Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[wasnt_me]

What ARE you talking about? If a key had been left in the front door, then RG could have let himself out without confronting MK.

I don't doubt that somebody somewhere suggested a key was in the door, but it isn't central to any theory of the case. So why go on and on about it?

Nobody EVER, except him, said there was an extra key. I thought it was quite simple to understand it when SMK told the theory. She said it was MK's key, and even if she didn't, isn't that something very easy to assume? MK's keys are the missing keys. The keys to the downstairs apartment are also missing, probably because RG might have gotten them off the kitchen counter, or somewhere like herpurse, and tried those keys in the door as well as Mk's until one of the keys worked to let him out.

I don't believe the needed the keys to get out theory, but it might make sense if MK's door was open and he didn't want to risk her seeing him. If it was dark in the livingroom, he might have tried to creep to the door and slip out, but I'm supposing creeping to RF's room might have been trickery to do without MK seeing or hearing him. He could have attempted it, though, and she saw him. then he had to attack.

 

[wasnt_me]

Right, they did not do her any favors, but she herself told the truth: She said "the only time Rudy Guede, Raffaele Sollecito, and myself were in a room together is in court. He knows we were not there. "

I really hope that after seeing RG and after hearing Rs and AK, the jury starts to see where the earnest words are.

 

[wasnt_me]

Your response completely ignores what I posted and reverts to a song you've been singing for years. Surely you're tired of it by now!

AK didn't bring PL into the investigation originally, ILE did. AK merely caved to pressure and agreed to a statement pushed on her by police. AK had no way of knowing there was no other evidence against PL.

AK's mother also had no way of knowing there was no other evidence against PL. Why would she call police?

If some people would set aside their need to demonize the Knox family and try to look at things based on the little people knew in the confusing first weeks after the murder, some of this would be much clearer.

You need to save this post, so you can just copy and paste it as the need arises.

 

[wasnt_me]

:rocker:

Ok, if you are working under the assumption that Amanda was involved in the murder, that could be construed as a valid criticism if you ignore LE's role in holding PL for two weeks on an extremely weak identification. Forgetting the fact he had at least two (I think it ended up being many more in the end) people vouch for his alibi for the time in question, and there was not a single piece of evidence that tied him to the murder scene. Forgetting the fact you are equating two weeks with over 3 and 1/2 years, then yes they are the exact same thing.

Since you believe AK is guilty what would you have done to free PL if you were her mother? Would you have known she was telling the truth that PL was not involved, since she is always lying? So, you would have come forward knowing (how exactly would you know at that point) she lied about PL's involvement to cover up for someone else?

However, in the case of Ms. Mellas (if she believed her daughter was involved in the murder or not), how did she know for certain PL was not involved ? RG knows for sure if AK and RS were involved or not, and he is either lying or not. Ms. Mellas if her daughter was involved or not had no idea if PL was involved or not at the time. She certainly was not as informed as Perugia LE. So that accusation is utterly unfounded and at best disingenuous.

yeah, What you just said!

:twocents:

 

[wasnt_me]

right, and it is actually the door being as it is that is central. Most doors you can let yourself out from the inside, but not in from the outside. This locked both ways. I had a door like that in California; the lock was up above the doorknob and needed a key to get out and to lock it. I think this was pretty much established by all in the cottage, so do not know why Otto is pondering it. It may indeed have made all the difference in this case.

My dad put a deadbolt on my house like this. He told me not to keep the key in the side that was in the house, or the door is rendered uselss. I asked him what he meant, and he said burglars might get in the window, but they ain't carrying nothing out the door. Of course the door can be kicked in (which you'll remember happened to my renter,) but that deadbolt remained locked until a key was put into one of its two sides.

 

[wasnt_me]

Nor does Rudy Guede's. :razz:

Let's not talk about RG's inconvenient truths.....

I'll tell you what's true about RG's story:

1. he arrived early and cased the house, and around 830pm or so, gained access to the house.
2. He took a dump and stole food.
3. He had some kind of sexual contact with MK.
4. He left Mk dying on the floor.
5. He went to the disco afterward.

 

[mdana]

"Therefore, she stayed with Raffaele, with whom she smoked some marijuana. They had dinner together, but quite late, perhaps 23:00 pm. After dinner, she noticed a bit of blood on Raffaele’s hand and had the impression that ‚it had to do with blood coming from the fish‛ that they had cooked. Raffaele, after having eaten, had washed the dishes, but a break in the pipes had occurred under the sink. And water was leaking, with flooding on the floor. Since they didn’t have a mop, they decided that they would do the cleaning the next day with a mop that she could get from her house." (p. 67)

"They ate dinner, ‚but very late‛ (page 77). They ate fish and salad. Then, while Raffaele was washing the dishes, from the sink, a leak was noticed: ‚water was leaking below and he looked at it; he turned off the water and then looked below the sink, and this pipe had become loose, so the water that was coming from the faucet was leaking out.‛" (p. 69)

"In the course of her witness examination she indicated that they had dinner around 21:30 pm to 22:00 pm; then she put the time further out, at about 23:00 pm. But this claim is contradicted by the declarations made by Francesco Sollecito. He, as noted, stated that he spoke with his son on the phone at 20:42 pm (phone records corroborate his statement), who told him "he was with Amanda" (p. 16, hearing of June 19, 2009). Indeed, later on, around midnight of that "November 1", knowing that he was with this girl, he limited himself to just sending him a text message (p. 19, hearing cited above). Francesco Sollecito also explained that, during the 8:42 pm call, his son mentioned "that while he was washing dishes he realised he had a water spill" (p. 45)." This fact, which was also mentioned by Amanda Knox (who links it to the need to fetch the mop to dry up the floor), is relevant because it allows us to determine the time of dinner as being around 8:30 pm and before the call at 8:42 pm, in which Raffaele tells his father that while washing the dishes he had a leak from the sink. (p. 78)

So Jovana Popovic, after finishing her lesson at the Tre Archi, which ended at 8:20 pm, returned on foot to the home of Raffaele, to tell him that she no longer needed to be accompanied to the station. It took her about twenty minutes to walk the distance, so she arrived at around 8:40 pm, again finding Amanda, who opened the door and let her know that Raffaele was in the bathroom. (p. 64)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

...I knew there was reason I wasn't tied down to the dinner being done before 8:40!!!

Does anyone else find it strange that in the MOT Massei bends over backwards to put the dinner before 8:40? He stresses all the information to lead the reader to the conclusion that dinner was definitely eaten around 8:30. He massages all testimony to accentuate that inference, but he neglects or disregards anything that might cast doubt on this conclusion.

So at approximately the same time, you have an eyewitness at the house and you have someone on a cellphone and whose testimony does Massei emphasize? Why of course the person who has no idea what is actually happening at the house at the moment. There is no reference to Ms. Popovic's recollection of if the couple was in the middle of dinner, had started to have dinner, had finished dinner, or if the sink was leaking.

This passage is a microcosm of the entire report. The Quintavalle and Curatolo puff pieces highlight the lengths Massei will go to playup the most inconsequential or unreliable testimony in order to create the illusion of significance and veracity. When all you are left with is an empty top hat.

The key to reading the report in which they throw in everything but the kitchen sink (or yeah they threw that it in too) is to disregard the constant misdirection of the overwhelming "evidence" and look for what is left out for that is the crux of The Case That Wasn't There.

 

[wasnt_me]

What's central to the theory is that RG was trapped inside a locked door and had to get a key from MK.

I see no persuasive value in adding an extra complication about a missing fifth key. If Hendry did so, I don't remember it, but it must be because he was told such a key was usually in the door.

The 5th key was in the landlords's pocket while he was at his house, chilling, not knowing that he wasn't about to get rent again for a very long time, and his cute little house would become the house of horrors, and his sweet little tenants' lives would be ended or forever changed.

The ONLY key to get out of the house at the time of RG's arrival was in MK's possession, because she HAD JUST USED IT to lock the door back.

 

[wasnt_me]

See, there's the problem: too much presuming.

Climbing down is often more difficult than climbing up, especially in the dark. Moreover, since the cottage was now occupied, he didn't dare turn on a light.

It's funny because this reminded me of my puppies. They would jump up on the bed with ease, but look over the edge and REFUSE to jump down. One actually did hurt herself when she finally attempted it. But yes, they could leap up on the bed, but were very wary about getting down. she didn't hurt herself badly, just went flat and "splat!" and looked stunned. But for the longest time, before they became confident about going down, I'd have to pick them up and put them on the floor.

 

[mdana]

And where have YOU been oldsteve? Good to "see" you!

:great:

The jailhouse informants had come forward way back during RG's appeal. In the last phases, but no one would hear them out. I happen to believe RG told them something, and it could have been that story, because I'm sure RG would blame his mother rather than himself.

What's strange and needs to come out is that RG said not only to these prisoners that Ak and RS were not there, but he also said it in his skype call, and he couldn't even identify RS in the beginning phases after his arrest. (I think allusonz told us that earlier in this thread).

As far as the mob brother, he never ever should have been let out of his cage.

I was always under the impression this testimony was not entered to show the other brother did it per se, but to show the lack of effort on the part of the investigative team to follow any leads other than AK and RS. Remember RG was not on the radar at all until the forensics evidence pointed towards him. In many cases, there are numerous leads or persons of interest, until the eventual suspect is incarcerated, but in this one nothing that was not seen through the prism of AK and RS being guilty was ever examined.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, of course. Robbery can turn into unplanned sexual assault if a female is home. I know this for a fact.

Truthfully, almost any situation can because the sex isn't about "sex," it's about power, control and submission. Exerting power over someone, and if MK was a fighter like her loved ones said, RG probably had to "show her."

 

[wasnt_me]

The media can create an unfair burden for any defense team, hence the reason trials are moved to new locales. I think you have to have your head in the sand to believe the Italian media, spoonfed distortions and outright lies by the prosecution, didn't convict these two before the first trial. Now, one might not believe it any effect on the jury, but I don't share that belief.

To the overall thrust of your deflection, my biggest question is ad hom. or a strawman? Although, a nice mixture in my view, I am going with sm.

Where did I state the guilters had anything to do with what the media does or does not do? The criticism was the hypocrisy of the guilters trumpeting any misleading report or article that supported their bias or side in the past. Now if their position is attacked or weakened and the report or article is favorable to or even just balanced, they cry foul. One cannot profess to be seeking the truth and distort or withold certain information. Nor can one lustily cheer on distortions that present your side in positive fashion.

Mdana, where've you been all my life?:blowkiss:

Oh and some kisses, too, for SMK, Nova, Alli, Malk, miley, and all the rest on the island.

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't know that anybody told Hendry any such thing! I merely said that if Hendry says he has evidence of a fifth key, then he does. He has no reason to lie; his theory doesn't depend on a fifth key.

THIS IS YOUR CLAIM and you also claim never to have read Hendry. As far as I know, you invented the fifth key.

***

This gets so tiresome. Per the "lone wolf" theory, PL entered when the cottage was empty, then MK returned home. PL couldn't exit quickly and silently through the front door without a key. PL couldn't go back out a broken window in the dark without making noise.

PL had no way to avoid discovery. Nobody is claiming that he was literally, physically trapped inside a cottage with windows.

You mean, RG, though, but I get your point.

 

[wasnt_me]

No it is not. Have you ever climbed a wall? I have climbed numerous walls, and typically there is a point you have to jump up 1-2 feet to get to a window, landing, porch, balcony, roof, etc. When you come back down it may be virtually if not actually impossible to replicate it on the way down. If you are on a 5 inch ledge and you jump up to be 7 ft above that ledge, good luck landing on that ledge without smacking into the wall on the way down. Now you have to drop 10-15 feet down.

RG had to catch the window below him which was approx. 5 ft. below the window. Not sure how he does that in daylight let alone darkness. He has to drop the 11.5 feet.

I'm not expert, but it was 13 or 14 feet to the ground, if he hung down from the window ledge, at 6 feet tall, he'd have a 7 or 8 foot drop, right?

Anyways, I don't climb up or down walls, but I no longer think he could have exited through the window because I take your word for the information about climbing own, and because I believe his attempting to get back in FR's room might have alerted MK, and I think if he did go in there, she would have heard him stepping on glass and knocking into stuff in the dark.

 

[wasnt_me]

Are you familiar with the term coerced confession? If not, then you live in a world that is not conducive to reason

Okay, after this statement, I'm gonna ask you to marry me. Even if you're already married.

:great:

 

[wasnt_me]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Reading the whole statement, she sounds very confused to me, and to me it appears that she is saying she could be wrong and Lumamba should not be jailed on her word.

And, in this day and age, we know people give false confessions:
http://www.injusticebusters.com/04/False_confession2.shtml

This is one of the least damaging false confessions I've ever seen. I call it false, because clearly what she says happened with Lumamba did not happen.

If I was on the jury, the items that would have caused me to convict would have been the bra clasp, and the luminol footprints.

the jury wasn't even supposed to hear about PL, but did because the gov chose to run the civil suit in the same court room at the same time with the same jury as the criminal suit. The statement was supposed to be barred from her trial because it'd been obtained illegally. That should have been discovered on Nov 7th, and PL never should have been held based on an illegally obtained statement.

 

[wasnt_me]

How many pages were wasted on a mythical fifth key?

This is what happens when there is a failure to deliberate.

You'll see more wasted posts, cause I had to get my :twocents: in.

 

[wasnt_me]

About the sexual assault-

If I remember correctly, in the MOT it was considered attempted sexual assault. The coroner originally ruled sexual assault and then removed that finding. When Hellmann opened the trial the only thing he mentioned was the murder and not the attempted sexual assault. I thought a poster had previously stated the DNA found on MK's vaginal area was surface not semen or indictive of attempted sex. So that was what my previous post was about if it was unclear.

My question is does this sound correct and does anyone know if attempted sexual assault are part of the charges or have they been dropped?

They left it at sexual assault for RG, I believe, but not rape, because they couldn't "prove" rape. His cells were inside her, which led them to sexual assault. I guess RS got charged with that because of the bra clasp. I can't remember if AK got charged with it, just so she wouldn't be left out, I suppose. Strangely, they charged AK and RS with the robbery, I guessed based on Angel RG's statements. Otherwise, I don't see the proof they stole from MK. RG's bloody prints and or dna is in the bag, literally, but he's not charged with robbing MK.

You can't make this stuff up. What opposing person here actually believes AK and RS robbed Mk, but not RG? someone tell me if I got all these charges right.

 

[wasnt_me]

Not clear on this, to tell you the truth, as I do not like reading Massei report (once was enough). I do know that Guede's DNA showed sexual contact, whereas RS and AK left none. Thus, Guede's contention that sex was consensual, which is hard to believe.

Oh, but RG is a credible witness because he was at the murder scene, and so if he says the foreplay was conscentual-- and we have untested semen that we don't know is semen or his semen but is on the pillow that MK sleeps on, but shouldn't be tested because it could have been there, stinking up her pillow for a week and we know she was doing laundry but not her stinky sex stained pillow case--then he has no reason to lie about it being consentual.

(isn't that how the MOT report usually describes pros. witnesses?)

 

[mdana]

I'm not expert, but it was 13 or 14 feet to the ground, if he hung down from the window ledge, at 6 feet tall, he'd have a 7 or 8 foot drop, right?

Anyways, I don't climb up or down walls, but I no longer think he could have exited through the window because I take your word for the information about climbing own, and because I believe his attempting to get back in FR's room might have alerted MK, and I think if he did go in there, she would have heard him stepping on glass and knocking into stuff in the dark.

Depends on how much glass was on the window sill. I would hold onto the sill if that was an option and drop from the sill to cut the drop almost in half, but if there was glass I would have to jump off.

It also depends on how much light you have. It is much easier if you have light, if I had no light I would have to jump first instead of holding onto the sill. What you absolutely don't want to do is hold onto the ledge and slip and fall on your side, because that would be much worse than jumping from the same height.

The trick is to land on your feet and don't try to hold the drop but roll as quickly as you can onto the ground. That disperses the g-force on your calves and ankles, which creates problems if you try and stick your jump.

I used to climb buildings when I was kid (schools mostly). I used to jump off the bleachers when I was bored, and I could go rows higher than anyone else would try. I used to jump out of my window in my second story room to freak out my mom, because she couldn't figure out how I got out of my room.

In college, I would drop from the third story of our dorm for bets and after awhile people would come from all over the dorm to watch. The RA caught wind of it and made me quit. Which was a good thing, because my calves were started to get overstressed. It was probably just a matter of time before I broke something.

After college, the only thing I have done in terms of climbing buildings is to break into my own apartment, when I forgot the key. I climbed a tree recently to get a cat and got stuck coming down. It was only a 5 foot drop, but it was over a bunch of bushes, so it was hard to get enough swing to clear the bushes. I also forgot to roll, and I am getting old and fat.

I must sound like a nut:waitasec: