Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #1,501
The experts involved in the trial have spoken. Their opinion of Stefanoni's work is quite clear. Why would it drive anyone mad that there hasn't been a page by page analysis of the report yet? Most here seem content with the translation in progress and are being patient. The job of the Innocence Project was to raise awareness and have the DNA evidence reexamined. As far as they're concerned their job is done. At least that's how I see it.

Who is translating the report? The Innocence Project? Ms Dempsey? Mr Uknown Fisher? The Italian guy whose website was shut down by google? Which of the US experts, so vocal and knowledgeable about the case, is translating the report?

It seems to me that none of the US experts has a clue about what is going on with the case and that without someone translating court documents, they have nothing to work with. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the self-claimed experts are completely dependent on people from Perugiamurderfile for their information.
 
  • #1,502
Why do you think that Dr Stefanoni should not have interpreted the peaks according to her training and expertise?

When crime scene investigators are in a crime scene, should they change their booties every time they cross a wall?

From these arguments between experts (the defense, prosecution, and independent experts), there is a strong disagreement over procedures. I see this all the time in every profession.

For example, my son's asthma: 3 different doctors all gave me 3 different protocols to follow. One of these doctors provided a protocol the other doctors believed carried unnecessary risk (the use of oral steroids rather than inhaled steroids for a minor illness). Now the doctor who proscribed the steroids is far more educated than me, but were I to see him again I would inform him that I would not accept this protocol, as I had been convinced by other experts that it was a bad idea. If he had what appeared to be a valid response, I might go back to the other doctors to see what they said... but in this scenario, I would probably just not use the prednisone, and if the doctor pushed me on it, I would switch doctors.

So, yes, from my laymen's perspective reading this material, the crime scene investigators should change their booties when they entered Meredith's room, as well as when they exited it. From the forensic article we read where someone transferred the DNA of a super-shedder and not their own, contamination seems a real possibility, not just a remote one.

The original Massei report, Stefanoni's arguments seemed quite persuasive. My understanding was that the defense said she ignored certain peaks, her response was that the peaks were substantially lower, and it was clear which belonged to the correct profile. Defense said contamination was a real possibility, she explained in clear terms how it was a miniscule possibility.

I tend to view defense experts with skepticality as, in the U.S., they always say what is in the best interests of those who hired them.

This report, however, is by experts that were supposedly independent and approved by both the prosecution and defense (as I understand it). Their response has been aggressive that contamination is a high possibility, not a remote one, and that the peaks which were ignored should objectively have been counted. They say booties should have been changed and evidence promptly but in bags (not passed around).

Now that I have learned that Stefanoni did not provide the TMB results, my perspective of her is of a an "expert with an agenda." This changes the weight with which I accept her opinions. She is an expert FOR the prosecution, not an independent expert. Just as the defense experts opinions were weighted.

That being said, if the prosecutor's experts have a response which provides a coherent explanation for why the evidence should still stand, that addresses the points brought up by the independent experts, I would change my mind.

A totally made-up response that would sway me: the DNA on the bra clasp had 10 peaks, and 9 of them matched Sollecito, a match of 9 narrows it to 1% of the Italian population, is it reasonable to believe that Sollecito is this unlucky? The 10th would exclude him, but if we exclude it we would have to believe that someone who is an almost match to Sollecito touched Meredith's bra. That person is 1% of the population. I guess this brings up a good point, if the DNA is NOT Rudy's, and it is a male's DNA (has a Y), then whose DNA is it? The only person who has any business touching the clasp is her boyfriend.

This would spin me off in a whole new set of questions: If it isn't his then we ARE talking multiple killers. If there are multiple killers is it more likely to be Sollecito rather than a compatriot of Guede? OR we are talking contamination and the DNA comes from someone gathering evidence... as happened to the duct tape in the Anthony trial. And then there is the other DNA on the clasp.. is that DNA a result of contamination? Its peaks are much lower. If there is contamination at that level then are we now saying that contamination definitely WAS present. This evidence magically picked up two other profiles that have no business being there, but did not magically pick up Raffaelle's profile? If low level contamination is a rule, then why accept the knife as evidence?

Is that something that makes sense with DNA testing? I don't know. I would be interested to know how many peaks there were on the bra clasp, how many matched Raffaelle's profile, and how many were dismissed. If all were taken, how many people would that match... of the ones that indicated raffaelle, how many people would that match. How many peaks are tested as well? i.e. They test for 100 peaks, 5 peaks could be anyone, 10 peaks could be 1% of the population 9 peaks 10%, 8 peaks 20%... If my profile is peaks at 1 thru 10, and they get a profile of 1 thru 10, and 20 and 30, is it me? If it is 1 thru 10 and 11-15 is it me?

My impression is that this paper is stating that approaching DNA evidence in this manner is a slippery slope, and while there would be a clear desire to do something like this, it undermines the integrity of the science. It is improper to have the person interpreting the results be an investigator. Instead they should provide the exact results: the profile is not an EXACT match. The investigator then drills down statsticially whether or not the results could still be interpreted as a conviction of this suspect.
 
  • #1,503
Watch out for you being 'transferred' to the other PMF site (Michael). A poster the other day was switching between colors and it did that to him/her.
Not sure if it happens or only if you post, just a notice to you.

how do you know which site you're on... are the addresses different, are the sites different? i'm confused

... will you (or anyone) please provide links for both - thanks
 
  • #1,504
  • #1,505
  • #1,506
But WHO's protocols and what time period cited, and wasn't this also gone over in the trial?

Ah, I see now those are the citations you were referring to yesterday...

Yes, some of the citations are from the US and some are written after the murder occured.... Personally I don't see any reason that Italy wouldn't follow handbooks written in the US or that such basic protocols don't exist in earlier versions of the materials cited but we'll have to wait for the trial I guess if you think this might be an issue. I doubt it though. It would be rather careless of the experts to cite handbooks that don't even apply to the case.
 
  • #1,507
So, are you someone that believes that there are only two pieces of evidence available from the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher, and that without this DNA all the murderers will or should go free?

I'm wondering why the critics that claim to know all about the case, and Italian, haven't said anything about the report except what they can plagiarize from the Perugiamurderfile website. Any thoughts?

I don't get questions like this, Otto. I know you believe in all the evidence against AK and RS and I would think you know I don't share that belief. That has nothing to do, however with what a jury will decide. I hope the jury weighs all the evidence fairly, that's all I can say.

Can you cite where experts have plagiarized PMF? You'll need to be more specific if you want my thoughts.
 
  • #1,508
The conclusions ... again. The protocols ... so is that because Stefanoni didn't use two separate labs to test the DNA on the knife? Or is that a huge mystery because no one has translated the report?

A good starting point would be where you got this idea that the experts don't think the results are valid because they should have been done in a different lab.

Second, if you're eager, you could start by reading the section on protocols which is completed:

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...otes-on-inspection-and-collection-techniques/
 
  • #1,509
Who is translating the report? The Innocence Project? Ms Dempsey? Mr Uknown Fisher? The Italian guy whose website was shut down by google? Which of the US experts, so vocal and knowledgeable about the case, is translating the report?

It seems to me that none of the US experts has a clue about what is going on with the case and that without someone translating court documents, they have nothing to work with. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the self-claimed experts are completely dependent on people from Perugiamurderfile for their information.

You can write to the person running the site and ask who they are. I don't know any of the people who translated the motivations report on PMF, do you?
 
  • #1,510
  • #1,511
Yes, but neither side is claiming it was NOT corresponding to RS... no need to be vague on that. If it 'corresponds' to him, I believe his appeal is in a deep hole to begin with.
 
  • #1,512
Yes, but neither side is claiming it was NOT corresponding to RS... no need to be vague on that. If it 'corresponds' to him, I believe his appeal is in a deep hole to begin with.

yes, corresponds to him the way a blood type corresponds to someone.
 
  • #1,513
IMO that is not exactly the same 'corrosponding'. But really, I have nothing to say on the subject (because I know nothing of it) until the courts hearing on the 25th. From this point until then, I will just enjoy the 'banter'.

Even without both the knife and the clasp, I feel like the courts have plenty more evidence against the two and possibly their sentences may be reduced somewhat... but it will not exonerate them and they will remain in prison for a considerable amount of time.

SMK made a prediction, do you care to make one regarding the overall appeal or just the clasp?
 
  • #1,514
IMO that is not exactly the same 'corrosponding'. But really, I have nothing to say on the subject (because I know nothing of it) until the courts hearing on the 25th. From this point until then, I will just enjoy the 'banter'.

Even without both the knife and the clasp, I feel like the courts have plenty more evidence against the two and possibly their sentences may be reduced somewhat... but it will not exonerate them and they will remain in prison for a considerable amount of time.

SMK made a prediction, do you care to make one regarding the overall appeal or just the clasp?

I don't get predictions. I've always said anything can go, but that before the appeals started I thought there was no chance of them going free. Now there seems it's a possibility, but I have no way of knowing. It surprises me that some are so sure of what the outcome will be.
 
  • #1,515
You ever see Johnny Carson do his 'swami' predictions of giving the answers before the questions were asked? :great:
 
  • #1,516
yes, corresponds to him the way a blood type corresponds to someone.

One last thing: From further reading there it seems to me that Katody is saying DrS must/did have RS's profile... so it corrosponds to RS in that it is HIS profile... not a large group of individuals. Same thing that is being said on PMF and TJMK.
 
  • #1,517
A good starting point would be where you got this idea that the experts don't think the results are valid because they should have been done in a different lab.

Second, if you're eager, you could start by reading the section on protocols which is completed:

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...otes-on-inspection-and-collection-techniques/

I think Otto thinks there needs to be two different labs because of the go-around we were having about testing LNC DNA. Someone was saying that, in a busy working lab, asking to do control tests, and cleaning the machines, as well as the other minutae that is required to test LNC DNA is too much to ask for. My response was that if this is the case, then you would send off the evidence to be tested in a lab where those protocols where followed. Stefanoni had two options: 1) To perform safety protocols to ensure that her test of LNC DNA wad done accurately. 2) If this was too much to expect from her busy lab, then she could send it to another lab where no such concern would exist (no Meredith DNA in the machines).

I don't believe the experts said that was a requirement. What they did say was that there are many different methods of verifying if the machines were contaminated prior to testing LNC DNA, and none of these were done.
 
  • #1,518
One last thing: From further reading there it seems to me that Katody is saying DrS must/did have RS's profile... so it corrosponds to RS in that it is HIS profile... not a large group of individuals. Same thing that is being said on PMF and TJMK.

I see what you're referring to:

(posted by Halides1) It seems to me that Stefanoni's words allow for two interpretations. One is that she got the desirable-to-the-prosecution result in the end (Raffaele's DNA was present in both tests), so her method of interpretation must be correct. This would still fail to answer the question of what her method actually was. Two is that she identified the Y chromosome as Raffaele, then used his known autosomal reference profile to identify the peaks in this locus. Neither interpretation puts her in a good light, IMO.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=196814&page=382

I will follow the conversation more closely. I have a lot of faith in Halides1 because he's a biochemist and usually knows what he's talking about.

I believe this refers to the report's criticism of Stefanoni using "suspect-centric" testing where she had the suspect's profile to go off of when interpreting the DNA which is a no-no.
 
  • #1,519
I think Otto thinks there needs to be two different labs because of the go-around we were having about testing LNC DNA. Someone was saying that, in a busy working lab, asking to do control tests, and cleaning the machines, as well as the other minutae that is required to test LNC DNA is too much to ask for. My response was that if this is the case, then you would send off the evidence to be tested in a lab where those protocols where followed. Stefanoni had two options: 1) To perform safety protocols to ensure that her test of LNC DNA wad done accurately. 2) If this was too much to expect from her busy lab, then she could send it to another lab where no such concern would exist (no Meredith DNA in the machines).

I don't believe the experts said that was a requirement. What they did say was that there are many different methods of verifying if the machines were contaminated prior to testing LNC DNA, and none of these were done.

The lab testing, also, is only half of the problem. The other half is the protocol ignored during the collection phase.
 
  • #1,520
IMO that is not exactly the same 'corrosponding'. But really, I have nothing to say on the subject (because I know nothing of it) until the courts hearing on the 25th. From this point until then, I will just enjoy the 'banter'.

Even without both the knife and the clasp, I feel like the courts have plenty more evidence against the two and possibly their sentences may be reduced somewhat... but it will not exonerate them and they will remain in prison for a considerable amount of time.

SMK made a prediction, do you care to make one regarding the overall appeal or just the clasp?
Well, I have recanted. Take a look at this: :razz:

Raffaele Sollecito and the Y-haplotype lottery

Now, you might be tempted to formulate a line of thinking, based on the idea that those ambiguous stutters/peaks might represent some unknown person or persons, that perhaps the DNA reading which looks like it matches Sollecito is actually a random combination of DNA from other people. The trouble is, though, that this proposition doesn’t make any difference to the maths. What we’re talking about is just the frequency (to all intents and purposes, the probability) of that particular combination of alleles occurring in sequence. How they got there doesn’t really matter. There’s just no realistic statistical possibility that they represent anything other than Sollecito’s DNA.
http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/raffaele-sollecito-and-the-y-haplotype-lottery/
 
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