Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[Nova]

MOO JMO

The character assassination of AK has skirted around the absurd and bizarre but now has sprinted beyond it, the investigation, the trial, and the appeals.

When the character assassination involves people outside of the investigation, trial, and appeal and implicates priests, prison officials, and basically anyone that comes into contact with her is wrong.

To even suggest that any of these individuals are doing what is being said is wrong.

To think it is wrong.

You cant skirt around this, sneak past it, tippy-toe around it. It is simply WRONG.

In fairness, A, after so many revelations over the past few years (and there are brand new ones, I hear, via Wikileaks), who can help but associate Catholic priests with misconduct? Intellectually, I know the percentage of wrongdoers is small--and nothing has lessened my respect for the few priests I know personally--but I don't think lay people can magically recapture the respect they once had for the clergy as a whole. We may never again see the day when the word "priest" automatically inspires respect (especially not among us non-Catholics).

So I don't think it is wrong to think there might be misconduct.

But you're right that we can't have a productive conversation based on rumor alone. We need some sort of citation before we add even mere gossip to the sum of knowledge we have on this case.

And the pro-guilty-verdict faction should know that the rest of us are over being titillated or impressed by wild attacks on the character of Amanda Knox. Unless it sheds new light on the murder, trial and/or appeal, I don't care if she is swinging from prison chandeliers and presiding over Satanic rites in the prison mess hall.

 

[Allusonz]

In fairness, A, after so many revelations over the past few years (and there are brand new ones, I hear, via Wikileaks), who can help but associate Catholic priests with misconduct? Intellectually, I know the percentage of wrongdoers is small--and nothing has lessened my respect for the few priests I know personally--but I don't think lay people can magically recapture the respect they once had for the clergy as a whole. We may never again see the day when the word "priest" automatically inspires respect (especially not among us non-Catholics).

So I don't think it is wrong to think there might be misconduct.

But you're right that we can't have a productive conversation based on rumor alone. We need some sort of citation before we add even mere gossip to the sum of knowledge we have on this case.

And the pro-guilty-verdict faction should know that the rest of us are over being titillated or impressed by wild attacks on the character of Amanda Knox. Unless it sheds new light on the murder, trial and/or appeal, I don't care if she is swinging from prison chandeliers and presiding over Satanic rites in the prison mess hall.

if it had been alluded to in that context i might note the might agree but it was not...it is not just priests here it is anyone she can seduce while in prison which implicates a great deal of people whom i believe are simply trying to make an honest living....there is no way you can make these kind of statements about such a vast array of people

 

[Nova]

if it had been alluded to in that context i might note the might agree but it was not...it is not just priests here it is anyone she can seduce while in prison which implicates a great deal of people whom i believe are simply trying to make an honest living....there is no way you can make these kind of statements about such a vast array of people

True. I guess I was reacting to your statement that it was wrong "to even think it."

I'm afraid most of us think of misconduct whenever we think of priests nowadays. Not our fault really.

But whether it's cartwheels, lettering on T-shirts, kissing in lingerie shops, macabre writing in her diary, or canoodling with the prison priest (the latter still unsubstantiated to my knowledge), I'm entirely over the attempts to prove AK's guilt by slandering her character.

It's all rubbish, to use RS' phrase, a bunch of cheap tricks by the prosecutor to try the case in the press.

 

[miley]

Miley, do you have a source for the stabbing incident? I've never heard this and I think it's important for both sides of this discussion that we know how to cut through the hearsay and rumors. Not saying it is in your instance, but I've seen so much of it in regards to this case that I just don't trust anything unless it can be cited.

I'm not sure what you are referring to - maybe this:

Rudy's adolescent rebellion, though, drove a rift between him and Caporali. He fell into the darker side of Perugia's extensive student party scene, allegedly becoming a small-time drug dealer. A knife fight left him with an abdominal scar.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/5.html​

Rudy being involved in a knife fight with a drug dealer occasionally pops up on Frank Sfarzo's site (police have it on file.) Since the other person involved was described as a drug dealer, I assumed it was over drugs or drug related -

Of course none of what I said proves he murdered Meredith anyway and I'm not saying he did but it is starting to look more and more likely - to be fair though, F.S. also said he had never heard of Rudy being mean to women or rather he had never heard of Rudy showing any violence towards women.

I just want to say, even though I've read a lot, I still have a million questions. The process is slow when trying to figure out what is or isn't reliable - basically I just try to follow the logic or what sounds most logical to me. I look at a lot of different web sites (including blogs and even other posters) for reliable info. To be clear, I would never contribute to the rumor mill - never intentionally anyway. I'm pretty conscientious about what I write and want to keep things as real as possible.

 

[Malkmus]

I'm not sure what you are referring to - maybe this:

Rudy's adolescent rebellion, though, drove a rift between him and Caporali. He fell into the darker side of Perugia's extensive student party scene, allegedly becoming a small-time drug dealer. A knife fight left him with an abdominal scar.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/5.html​

Rudy being involved in a knife fight with a drug dealer occasionally pops up on Frank Sfarzo's site (police have it on file.) Since the other person involved was described as a drug dealer, I assumed it was over drugs or drug related -

Of course none of what I said proves he murdered Meredith anyway and I'm not saying he did but it is starting to look more and more likely - to be fair though, F.S. also said he had never heard of Rudy being mean to women or rather he had never heard of Rudy showing any violence towards women.

I just want to say, even though I've read a lot, I still have a million questions. The process is slow when trying to figure out what is or isn't reliable - basically I just try to follow the logic or what sounds most logical to me. I look at a lot of different web sites (including blogs and even other posters) for reliable info. To be clear, I would never contribute to the rumor mill - never intentionally anyway. I'm pretty conscientious about what I write and want to keep things as real as possible.

Awesome, Miley, thanks! That as exactly what I was referring to and glad you could cite it. I think it's very helpful to know these things about Rudy. I often ask people to cite their claims on both sides of this case and sometimes people get really outraged at my requests (they're usually the ones that can't actually back up their claims).

 

[dgfred]

Yes, RG's interaction with drug dealer(s) before the murder is relevant... just as AK's contact with one both BEFORE and AFTER the murder is too. :clap:

 

[Malkmus]

Yes, RG's interaction with drug dealer(s) before the murder is relevant... just as AK's contact with one both BEFORE and AFTER the murder is too. :clap:

I think it's rather the confirmation that he was actually a drug dealer, something that has been disputed numerous times, that is relevant.

 

[dgfred]

Reports of that have pretty much been squashed completely IMO.

 

[Malkmus]

Reports of that have pretty much been squashed completely IMO.

Well, the report does just say he was "allegedly" a drug dealer, but unless there is something that denies the claim I'm not sure this issue has been settled. It would be helpful if you could explain why this has been "squashed". I think also of relevancy is the fact that he has a scar on his chest from a knife fight, coupled with his troubled upbringing as an adopted child and an abusive father, and subsequent break-ins. These are in stark contrast with Amanda's noise violation and Raffaele's carrying a pocketknife and watching a bestiality .

 

[dgfred]

Maybe left out the 'IMO' part of that.

 

[otto]

Is there some distinction to be made between someone like Raffaele, who regularly consumed drugs and kept drug dealers in business, or the guy that sold the drugs?

 

[Nova]

I don't understand why posters think "IMO", "MOO", "IMHO" or any of the other variations on that phrase have some sort of magic power. Opinions are still correct or incorrect, and they can be substantiated or they cannot.

If one means "I'm just guessing," then one should write that instead. (This is not a reference to any specific post or poster.) Otherwise, I think IMO is necessary only to indicate that one is deducing from published reports rather than testifying based on personal knowledge. ("Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, IMO." Because I wasn't there and I'm not claiming to have seen her write it.)

In this case, at least of late and to my knowledge, nobody is claiming personal knowledge of the case or its principals, so pretty much everything posted is either proven (and cited) fact, opinion deduced from established fact, or mere rumor.

 

[Nova]

Is there some distinction to be made between someone like Raffaele, who regularly consumed drugs and kept drug dealers in business, or the guy that sold the drugs?

Our laws suggest so, since the differences in penalties are steep.

I believe the assumption is that the user harms no one but himself and may be motivated by illness (addiction), whereas the dealer chooses to engage in a criminal enterprise. In fact, of course, the distinction may not be so great: many small-time dealers sell largely to support their own addictions.

I don't know that the distinction matters in this case. Beyond the possibility that one or more of the defendants may have been under the influence, I don't know that drugs were a factor in the murder.

 

[otto]

I don't understand why posters think "IMO", "MOO", "IMHO" or any of the other variations on that phrase have some sort of magic power. Opinions are still correct or incorrect, and they can be substantiated or they cannot.

If one means "I'm just guessing," then one should write that instead. (This is not a reference to any specific post or poster.) Otherwise, I think IMO is necessary only to indicate that one is deducing from published reports rather than testifying based on personal knowledge. ("Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, IMO." Because I wasn't there and I'm not claiming to have seen her write it.)

In this case, at least of late and to my knowledge, nobody is claiming personal knowledge of the case or its principals, so pretty much everything posted is either proven (and cited) fact, opinion deduced from established fact, or mere rumor.

The IMO probably belongs along with comments like "Rudy is a drug dealer", since there is no proof that he was a drug dealer. He did drugs, just like Amanda, Raffaele and many other people in the University town. Some people want to paint Rudy as hard core, but he wasn't really much different than Raffaele, Amanda and the guys that lived in the bottom floor of the cottage. Rudy was buddies with most of the occupants in the cottage, all of whom, except Filomina and Laura, have been associated with producing drugs, buying drugs, or consuming drugs. Rudy is pretty much one of the gang ... nothing more, nothing less.

 

[dgfred]

The point was that alleging that someone being a small time drug dealer and having a 'troubled' childhood is much worse or more relevant than a wild party/prankster/jealous/flirt or a knife-carrying-cocaine-problem-having-beastiality--watcher is absolutely one's own opinion... not based on fact or substance.

 

[otto]

Our laws suggest so, since the differences in penalties are steep.

I believe the assumption is that the user harms no one but himself and may be motivated by illness (addiction), whereas the dealer chooses to engage in a criminal enterprise. In fact, of course, the distinction may not be so great: many small-time dealers sell largely to support their own addictions.

I don't know that the distinction matters in this case. Beyond the possibility that one or more of the defendants may have been under the influence, I don't know that drugs were a factor in the murder.

Italian law is what matters here. Personal use quantities of drugs are not considered a problem in most of Europe. If Rudy sold a personal use quantity of hashish to Raffaele, are Rudy's activities worse than Raffaele's? Without a customer, there is no crime.

Amanda and Raffaele have admitted using drugs on the night of the murder, resulting in their memories being wiped clean ... and they have sworn to never touch drugs again. What has been debated is whether they were only using hashish, or whether they were also using something like cocaine, not whether they were stoned.

 

[otto]

The point was that alleging that someone being a small time drug dealer and having a 'troubled' childhood is much worse or more relevant than a wild party/prankster/jealous/flirt or a knife-carrying-cocaine-problem-having-beastiality--watcher is absolutely one's own opinion... not based on fact or substance.

If I had to choose between spending an hour with one of: the B&E guy that might sell drugs, the knife carrying drug addict that likes beastiality, or the lying prankster opportunist writer that likes rape and watching people die slowly ... I'm probably going to choose the drug dealer.

 

[Nova]

The IMO probably belongs along with comments like "Rudy is a drug dealer", since there is no proof that he was a drug dealer. He did drugs, just like Amanda, Raffaele and many other people in the University town. Some people want to paint Rudy as hard core, but he wasn't really much different than Raffaele, Amanda and the guys that lived in the bottom floor of the cottage. Rudy was buddies with most of the occupants in the cottage, all of whom, except Filomina and Laura, have been associated with producing drugs, buying drugs, or consuming drugs. Rudy is pretty much one of the gang ... nothing more, nothing less.

Did they all have abdominal scars from knife fights? That strikes me as a tad more hard core (i.e., IMO).

And didn't I read that RG was alleged to have dealt drugs in a police report? The "alleged" should be included, but that's a bit more than mere opinion.

Changing the subject, slightly, I know that RG was a friend of the boys downstairs (which is why I disagree with the Motivation Report's certainty that MK would not open the door to him). But what gave you your sense of that friendship? I mean what testimony, etc., most helped you to form your understanding of the relationships?

 

[Nova]

The point was that alleging that someone being a small time drug dealer and having a 'troubled' childhood is much worse or more relevant than a wild party/prankster/jealous/flirt or a knife-carrying-cocaine-problem-having-beastiality--watcher is absolutely one's own opinion... not based on fact or substance.

My bad, then, fred. I entirely misunderstood. I thought you were referring to your own previous post and its "IMO." Now I see you meant that another poster should have qualified his post.

Sorry 'bout that.

 

[dgfred]

Did the guy that got the knife scar have a knife at the time?
Getting a scar is not the hard core part, GIVING the scar might be.

Alot of things are 'alleged', but nothing showing/proving RG was a dealer has been presented. At most I think he was probably just a middle man between transactions- he wanted to 'help' the students and hang out with/around them and could get them what they wanted.