encountered this, as I thought it was a global phenomenem.

I glad you understood I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just wanted to point out the real problem in addition to the Dworkin-style hysteria. As I'm sure you know, colleges have been very remiss is publicizing the extent of the problem on their campuses.

 

[otto]

"Crime writing" is a form of journalism.

That he also writes fiction merely puts him in the good company of writers such as Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer.

BTW, all of the above wrote about violence and killing. To my knowledge, none is known to have ever committed a murder.

Are you comparing rape trash to John Steinbeck et al? That's a discussion where I have nothing to contribute.

Crime novels are meant to be read and thrown in the trash. They are poorly written and banged out, except the final chapter, before the verdict is read. Dempsey contradicts herself in her book, as do most crime novelists. I suspect that this is because she is banging out a crime novel rather than reporting facts and news. I prefer to think of journalism as reporting facts in the news.

 

[SMK]

Do you mean different from each other or that we both have different experiences from otto?

Because I'm not defending the quality of Knox' writing; I just don't find the subject matter unusual or meaningful.

As I understand it, Knox graduated from Seattle Prep with honors. The honors were probably in a variety of subjects, not necessarily creative writing. In fact, probably not creative writing; I don't think that's a subject that's usually offered at the honors level.

But, yeah, the past decades have seen a rash of grade inflation, at least in the U.S. My college freshmen and women all arrived with A+ averages. You can't imagine the tears when they realized how hard they would have to work to get a B. (To their credit, almost all dried their eyes and got down to work.)

First, you were a very good professor indeed not to dole out As. :clap::clap:
Second, I meant that you and I - as opposed to Otto - had seen much student writing about sexual and other kinds of violence. I agree that Knox may have been stronger in subjects besides creative writing.

 

[otto]

Being falsely convicted of murder for telling a lie under pressure isn't morality or justice, otto, quite the opposite.

And Mignini? Allusonz gave us a list of more than a dozen lies he has told--not counting those told with regard to his own trial and conviction.

When does the outrage kick in over his lies? My guess is never, at least not among those of you who seem to think Amanda Knox is the first person on the planet to ever tell a lie under the intense pressure of tag-team interrogation.

Because it isn't lying that some people really care about, it's just statements that don't support their points of view.

I must have missed the list from Allusonz. If it was a copy of an opinion from someone that posts on some other forum, I probably skipped it. If I wanted to debate with someone on another forum, I'd be there, not here. If it was an opinion from Allusonz, I would be very interested in a link.

 

[Nova]

I will admit, Otto; I do agree that there is a cultural attitude which is lax about lying. For example I have a female relative who has done serious lying (about paternity, and other things) and I am seen as an idiot for taking it seriously and condemning her. To a certain extent, I agree with you. But there are mitigating factors, and I hate to say this , but Mignini himself lies like a horse. We know Amanda immediately recanted, and we know Frank is as honest as the day is long. Right?

I think human beings have always lied. That's not to say basic honesty isn't a noble goal, and one I try to reach myself (allowing for the "beneficial" lies told out of kindness: if you're already at the party, there's no point in telling a woman her dress makes her look fat).

I don't believe there is a poster here who has never lied. But lies come out of contexts and those contexts should be considered if we are going to judge to severity of a lie.

It never ceases to astonish me that posters hold a 20-year-old in a foreign country under the pressure of tag-team interrogation to a higher standard of honesty than prosecutors--who quite obviously decided in advance to tell the lies they told.

 

[Nova]

The topic of Amanda's short stories was, i think, the first conversation I had with you guys on this thread. I brought up back then, but it seems to be forgotten easily, that the second short story was only speculated to be written by Amanda. Because the story was written by someone at Capanne prison, and because the person's name was Marie (and Amanda's middle name is Marie) it was speculated by an Italian paper that it was Knox. I think also because the last name of the author is Pace (which means "peace") it was also suspected to be an alias. Pace is a common Italian last name. But it's important to note that this stems from one newspaper guessing this was Knox.

I haven't forgotten, Malkmus. I just got tired of repeating the qualification.

Maybe all the posters who attribute this story to AK are LYING! That's it! Let's call them all LIARS and talk about their dead souls. (The foregoing is sarcasm. I don't actually call anyone a liar without indisputable evidence.)

 

[SMK]

I think human beings have always lied. That's not to say basic honesty isn't a noble goal, and one I try to reach myself (allowing for the "beneficial" lies told out of kindness: if you're already at the party, there's no point in telling a woman her dress makes her look fat).

I don't believe there is a poster here who has never lied. But lies come out of contexts and those contexts should be considered if we are going to judge to severity of a lie.

It never ceases to astonish me that posters hold a 20-year-old in a foreign country under the pressure of tag-team interrogation to a higher standard of honesty than prosecutors--who quite obviously decided in advance to tell the lies they told.

Yes, there is some hypocrisy there, isn't there? Mignini's lies are "part of his work" (albeit the part which got him convicted on a felony) and little Amanda's are the result of her evil soul. :maddening:
ETA: The only sort of lies that bother me - as we indeed all tell white lies - are the destructive ones, the big ones, the constant ones, the devious ones intended to oppress or rob others.

 

[otto]

I had actually had this thought 2 years ago. But if this were the case, Amanda would be a kind of victim, would she not?

I actually don't adhere to the idea that a sad childhood justifies or excuses violence or bad behavior in adults.

 

[Nova]

Nova, I've discovered the answer to something we debated several weeks ago. The question was whether Rudy spoke English. I finally decided to finish Dempsey's book, and she discusses Rudy having a working knowledge of English - although he used phonetic spelling.

Thank you very much, otto. I've since heard some brief recordings of RG from Halloween. I can't tell whether his exaggerated pronunciation is a reflection of his knowledge of English or just his fooling around.

So I'm not sure what a "working knowledge" is. I have a working knowledge of Spanish in some subjects (often not very useful ones: I can discuss Cervantes, Lope and Calderon), but I don't know if I could negotiate a murder conspiracy with strangers... in a hurry... while stoned.

 

[SMK]

I agree with this writer about the meaning of Knox's creative ramblings:

The only new light that "Baby Brother" casts on the murder suspect is that she wasn't a very good short-story writer. She emphasizes characters' furrowed brows and facial creases and is overly fond of the word "sand" ("His husky voice sounded like it was crawling out of a bucket of sand"; "His skin reminded him of sand, and how sand was all stretched and washed out on a cold beach"; a character named Sandra has "sandy blond hair"). When Edgar is about to confront Kyle, we get this rather overbaked sentence: "His mouth was drawn tight and creased at the edges, and for a second Edgar thought he was going to say something, but he felt the tightness of his brow ease and he swallowed a large, slippery gulp of the aching, burning rage that pulsated in his forehead, chest, and throat." These are unmistakably the contorted metaphors and maudlin exaggerations concocted by someone who doesn't know what she's talking about, who's making it up whole cloth.http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=439135

 

[SMK]

I actually don't adhere to the idea that a sad childhood justifies or excuses violence or bad behavior in adults.

But we are not talking of a childhood - in your supposition - which was merely "sad". We are speaking of something which would have destroyed brain chemistry and constituted malignant neglect. And yes, objectively, this would make her a victim. A violent one, but a victim.

 

[otto]

I understand about the lawsuits being legion in this case; and that Mignini's might possibly be a defensive and not an offensive move. I also understand that Mignini had a job to do, and got "caught up", as it were. I will not attribute evil motives to him. I think , though, that the theory wound up being full of holes. Mignini is not a wholly unsympathetic character, IMO, and I was surprised at how vulnerable and nervous he appeared on CNN. I also think he is quite handsome. I just think these 2 young people should not be ruined on so little evidence. No Mignini bashing on my part. :innocent: ( altho he really does lie like a horse :razz: )

The theory about the broken window being staged may well be full of holes. It doesn't appear to be full of holes to me. Mignini's lawsuit, behind the long trail of criss crossing lawsuits, is par for the course and I see no reason for everyone to be so hostile because of it. Frank is now a player in the lawsuits, as is Lifetime Movies, Joe Tacopina, Dr Sollecito, Curt Knox, Edda Mellas, Mignini, Meredith's family, Amanda, Patrick, Raffaele, Rudy, Perugia police ... did I miss anyone?