Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[otto]

Otto, you seem to believe still that the original diary entry you posted is the correct one. You need to read the real one and see that the wording and intent is completely different. If you believe she wrote things like that then I can see why you believe she is guilty. However, she did not write what you posted.

Can we assume that it is possible to know the difference between a summary of Amanda's changing alibi, and the context in which that those alibis were given?

Can we assume that the media took information that was provided by Amanda, or Raffaele, and created whatever they wanted from it? Foxy Knoxy, for example, wasn't fabricated, it was the nickname that Amanda used on her myspace page. What the media made of it something else, but nickname came from Amanda.

Can we assume that it is possible to follow this case and form an opinion without being hopelessly influenced by the media, or the likes of PR teams and Douglas Preston?

 

[Malkmus]

An obvious lie in the "gift" letter is that she says "One of the things I am sure that definitely happened" is that they ate late, around 11 pm. That's simply not true; nothing more than a selfserving lie offered to place herself somewhere other than the cottage at the time of the murder.

Interesting that you left the rest of that sentence off:

One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock.

By the way do you have Raffaele's father's statement stating what the phone call was about. I have to admit that I've been taking everyone's word that he said that they had already eaten dinner by that point. I'm not denying he said that, but I'd like to see his actual wording as that seems to clarify a lot of things in this case. Thanks.

 

[dgfred]

Please see my previous response to otto. That AK and RS ate only once and that the water spill was a finite event are both assumptions. (And the latter may be a translation problem. Read all the testimony again, substituting water "leak" for water "spill." It reads quite differently.)

The 'spill' or 'leak'... which ever you want to call it was from the drain pipe. Only water that was in the sink would 'leak' out, it would not just keep on leaking as long as the water was turned off. It is quite plain to see that the timing of eating is a lie... unless she was REALLY high on something :liar: .

 

[dgfred]

By the way do you have Raffaele's father's statement stating what the phone call was about. I have to admit that I've been taking everyone's word that he said that they had already eaten dinner by that point. I'm not denying he said that, but I'd like to see his actual wording as that seems to clarify a lot of things in this case. Thanks.

Are you claiming that you can't find it :snooty: , you are usually excellent with links. :waitasec:

If it is shown that he indeed said that RS told him they had already eaten and about the spill... will the charade of claiming that it was not a lie when AK stated they ate 'around' 11pm (even though she didn't look at a clock) be given up :slap: ???

 

[Malkmus]

Can we assume that it is possible to know the difference between a summary of Amanda's changing alibi, and the context in which that those alibis were given?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. What I do know about Amanda's alibi is that it changed twice, on the night of November 5th according to what the police thought she had done with Patrick, and then back to her original alibi shortly after that interrogation. If you're still stuck on the diary entry you posted earlier, the actual one I posted does not demonstrate a change in her alibi whatsoever.

Can we assume that the media took information that was provided by Amanda, or Raffaele, and created whatever they wanted from it? Foxy Knoxy, for example, wasn't fabricated, it was the nickname that Amanda used on her myspace page. What the media made of it something else, but nickname came from Amanda.

Again, not sure what your point is. Yes, "Foxy Knoxy" was taken from her Myspace, and was used to conotate something different from its actual meaning. What does that have to do with all the errors printed in the press which had nothing to do with anything Amanda and Raf actually did?

Can we assume that it is possible to follow this case and form an opinion without being hopelessly influenced by the media, or the likes of PR teams and Douglas Preston?

Agreed. But the only false information I've seen on here lately has been things like the mistranslated diary entry from yesterday and saying things like Amanda "lied" about receiving the text because she was on her way to work at 8:30 when we know her shift didn't even start until 10. So I'm not sure why you're bringing Doug Preston or the "PR teams" into this.

 

[otto]

Interesting that you left the rest of that sentence off:



By the way do you have Raffaele's father's statement stating what the phone call was about. I have to admit that I've been taking everyone's word that he said that they had already eaten dinner by that point. I'm not denying he said that, but I'd like to see his actual wording as that seems to clarify a lot of things in this case. Thanks.

Isn't that a wonderful statement from Amanda? It so convoluted. She started the sentence by saying that there is one thing she is definitely sure about, and ends the sentence by saying she isn't sure. The only thing that anyone can extract from that is that dinner was late, possibly as late as 11 pm - of that, she is definitely sure and unsure.

I would have to search the internet for more information than the link I posted (motivation report) ... I would suggest looking in news links from about 4 years ago.

 

[otto]

I'm not sure what you're asking here. What I do know about Amanda's alibi is that it changed twice, on the night of November 5th according to what the police thought she had done with Patrick, and then back to her original alibi shortly after that interrogation. If you're still stuck on the diary entry you posted earlier, the actual one I posted does not demonstrate a change in her alibi whatsoever.



Again, not sure what your point is. Yes, "Foxy Knoxy" was taken from her Myspace, and was used to conotate something different from its actual meaning. What does that have to do with all the errors printed in the press which had nothing to do with anything Amanda and Raf actually did?



Agreed. But the only false information I've seen on here lately has been things like the mistranslated diary entry from yesterday and saying things like Amanda "lied" about receiving the text because she was on her way to work at 8:30 when we know her shift didn't even start until 10. So I'm not sure why you're bringing Doug Preston or the "PR teams" into this.

I am totally lost regarding this media point. Could you please clarify what point you are making about the role of the media in this murder conviction? I trust you are not suggesting that people that have followed the case have based their opinions on something written in the newspaper.

 

[Malkmus]

Are you claiming that you can't find it :snooty: , you are usually excellent with links. :waitasec:

Correct, dgfred, I've never read his statements, only seen posters refer to them. I do have a lot of links, and asking people is one way of getting them.

If it is shown that he indeed said that RS told him they had already eaten and about the spill... will the charade of claiming that it was not a lie when AK stated they ate 'around' 11pm (even though she didn't look at a clock) be given up :slap: ???

Dgfred, I've already conceded that the phone call did happen and that the meal was mentioned during this call. I just want to see his exact words. So obviously my opinion's not going to change on that.

 

[Malkmus]

I am totally lost regarding this media point. Could you please clarify what point you are making about the role of the media in this murder conviction?

It's very ironic that you're missing my point about the media's misrepresentation of this case when you yourself cited false information in the press yesterday.

I trust you are not suggesting that people that have followed the case have based their opinions on something written in the newspaper.

Again, do you not see the irony considering you just told me to search for a media link (translation: newspaper) to find the quotes from Raf's father, yet you're telling me people shouldn't base their opinions on something written in a newspaper.

P.S. I have no problem citing media reports. Using online media reports is fine, as long as you can discern between what has been proven to be true and that which has been proven to be tabloid trash.

 

[otto]

From the motivation report (pg 359) ... based on information that was presented in court:

"Once dinner had been finished at about 20.40 pm (on this subject the phone call which Francesco Sollecito made to his son, and what he declared in this regard during the hearing of 19 June 2009, should be recalled)"

 

[Malkmus]

Isn't that a wonderful statement from Amanda? It so convoluted. She started the sentence by saying that there is one thing she is definitely sure about, and ends the sentence by saying she isn't sure. The only thing that anyone can extract from that is that dinner was late, possibly as late as 11 pm - of that, she is definitely sure and unsure.

Let's keep you up all day today, tonight as well with no sleep, and have you write a summary tomorrow afternoon of what you did four days ago. I'd be surprised if you're memory didn't feel confused too, and especially when you've had ten police officers yelling at you that they know for a fact you did something completely different from what you think you did.

 

[otto]

It's very ironic that you're missing my point about the media's misrepresentation of this case when you yourself cited false information in the press yesterday.



Again, do you not see the irony considering you just told me to search for a media link (translation: newspaper) to find the quotes from Raf's father, yet you're telling me people shouldn't base their opinions on something written in a newspaper.

P.S. I have no problem citing media reports. Using online media reports is fine, as long as you can discern between what has been proven to be true and that which has been proven to be tabloid trash.

I'm assuming your point is not to state that because someone quoted a media source, they are therefore unable to form an unbiased opinion. I'm assuming that it is well understood that people following this case are able to discern between court documented facts, and blog, talking head, or media interpretations.

 

[Malkmus]

From the motivation report (pg 359) ... based on information that was presented in court:

"Once dinner had been finished at about 20.40 pm (on this subject the phone call which Francesco Sollecito made to his son, and what he declared in this regard during the hearing of 19 June 2009, should be recalled)"

Thanks for trying to help, but I'd like to see what he actually said. The Massei report is selective with certain witness testimony, even when citing particular people's quotes. For instance, Filomena testified three times about closing the outside shutters but not remembering for sure if she did (just like Amanda's statements), yet Massei still concluded that she did in fact close them because it benefitted his final conclusion.

 

[Malkmus]

I'm assuming your point is not to state that because someone quoted a media source, they are therefore unable to form an unbiased opinion. I'm assuming that it is well understood that people following this case are able to discern between court documented facts, and blog, talking head, or media interpretations.

You seem to have a hard time discerning the difference between the fake diary entry you posted and the real one I posted. So, yes, I would say people have a hard time discerning "between court documented facts, and blog, talking head, or media interpretations".

 

[otto]

Let's keep you up all day today, tonight as well with no sleep, and have you write a summary tomorrow afternoon of what you did four days ago. I'd be surprised if you're memory didn't feel confused too, and especially when you've had ten police officers yelling at you that they know for a fact you did something completely different from what you think you did.

We've been through this a few times. Amanda was questioned from 11:30 until 1:30, at which time her status was changed from witness to suspect. 1:30 is not particularly late for post-sec. students.

I realize that the Knox PR team has suggested that Amanda was questioned continuously for something like 56 hours, but I'm confident anyone that is interested has checked the facts.

 

[otto]

Thanks for trying to help, but I'd like to see what he actually said. The Massei report is selective with certain witness testimony, even when citing particular people's quotes. For instance, Filomena testified three times about closing the outside shutters but not remembering for sure if she did (just like Amanda's statements), yet Massei still concluded that she did in fact close them because it benefitted his final conclusion.

If you don't want to rely on court documents, perhaps you can find a media story about Raffaeles father's testimony.

 

[Malkmus]

We've been through this a few times. Amanda was questioned from 11:30 until 1:30, at which time her status was changed from witness to suspect. 1:30 is not particularly late for post-sec. students.

I realize that the Knox PR team has suggested that Amanda was questioned continuously for something like 56 hours, but I'm confident anyone that is interested has checked the facts.

We weren't talking about her 1:30 statement. We were talking about her "gift" letter written the next afternoon, at which point she had not slept.

 

[Malkmus]

If you don't want to rely on court documents, perhaps you can find a media story about Raffaeles father's testimony.

Yes, I will look for that. And it's not that I don't want to rely on court documents, it's just that the one you provided doesn't quote his testimony which is what I'm interested in reading. I feel like I need to repeat again that I'm not denying that the dinner was mentioned in that phone call (in fact I was the one who stated he did about two pages back), I'm just interested in seeing exactly what he said.

 

[otto]

We weren't talking about her 1:30 statement. We were talking about her "gift" letter written the next afternoon, at which point she had not slept.

So Amanda was put in a cell at 1:30, and a couple of hours later she asked for paper and pen. Are you suggesting that this was not a voluntary action? Amanda could have slept, she could have waited for a lawyer, she could have done many things ... but she decided to stay up and write a letter; a gift. I guess post sec. students can easily stay up much later than 1:30.

 

[otto]

Yes, I will look for that. And it's not that I don't want to rely on court documents, it's just that the one you provided doesn't quote his testimony which is what I'm interested in reading. I feel like I need to repeat again that I'm not denying that the dinner was mentioned in that phone call (in fact I was the one who stated he did about two pages back), I'm just interested in seeing exactly what he said.

They ate fish and salad, and while he was washing the dishes, the pipe broke. When Raffaele spoke to his father, he mentioned dinner and the pipe. His father was able to specify the time was 8:42 ... a complete contradiction with Amanda's claims.

That information is straight from the motivation report, which references various witness sworn statements. If you want access to witness statements that were introduced in court, you'll probably have to travel to Perugia and translate the documents .. or check news reports from November 2007.