Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[SMK]

Any reason you didn't put all of that through the translator?

I would welcome anyone to put the first full paragraph through translate and see what was left out...

Also, and I don't have time right this moment to go into detail, but the excerpt also mentions the presence of several people's DNA on the clasp.

First is Otto's; second (red) is mine: Underlined was excluded in Otto's.

It is, therefore, a genetic profile derived from the mixture of unidentified biological substances whose major component is represented by DNA from the victim and the minor component is represented by DNA from more individuals (see autosomal STRs) that were male (see Y chromosome); a haplotype Y which corresponds to the Y haplotype of Raffaele Sollecito.

"It is, therefore, a genetic profile derived from biological mixture of unidentified substances (remember that no investigation was carried out targeted alFevidenziazione exfoliation of cells and then assumed the claim has no scientific basis), whose major component DNA is represented by the victim and the minor component is represented by DNA from multiple individuals (see autosomal STRs) were male (see Y chromosome). which corresponds to a haplotype Y Y all'aplotipo Raffaele Sollecito. "

 

[otto]

OK, but this haplotype could belong to numerous men, of which Sollecito is but one. Right? :waitasec: Oh, dear.........

I haven't read the report and have no clue what haplotype is, but in my limited understanding, I believe that the DNA on the bra clasp is confirmed to belong to Sollecito. The next question is whether there was contamination, and as we expected, contamination cannot be ruled out. I think that can be said of any lab. In this particular case, contamination has not been ruled in and it has not been ruled out, but the results indicate that the bra clasp DNA can be attributed to a mixture of Meredith (major contributor) and Sollecito (minor contributor).

We also have that crazy statement from him about cutting Meredith with the murder weapon while she was at his apartment. This is a very suspicious statement under the circumstances.

 

[SMK]

I did not put quotation marks around the translation that I posted and I excluded the bracketed remark that was not properly translated, which is not a complete sentence and which makes no sense. Is that a problem? Does it change the meaning?

Do you have any clue what this means: (remember that no investigation was carried out targeted alFevidenziazione exfoliation of cells and then assumed the claim has no scientific basis)? I don't. What is alFevidenziazione?

I would guess it means:
Recall that no investigation was carried out, which targeted exfoliation of cells. It was assumed that this had no scientific basis. still does NOT make any sense

 

[otto]

I would guess it means:
Recall that no investigation was carried out, which targeted exfoliation of cells. It was assumed that this had no scientific basis. still does NOT make any sense

The exact google translation is as follows:

"please note that no investigation was not performed alFevidenziazione targeted exfoliation of cells and then assumed the statement is lacking scientific evidence"

Google translate turns that bracketed remark into nonsense ... so it seemed like a good reason to exclude it, in addition to the fact that it was bracketed.

I have to say, it's bewildering that someone would prefer the google translate mumbo jumbo over the cleaned up version.

 

[SMK]

I'll try and be quick here as my time is limited, so I'm popping in and out.

Anyway, first, I do have a problem with you only providing partial translations and leaving parts out that are significant. It doesn't matter if you understand it or not. Second, I don't know why you would omit something for not understanding it when you don't understand the entire excerpt in general.
The part omitted refers to there being no skin cells found on the bra clasp as originally claimed by ILE, basically that the DNA of Raf was put there by him rubbing it. Here is an actual translation by Italian speaker Kompostino who is doing a full translation:

"The genetic profile thus derives from a mixture of unidentified biological substances (it will be recalled that no test was performed with a view toward revealing the presence of flaking cells, and so the claim is without scientific basis), whose larger component is represented by the DNA of the victim and whose smaller component is represented by DNA from several individuals (cf. autosomic STRs) of male sex (cf. Y chromosome), of which one of the Y aplotypes corresponds to the Y aplotype of Raffaele Sollecito"

Second, Y chromosomes are not DNA strands, are not like fingerprints and are not exclusive to one individual. It is helpful in narrowing down a group of people. Here is something to clarify:



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/interviews/foster.html

Thanks, this is all very, very clarifying. :seeya:

That's why we get at this number of one through a hundred or one in a hundred or one in a thousand. There is not enough variation in the Y chromosome to make it like a fingerprint.

 

[flourish]

We're waiting for the expert report to be reviewed in court on July 25. There are three days set aside to debate the validity of the report.

Thank you and nice to see you, otto

Hi, Flourish, good to see you back!:seeya: Sorry about my :razz: but that is my way of having fun with fred and otto. :laugh: I think the Casey Anthony case proves that a jury can get it wrong, and I hope it can be conceded that there is some logic to believing also that an Italian jury may have gotten it wrong.....The latest is that the 2 DNA pieces were rejected by the independent panel. Until July 25, this is all we really have to work with.

Thank you and nice to see you, too No need to explain yourself--I know you do love your smilies. As a preschool teacher, I'm quite familiar with the "fun" attitude behind a :razz: and a :laugh: but since I'm not your teacher I'll spare you the lecture :giggle: :blowkiss:

As expected by most not much came of the inmates testimony save for the fact one was charged with slander. This pretty much sums up the the experts report. <Respectfully snipped by flourish, for space>

Wow, that was a lot of information, thank you, Allusonz As otto pointed out, there wasn't a link, though...can you post it, please and thank you.
:seeya:

 

[SMK]

Otto, I think it's just basic forum etiquette that if you're going to post a translation of a paragraph written in a foreign language and you're not sure what it means, that you either post the entire section, or, if you're going to do your own editing, that you explain what you omitted and why. Then it won't raise any eyebrows. You asked if I had a problem with it, and I've explained why. I'm not telling you that you have to do anything, it's just a friendly request for next time.

Secondly, I did give credit to the author of the translation I posted, so I don't know why you're asking. I assume you missed it, because it's right there. I've also linked to that person's site where the translation is ongoing just a few days ago, and I'll do it again if you so like.

Your welcome to stick with the double negative that Google provided instead of an actual person fluent in Italian. But I wouldn't expect to be able to cling to that version much longer.

And as for part of the DNA on the clasp matching Sollecito, well, yes it's a match to him... and a few hundred thousand other Italians. There's also the problem of the other Y-haplotype found on there too which increases that number even more...

There is the crux of the whole thing. I would say the bra clasp DNA is dead on arrival now.

 

[wasnt_me]

I was reading a report on IIP about the shoe prints. apparently, RG's left shoe print is visible in the room and his right shoe print is visible in the hallway. The article discussed how his left shoe print on the pillow seemed to keep fading as a stamp would when you keep pressing it down. so I think it might be possible that there wasn't enough blood on the bottom of the shoe to leave prints that headed into the bathroom.

I still believed he lost his right shoe, and took it, possibly walking on the heel of his bloody right foot, to the bathroom to rinse that foot and that's why the bloody print is on the mat. He put the shoe back on, which probably had no blood on it at that point, returned to MK's room for whatever reason, winding up getting more blood on the shoes before he left.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how to explain that his footprint fades like a stamp on the pillow, yet back be seen again headed out the front door, fading as it went that way, too.

 

[Malkmus]

Sure, let's discuss ettiquette for a moment. There was a request for the origin of the remark connecting Sollecito's DNA to the bra clasp in the expert's report. I skimmed several comments, and no one had the information. I grabbed the original text, posted it in quotation marks, and below I attached the google translation, specifiying that it was google translation, without the quotation marks. A quick visual comparison would have made it very apparent that the bracketed phrase was excluded from the google translation. Furthermore, everyone knows that google translation is weak at best.

What was the response to this efffort? Nothing but criticism ... how about that!

Yes, a quick visual comparison did make it apparent the bracketed phrase was "excluded"... let's not dwell on it. Thanks for the link, Otto.

 

[Allusonz]

I would guess it means:
Recall that no investigation was carried out, which targeted exfoliation of cells. It was assumed that this had no scientific basis. still does NOT make any sense

I believe SMK if you recall my posting much earlier to Otto with my analogy of lifesavers would you put a lifesaver in water if you wanted to save it to eat later? Of course not thus we have now proven why the bra clasp could not be retested as it was rusted and there was simply no way to retest the bra.

This does not mean though all hope is lost as they were able to review her findings of which is even worse

 

[Allusonz]

*Most of the cites are from American 'manuals', not Italian or European 'manuals'.

*There is the 'possibility of contamination' at almost EVERY crime scene... with or without protocols.


Last and not least:
***Since we both know you have been reading PMF (not to mention TJMK)regularly... I'm quite sure you have seen from there that RS's dna is on the clasp according to the report. :innocent: Was that 'great' enough by me?

Not according to Stephanoni's testimony. There has never been contamination in her lab. Funny, every lab usually states that contamination is an ongoing issue

 

[Allusonz]

I was reading a report on IIP about the shoe prints. apparently, RG's left shoe print is visible in the room and his right shoe print is visible in the hallway. The article discussed how his left shoe print on the pillow seemed to keep fading as a stamp would when you keep pressing it down. so I think it might be possible that there wasn't enough blood on the bottom of the shoe to leave prints that headed into the bathroom.

I still believed he lost his right shoe, and took it, possibly walking on the heel of his bloody right foot, to the bathroom to rinse that foot and that's why the bloody print is on the mat. He put the shoe back on, which probably had no blood on it at that point, returned to MK's room for whatever reason, winding up getting more blood on the shoes before he left.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how to explain that his footprint fades like a stamp on the pillow, yet back be seen again headed out the front door, fading as it went that way, too.

Never thought of this scenerio and it would make perfect sense as I simply have a difficult time believing that RG went back to get the keys

 

[Allusonz]

BBM

I was hoping that Allusonz would provide the insights. So it's not necessary to read the report to know what in the report ... only necessary to read the last page? No wonder I'm so skeptical of the layman's interpretation of the report! In fact, I think that any responsible person would want to read and analyze the report in order to fully understand the validity of the conclusions. We need look no further than the Motivation Report to know that what is in the report, what is in the conclusion and what people want to read into the conclusions can be very different.

The last chapter is the MOST interesting though. It tells who did it in a mystery novel !!!! Besides having to pick up all the clues along the way. Usually I simply say the wife did it and you would be amazed how often I am right !!! (in a TV show that is)

 

[Allusonz]

Regarding the bra clasp; p.135 of the report:

"Si tratta. pertanto, di un profilo genetico derivante da mistura di sostanze biologiche non meglio identificate (si ricorda che non è stata eseguita alcuna indagine mirata alFevidenziazione delle ipotizzate cellule di sfaldamento quindi l&#8217;affermazione è priva di fondamento scientifico) la cui componente maggiore è rappresentata da DNA della vittima e la componente minore è rappresentata da DNA proveniente da più individui (cfr. STRs autosomici) di sesso maschile (cfr. cromosoma Y). un aplotipo Y dei quali corrisponde all&#8217;aplotipo Y di Raffaele Sollecito."

Google Translate:

It is, therefore, a genetic profile derived from the mixture of unidentified biological substances whose major component is represented by DNA from the victim and the minor component is represented by DNA from more individuals (see autosomal STRs) that were male (see Y chromosome); a haplotype Y which corresponds to the Y haplotype of Raffaele Sollecito.

<modsnip>

Let us use our lifesaver analogy again. If the population of Perugia is 170,000 and 50% are male that would leave 85k males. Out of those lets say that 10% have the same Y haplotype. That would mean that in Perugia alone 8,500 males have the same Y haplotype as RS

The amazing thing Stephanoni did was state that this particular one could only belong to RS when in fact if we use my anology 7,999 others could have the same one. Actually not amazing it was unethical

This means that Stephanoni only used 1 lifesaver and said we have a match. She even did this on the stand in her testimony. Thus the other 7,999 lost out on the lifesaver lotto

 

[Allusonz]

flourish

There are many sites with this translation in English. There are 2 sites in the process of translating the entire report. One being PMF the other here

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/

 

[Allusonz]

Care to post some :innocent: of the 'pile of incorrect info provided' ???

That post would be sure to bring some 'chuckles' IMO.

Nahhhhhhhhhh not my style to post a pile. :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

But these are the same people who said the report would merely uphold the original findings and analyses. It clearly did not. No matter how you might circumlocute, it just did not. Ergo, how can I trust such bad predictors? They are using their brilliance to spin this their way. I find PMF very, very difficult to read: Not because it is over my head, but because the page is black, the print is grey, there is too much red, and it is just a dank, murky mess. And please do not call a lady, "Pal". :dramaqueen: :razz:

Scratches head. Yup they are. Now they are trying a different tactic the math is simply not adding up when I look at my lifesavers though. They are running very low on lifesavers

 

[Allusonz]

Since you are answering questions to others, here is the same.

*Most of their cites were American from much earlier in time. Why not Italian?

*The possiblity of contamination is present. Didn't we know this, isn't it always?

*It was not possible to re-test either item, but they did not agree with DrS's procedures of testing. She, and other experts, will be able to counter their arguments on July 25.

***RS's dna WAS on the bra clasp.

Those are a few things learned, the last being very important IMO.

BBM

I as well would love to see this information from the report

 

[otto]

The last chapter is the MOST interesting though. It tells who did it in a mystery novel !!!! Besides having to pick up all the clues along the way. Usually I simply say the wife did it and you would be amazed how often I am right !!! (in a TV show that is)

You posted that you read the report. Can we assume that you have not read the report, or do you stand by the claim that it has chapters?

 

[otto]

flourish

There are many sites with this conclusion in English. There are 2 sites in the process of translating the entire report. One being PMF the other here

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/

It's all very well to look at the conclusions of a one hundred and fourty something page report and claim to understand it, but ... uhm ... the conclusions are based on the arguments in the report and if the arguments are not sound - such as, for example, the big issue is that contamination may or may not have occurred - then it changes the look of the conclusions.

Why not post some of the pertinent quotes from the Italian document here so everyone can have a go at it. It's been established that Google Translate sucks, but it seems we have some capable translators posting here.