Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[otto]

Then maybe reading the report would be a good idea. They are translating it into english as I have previously as well as Malkmus has previously given the sites of whom is translating it

I would very much like to read the English translation of the DNA report. It's unfortunate that translation takes so much time, so only the highlights are published. The translation sites that Malkmus has linked, such as the person going by the name of Thoughtful at Perugiamurderfile, have made it rather clear that because there is so little time between the first and second hearing, it's not worth translating the entire document ... or do you have a different understanding?

Is the Dempsey, who claims to be fluent in Italian, translating the 145 page report? Fisher? Some of the other pseudo experts that claim expertise in the murder of Meredith Kertcher ... are they translating the expert report?

I sure hope no one is waiting for the victim support website of Meredith Kercher to translate the document, because I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[otto]

That wasn't what I gathered from the discussion there. What I gathered is some posters are saying that the report does not appear to disprove that Raffaelle's DNA is on there. The report states that Stefanoni should not have "cherry-picked" (my phrase) the data. i.e. she should not have selected the peaks which matched Sollecito's and ignored the peaks which did not match him.

The discussion goes on where some of the forum members said they see no problem with matching the peaks to the suspect, since the point of looking at the information is to see if it proves a suspicion.

The response to this is that this evidence is absolutely NOT to be used to prove a suspicion. The evidence is supposed to be an objective fact. A disinterested third party should be able to come up with the same profile.

The implication from the CONCLUSION of this new report is that a disinterested third party would NOT have come up with the same profile Stefanoni came up with.

I agree with Otto, however, that this discussion is complex because none of us DO know what the "standards" are for DNA testing and results. Using disposable tongs SEEMS like a very simple, standard practice, but perhaps it is not universally accepted.

That being said, doctors didn't used to wash their hands, and they killed a lot of people. Some common practices are dangerous. If disposable tongs are not widely used, then I don't think it takes an expert to surmise that one could transfer DNA from one place to the next.

IS Raffaelle's DNA conclusively on the bra clasp? What does the report say?

Why do you think that Dr Stefanoni should not have interpreted the peaks according to her training and expertise?

When crime scene investigators are in a crime scene, should they change their booties every time they cross a wall?

 

[otto]

I'm really curious ... so many pseudo experts have emerged since the translation of the Motivations Summary. They all claim to know and understand the crime scene, murder and court related documents. Are they waiting for someone to translate the expert's report so they can rip it apart; criticize without offering anything better, perpetrate the pseudo expertise? I wonder if any of the pseudo experts can comment on the report before the full context is revealed in court.

Don't ya just want to say: Come'on Dempsey, give an opinion! What are you waiting for? We have heard that you are fluent in Italian ... tell us the weaknesses or strengths in the report that support the conclusions.

Any thoughts on why Dempsey and other pseudo experts have not commented on the report other than to post Google Translations and unreferenced translations?

 

[Nova]

The lab report concludes that contamination cannot be ruled out. This is true of most labs. The report does not conclude that contamination has been ruled in, and it is established that the DNA on the bra clasp can be connected with Sollecito and the DNA on the knife can be connected with Meredith, Knox and Sollecito. It hasn't been ruled out that contamination was possible (and there's some question about whether EU or Knox driven US standards and regulations should be observed) ... it is the family's hope that the possibility of contamination will be interpreted as meaning that contamination occurred and that the guilty pair should be released.

BBM: I'm sorry, but that is pro-guilt spin.

If there is a higher than reasonable (i.e., not conforming to international standards) possibility that contamination may have occurred, then the data is too unreliable to be used as the basis for legal conclusions.

It isn't a matter of anyone hoping that "possibility" will be misread as "certainty."

 

[Nova]

The report appears to be critical of the Italian Justice System, police, investigators, crime scene analysts, forensic analysts and DNA labs. Funny how that's exactly what the Friends of Amanda have been critical of since before her conviction. I suspect that this will result in the convicted pair gaining some headway in their appeal ... if only because it would appear dismissive if the Italian Justice System did not cave to the report's conclusions. The Italian justice system can cave during appeal, and still uphold the conviction in the Supreme Court. Perhaps Knox and Sollecito will be released on a technicality at the Supreme Court ruling ... like ... it could not be proven that there was no contamination in the lab. Is that the sort of victory that Knox and her family are seeking ... anything to get away with murder (like that Florida woman)?

Or ... are Knox and Sollecito seeking to clear their names.

Your posts sound increasingly desperate. As you yourself have pointed out, the discussion of the DNA isn't over. There's no reason to be snide toward the Knox family.

Since the DNA is the lion share of the evidence against AK and RS. (The knife and the bra are the only items that tie either one to a murder weapon or put RS in MK's room.) If they are released because of faulty testing, it won't be a "technicality."

 

[Nova]

Why do you think that Dr Stefanoni should not have interpreted the peaks according to her training and expertise?

I'm not speaking for emyr, but that is not what Dr. S. did. Instead, she ignored protocols and cherry-picked results to give LE the results it wanted.

When crime scene investigators are in a crime scene, should they change their booties every time they cross a wall?

Either that or not claim to rely on testing of items moved about the floor.

 

[otto]

BBM: I'm sorry, but that is pro-guilt spin.

If there is a higher than reasonable (i.e., not conforming to international standards) possibility that contamination may have occurred, then the data is too unreliable to be used as the basis for legal conclusions.

It isn't a matter of anyone hoping that "possibility" will be misread as "certainty."

Is it realistic or pro-guilt/pro-jury/pro-justice to recognize: It hasn't been ruled out that contamination was possible so it is the Knox/Mellas family's hope that the possibility of contamination will be interpreted as meaning that contamination occurred ... so the guilty pair should be released.

I'm hoping that the heros Dempsey, Fisher and all the other Hopkipians are ready to publish their critical analyses of the DNA report soon ... before the report is presented in court. Aren't these guys (Dempsey et al) fluent in Italian and following the case???

 

[otto]

Your posts sound increasingly desperate. As you yourself have pointed out, the discussion of the DNA isn't over. There's no reason to be snide toward the Knox family.

Since the DNA is the lion share of the evidence against AK and RS. (The knife and the bra are the only items that tie either one to a murder weapon or put RS in MK's room.) If they are released because of faulty testing, it won't be a "technicality."

To suggest that my posts are increasingly desperate is like exposing your soft underbelly. Be careful about that.

The discussion of DNA is by no means over. We are eagerly awaiting the US experts to weigh in with an informed knowledge of the report. Doesn't that drive you nuts that the pseudo experts grab translations and google spoofs of the experts report ... but they have nothing to say themselves.

Do you think they might be sleeping or something? Why haven't the supposed US experts associated with the murder of Meredith Kercher said anything about the DNA report other than to grab other people's work? Don't they have anything to say, or are they unable to understand the report?

 

[otto]

I'm not speaking for emyr, but that is not what Dr. S. did. Instead, she ignored protocols and cherry-picked results to give LE the results it wanted.

Either that or not claim to rely on testing of items moved about the floor.

So ... were protocols followed by the experts in Italy? You accuse the forensic experts and analysts of "cherry picking" evidence ... I can only assume that your expertise is superior ... what would you have done differently.

 

[SMK]

The report appears to be critical of the Italian Justice System, police, investigators, crime scene analysts, forensic analysts and DNA labs. Funny how that's exactly what the Friends of Amanda have been critical of since before her conviction. I suspect that this will result in the convicted pair gaining some headway in their appeal ... if only because it would appear dismissive if the Italian Justice System did not cave to the report's conclusions. The Italian justice system can cave during appeal, and still uphold the conviction in the Supreme Court. Perhaps Knox and Sollecito will be released on a technicality at the Supreme Court ruling ... like ... it could not be proven that there was no contamination in the lab. Is that the sort of victory that Knox and her family are seeking ... anything to get away with murder (like that Florida woman)?

Or ... are Knox and Sollecito seeking to clear their names.

But does that mean that one caused the other? Can you by inference assume the Friends of Amanda influenced the report? What if it is simply truth in checkmate? That what FOA thought, these professionals think as well? :waitasec:

 

[Malkmus]

Is it realistic or pro-guilt/pro-jury/pro-justice to recognize: It hasn't been ruled out that contamination was possible so it is the Knox/Mellas family's hope that the possibility of contamination will be interpreted as meaning that contamination occurred ... so the guilty pair should be released.

I'm hoping that the heros Dempsey, Fisher and all the other Hopkipians are ready to publish their critical analyses of the DNA report soon ... before the report is presented in court. Aren't these guys (Dempsey et al) fluent in Italian and following the case???

I think the experts such as Hampikian who called out the shoddy forensics are sitting back contently at this point saying "toldyaso". The vitriol this DNA report is causing in those who think the pair are guilty is causing all sorts mental gymnastics to come out now. I think anyone who thinks the report isn't damaging needs to either wait for a full translation or wait until the 25th. A judge and jury will still make a conclusion in the fall. If they think there is still plenty of other evidence against the two then there is a good chance the pair will remain behind bars. If not, well...

ETA: What Dempsey, Fisher and Hampikian's translation efforts have to do with this is beyond me. The translation being done has already been linked to multiple times. It seems like there needs to be sticky's put up to remind posters of these things so they don't have to be repeated a million times.

 

[Malkmus]

So ... were protocols followed by the experts in Italy? You accuse the forensic experts and analysts of "cherry picking" evidence ... I can only assume that your expertise is superior ... what would you have done differently.

No, protocols were not followed, as stated in the report. It isn't Nova making the accusation it's the independent experts.

4. International protocols of inspection, collection, and sampling were not followed;

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/

 

[Malkmus]

To suggest that my posts are increasingly desperate is like exposing your soft underbelly. Be careful about that.

The discussion of DNA is by no means over. We are eagerly awaiting the US experts to weigh in with an informed knowledge of the report. Doesn't that drive you nuts that the pseudo experts grab translations and google spoofs of the experts report ... but they have nothing to say themselves.

Do you think they might be sleeping or something? Why haven't the supposed US experts associated with the murder of Meredith Kercher said anything about the DNA report other than to grab other people's work? Don't they have anything to say, or are they unable to understand the report?

The experts involved in the trial have spoken. Their opinion of Stefanoni's work is quite clear. Why would it drive anyone mad that there hasn't been a page by page analysis of the report yet? Most here seem content with the translation in progress and are being patient. The job of the Innocence Project was to raise awareness and have the DNA evidence reexamined. As far as they're concerned their job is done. At least that's how I see it.

 

[dgfred]

There is the crux of the whole thing. I would say the bra clasp DNA is dead on arrival now.

Is that your 'hope' or your 'prediction'?

 

[dgfred]

No, protocols were not followed, as stated in the report. It isn't Nova making the accusation it's the independent experts.

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/

But WHO's protocols and what time period cited, and wasn't this also gone over in the trial?

 

[SMK]

Is that your 'hope' or your 'prediction'?

Both:razz:

 

[dgfred]

OK... we will remind you of that in about 10 days :laugh: :slap: .

 

[SMK]

OK... we will remind you of that in about 10 days :laugh: :slap: .

And in about 10 days, I hope to be doing this, for good reason: :razz::razz: But who knows? Who really can say at this point? :waitasec:

By the way, I do not know why TJMK forum claims that there "are no international standards or protocol for forensic testing." I have found online that there indeed exist International Forensic Science institutes and associations, all aimed at setting the highest standards for testing and protocol. If Perugia did not follow, that is to their detriment.

 

[otto]

I think the experts such as Hampikian who called out the shoddy forensics are sitting back contently at this point saying "toldyaso". The vitriol this DNA report is causing in those who think the pair are guilty is causing all sorts mental gymnastics to come out now. I think anyone who thinks the report isn't damaging needs to either wait for a full translation or wait until the 25th. A judge and jury will still make a conclusion in the fall. If they think there is still plenty of other evidence against the two then there is a good chance the pair will remain behind bars. If not, well...

ETA: What Dempsey, Fisher and Hampikian's translation efforts have to do with this is beyond me. The translation being done has already been linked to multiple times. It seems like there needs to be sticky's put up to remind posters of these things so they don't have to be repeated a million times.

So, are you someone that believes that there are only two pieces of evidence available from the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher, and that without this DNA all the murderers will or should go free?

I'm wondering why the critics that claim to know all about the case, and Italian, haven't said anything about the report except what they can plagiarize from the Perugiamurderfile website. Any thoughts?

 

[otto]

No, protocols were not followed, as stated in the report. It isn't Nova making the accusation it's the independent experts.



http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/

The conclusions ... again. The protocols ... so is that because Stefanoni didn't use two separate labs to test the DNA on the knife? Or is that a huge mystery because no one has translated the report?