Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[Malkmus]

I thought that Patrick was her employer of a couple of weeks, not a friend.

You can consider your boss a friend. Amanda only knew Raffaele six days and of course they were friends. I don't think you can put a time frame restriction on who to call a friend. Either way, she's calling Patrick her friend in the letter, so it seems she considered him one.

 

[Malkmus]

It wasn't "asserted" that it was connected with the murder. Amanda was asked if it was there before the murder, and she said that it was not. Therefore, it must have gotten then at the time of the murder. Amanda confirmed that it was related to the murder ... something that no one else was sure about until her testimony.

You're making it sound as if she was talking about her one drop of blood on the faucet. We don't know when that droplet was deposited, and what I was saying is that it's possible she never noticed it before the murder, but did notice Meredith's multiple and more obvious drops of blood which weren't there beforehand.

 

[miley]

According to Rudy, he was in Meredith's room when the kabab he ate didn't sit well, then he went to the bathroom. This is not a cooked up scenario, but a confession from Rudy. Rudy admits he was there, that he was not alone, that he was there when Meredith was murdered, and that he fled after the murder.

You do realize Rudy is a knife wielding, breaking and entering, stealing, drug dealer? In other words, if anyone gets in his way while he is stealing or dealing he threatens to kill them with a knife. He and another drug dealer tried to stab each other over drugs - Rudy has a scar across his chest because someone sliced him with a knife.

He admitted to a friend the night before the murder he might get kicked out of his apartment because he had to show his landlord proof of a job -

During the month of October, one of the guys downstairs saw a man in the bushes watching the house, two weeks before Meredith died, SHE SAW a man in the bushes watching the house. Rudy's friends admit he has a "thing" for English girls but not reciprocal - his dna was found inside of Meredith, all over her room and in her purse - he left an outline of his knife in Meredith's blood. He also said Meredith tried to write him a message on the wall in her own blood...

and oh yea,
Rudy confessed to his friend (and police) via skype that Amanda WAS NOT THERE that night during the murder...

 

[otto]

You're making it sound as if she was talking about her one drop of blood on the faucet. We don't know when that droplet was deposited, and what I was saying is that it's possible she never noticed it before the murder, but did notice Meredith's multiple and more obvious drops of blood which weren't there beforehand.

Let's suppose the blood was there before the murder. If this is true, then why in the world, when Amanda was asked if it was there before the murder, didn't she answer that it was there days before, or that she didn't know if it was there? Why did she confirm that it was not there? It makes no sense to me that the blood was there for days, but when Amanda is asked if it was there the day before the murder, she says it was not.

Regarding the lamp, if Meredith had never gone into her roommates bedrooms and taken things at any time while she lived in the cottage, why would she suddenly do it on the night that she is murdered? If she habitually took things from her roommates bedrooms, wouldn't that have been reported by one of the other roommates?

It seems that we want it to be true that Meredith took Amanda's lamp without permission, and there was blood in the sink for days but Amanda lied and said that it wasn't there.

 

[otto]

You do realize Rudy is a knife wielding, breaking and entering, stealing, drug dealer? In other words, if anyone gets in his way while he is stealing or dealing he threatens to kill them with a knife. He and another drug dealer tried to stab each other over drugs - Rudy has a scar across his chest because someone sliced him with a knife.

He admitted to a friend the night before the murder he might get kicked out of his apartment because he had to show his landlord proof of a job -

During the month of October, one of the guys downstairs saw a man in the bushes watching the house, two weeks before Meredith died, SHE SAW a man in the bushes watching the house. Rudy's friends admit he has a "thing" for English girls but not reciprocal - his dna was found inside of Meredith, all over her room and in her purse - he left an outline of his knife in Meredith's blood. He also said Meredith tried to write him a message on the wall in her own blood...

and oh yea,
Rudy confessed to his friend (and police) via skype that Amanda WAS NOT THERE that night during the murder...

Drug dealer? No, I didn't realize that. I do know that Raffaele has plenty of contact with drug dealers ... because he had a pretty good supply of hashish when he was arrested. I know that Raffaele was carrying a knife when he was arrested. I know that Raffaele was under supervision because of his propensity toward bestiality films. I know that Amanda was so proud of her rape story that she posted it on MySpace. Was Rudy convicted of any crimes? I understood that he was working at the time of the murder. In any case, we know that Rudy is not a good person because of his participation in the murder ... and he was involved in a B & E, carried a knife, did drugs, was an athlete, was taken in by a family in Perugia, and probably had personal difficulties because of his upbringing. We know that Raffaele came from a good family, and also had personal problems.

Men in the bushes? Haven't heard about that.

 

[flourish]

She's of course referring to Patrick. Is there someone else you think she'd be referring to?

Of course?
No, that's your opinion. Meredith was her friend and Meredith was hurt, so, yes there is more than one way to interpret that statement.

 

[Malkmus]

Of course?
No, that's your opinion. Meredith was her friend and Meredith was hurt, so, yes there is more than one way to interpret that statement.

You're right, it is my opinion. And I do appreciate your trying to explain who, other than Patrick, she could have been referring to. Since Otto was not directly saying who he thought she was referring to I actually had no idea who else she might have been talking about because, personally, I don't see how that passage could be referring to her. So, thanks, and hopefully we can clear this up.

There are just too many contradictions that have to be ignored in order to reach that conclusion. If all we had was the "I ****** up so bad and I'm so sorry I did it because I hurt a friend" I could see how we might venture that she was referring to Meredith. But there's more to the letter than that, so let's take a look.


1. She states twice in the letter that she is innocent. So for her to then just blatantly confess to the crime by saying she "****** up" and "hurt" Meredith by stabbing her to death just doesn't make sense.

2. She states that "realizing Meredith had been murdered" was the second worst experience in her life. Again, doesn't make much sense if she's claiming responsibility for said murder.

3. The part where she says she "****** up" and "hurt a friend" is immediately after the part where she states she succumbed to police pressure and got confused. That's what she "****ed up", getting confused as she says, which landed her and Patrick in jail. Why would she apologize for being confused and scared in the interrogation, then immediately after that state that she killed Meredith?

4. Why would she write what is basically a confession letter, knowing that ILE were screening all her letters? Why would she write her parents that she is guilty but then expect them to bankrupt themselves in lawyer fees for the next several years?

5. "Hurting" Meredith is a bizzarre way to put killing your friend. But it is apt if referring to Patrick getting locked up due to her statements.

6. Why is she "furious" at ILE if she's basically claiming responsibility for Meredith's death?

How many things work against the notion that she is referring to Patrick? That fact that she calls him a friend? Seems to me it makes much more sense in light of the rest of the letter.

The subject matter of that whole letter is that she is innocent, and regrets succumbing to police pressure which landed her and Patrick in jail. There's just too many contradictions to see it as a confession letter.

 

[Malkmus]

Let's suppose the blood was there before the murder. If this is true, then why in the world, when Amanda was asked if it was there before the murder, didn't she answer that it was there days before, or that she didn't know if it was there? Why did she confirm that it was not there? It makes no sense to me that the blood was there for days, but when Amanda is asked if it was there the day before the murder, she says it was not.

I feel like I've already explained my reasoning for this, but maybe I'm overcomplicating it, so I'll try to make it as simple as I can. When Amanda says the blood wasn't there before the murder she is talking about the multiple streaks/drops of blood belonging to Meredith. She probably never noticed the one drop left by her ear infection which was left on the faucet before the murder because it was just one, and would have been less obvious because it was on the silver-colored faucet, not the bright white sink bowl.

Regarding the lamp, if Meredith had never gone into her roommates bedrooms and taken things at any time while she lived in the cottage, why would she suddenly do it on the night that she is murdered? If she habitually took things from her roommates bedrooms, wouldn't that have been reported by one of the other roommates?

It seems that we want it to be true that Meredith took Amanda's lamp without permission, and there was blood in the sink for days but Amanda lied and said that it wasn't there.

I think you're assuming things about the relationship of the four girls as roommates that we simply don't know. It's possible that Meredith might have mentioned she was going to borrow Amanda's lamp to Laura or Filomena if they were around at the moment she decided to do it, and it's also possible that she was just going to let Amanda know at some later point. I think roommates will borrow things from one roommate without letting the other two know. I know when I was living with two other people in my twenties that I would borrow one guy's CD's all the time without letting the other one know because it didn't matter to that other guy. I think if I would have told him he would have just responded with "Why are you telling me?".

 

[Malkmus]

You do realize Rudy is a knife wielding, breaking and entering, stealing, drug dealer? In other words, if anyone gets in his way while he is stealing or dealing he threatens to kill them with a knife. He and another drug dealer tried to stab each other over drugs - Rudy has a scar across his chest because someone sliced him with a knife.

He admitted to a friend the night before the murder he might get kicked out of his apartment because he had to show his landlord proof of a job -

During the month of October, one of the guys downstairs saw a man in the bushes watching the house, two weeks before Meredith died, SHE SAW a man in the bushes watching the house. Rudy's friends admit he has a "thing" for English girls but not reciprocal - his dna was found inside of Meredith, all over her room and in her purse - he left an outline of his knife in Meredith's blood. He also said Meredith tried to write him a message on the wall in her own blood...

and oh yea,
Rudy confessed to his friend (and police) via skype that Amanda WAS NOT THERE that night during the murder...

Miley, do you have a source for the stabbing incident? I've never heard this and I think it's important for both sides of this discussion that we know how to cut through the hearsay and rumors. Not saying it is in your instance, but I've seen so much of it in regards to this case that I just don't trust anything unless it can be cited.

 

[Allusonz]

Which friend did Amanda hurt?

I think in the context of this it is quite apparent that she has

referenced her murdered friend etc and as your progress through the text it is apparent that she is talking about her friend PL

 

[Allusonz]

I may have opened the wrong can of worms by simply mentioning "college creative writing classes". I think the bigger picture here is to simply look at Amanda's story (about date rape at a party IIRC) and determine if if it's unusual for girls here age to write about such subjects. Personally, I find nothing strange about it, but since that appears to come off as bias, I think the only way to resolve this is with some actual data.

but it sure gave me a good chuckle thus worth it

 

[Allusonz]

Yes, the lamp cord was under the locked door and plugged into the hallway when the police arrived.

Actually, no it was not plugged into the wall outlet when they arrived

 

[Allusonz]

Let's suppose the blood was there before the murder. If this is true, then why in the world, when Amanda was asked if it was there before the murder, didn't she answer that it was there days before, or that she didn't know if it was there? Why did she confirm that it was not there? It makes no sense to me that the blood was there for days, but when Amanda is asked if it was there the day before the murder, she says it was not.

Why would she state she would see it if she did not? If she did not see it the morning she arrived back how could she state she had seen it previously?

 

[Allusonz]

It reminds of Amanda's statements after walking off the job in Berlin. She said that because she had the flu for a couple of days in the week prior to starting the job, she still felt sick on the day she started working, so she left ... and she was bored ... and she didn't have anything to do ... and she wanted to have fun in Berlin ... and "ciao sucker".

I have no idea what you are referencing here

This is in reference to her time in Germany prior to arriving in Perugia

 

[otto]

Of course?
No, that's your opinion. Meredith was her friend and Meredith was hurt, so, yes there is more than one way to interpret that statement.

With the way that Amanda rambles around in her writings, I thought she was talking about Meredith, and it didn't even cross my mind that she was referring to Patrick. Patrick is not her friend, he is the employer she had for a couple of weeks and who demoted her because she didn't follow his instructions. Patrick is the guy that she falsely accused of murder. She ruined his life. If that's how she treats friends, I wouldn't want to know how she treats enemies ... or do we already know that ... per Meredith.

 

[otto]

I think in the context of this it is quite apparent that she has

referenced her murdered friend etc and as your progress through the text it is apparent that she is talking about her friend PL

Does Amanda claim that she and Patick were friends? She claims that she and Meredith were friends. We know from Patrick that he and Amanda were not friends; simply employer/employee, and that he was not happy with her quality of work. We know from Meredith's friends that Meredith initially thought Amanda was nice, but later expressed concerns about Amanda bringing men to the cottage, her cleanliness, and we know that Meredith did not include Amanda in her Halloween evening plans ... even though Amanda called her through the evening and had nothing to do.

 

[otto]

I feel like I've already explained my reasoning for this, but maybe I'm overcomplicating it, so I'll try to make it as simple as I can. When Amanda says the blood wasn't there before the murder she is talking about the multiple streaks/drops of blood belonging to Meredith. She probably never noticed the one drop left by her ear infection which was left on the faucet before the murder because it was just one, and would have been less obvious because it was on the silver-colored faucet, not the bright white sink bowl.

I think you're assuming things about the relationship of the four girls as roommates that we simply don't know. It's possible that Meredith might have mentioned she was going to borrow Amanda's lamp to Laura or Filomena if they were around at the moment she decided to do it, and it's also possible that she was just going to let Amanda know at some later point. I think roommates will borrow things from one roommate without letting the other two know. I know when I was living with two other people in my twenties that I would borrow one guy's CD's all the time without letting the other one know because it didn't matter to that other guy. I think if I would have told him he would have just responded with "Why are you telling me?".

I find that such a stretch ... to explain the unexplained lamp on the floor of Meredith's bedroom by saying that Meredith told two people that she was going to go into someone else's private bedroom and take something. As a student, I lived in shared accommodation, and there is no way that it was okay for anyone to wander into someone else's room when they were away ... and take things. Furthermore, if Meredith had told a third party that she was going to enter Amanda's room and take things, they would probably have told her to discuss it with Amanda.

I'm getting the impression that others see the transfer of Amanda's lamp to Meredith's bedroom floor as problematic, and recognize the probability that Amanda put it there, so there is quite an effort to suggest that the lamp was moved because Meredith took things without permission. Nevermind that no one has described Meredith as having this personality quirk.

 

[Malkmus]

I find that such a stretch ... to explain the unexplained lamp on the floor of Meredith's bedroom by saying that Meredith told two people that she was going to go into someone else's private bedroom and take something. As a student, I lived in shared accommodation, and there is no way that it was okay for anyone to wander into someone else's room when they were away ... and take things. Furthermore, if Meredith had told a third party that she was going to enter Amanda's room and take things, they would probably have told her to discuss it with Amanda.

I'm getting the impression that others see the transfer of Amanda's lamp to Meredith's bedroom floor as problematic, and recognize the probability that Amanda put it there, so there is quite an effort to suggest that the lamp was moved because Meredith took things without permission. Nevermind that no one has described Meredith as having this personality quirk.

A couple things here. The lamp is a big deal to internet posters, but was glossed over in the trial. While being cross-examined in court she was merely asked if she noticed her lamp missing to which she replied no. It was never insinuated that it was used as part of the murder. The motivations report also mentions it just passingly, without insinuating what you are.
Additionally, Amanda would not have needed to haul her lamp in there to search under the bed for an earring that was never torn out or something else because Meredith's bedside lamp was right there. So why did Amanda bring the lamp in there? Why is emphasis only put on the lamp by people on the internet if it wasn't important to the judge and jury?

I've noticed, Otto that you're still stuck on whether Amanda was referring to Meredith or Patrick in her letter. Perhaps you'd like to address my post on this where I list all the contradictions associated with that notion.

 

[otto]

A couple things here. The lamp is a big deal to internet posters, but was glossed over in the trial. While being cross-examined in court she was merely asked if she noticed her lamp missing to which she replied no. It was never insinuated that it was used as part of the murder. The motivations report also mentions it just passingly, without insinuating what you are.
Additionally, Amanda would not have needed to haul her lamp in there to search under the bed for an earring that was never torn out or something else because Meredith's bedside lamp was right there. So why did Amanda bring the lamp in there? Why is emphasis only put on the lamp by people on the internet if it wasn't important to the judge and jury?

I've noticed, Otto that you're still stuck on whether Amanda was referring to Meredith or Patrick in her letter. Perhaps you'd like to address my post on this where I list all the contradictions associated with that notion.

Here is the letter contents per your previous post.

"Dear Madison (and everyone)
Missing you (a blank spot). I'm missing everyone I care
about back home. It's pretty frickin' lonely around here.
I'm definitely going to need a hug when I get back. Then
a good long talk, and some hot chocolate if you can
manage. Not going to lie - [this is the worst experience of
my life. Take that back, the night when I spent hours
trying to tell the police I was innocent while they told
me I was lying, yelled at me,] hit me [- that was the
worst experience of my life.] The second worst was when I
realized Meredith had been murdered. Which means things
have only been getting better since then, and this is the
kind of outlook I'm trying to keep on the days ??
I’m not telling you this to burn you out, but you're the
person I’d be telling this to anyway, and I'm ??
furious. It’s not like they beat me here in prison
and the food’s not bad but I really, really, don’t want to
be here. I’ve been studying to distract myself and in the
meantime feeling like an absolute coward for letting
the police confuse me. [When they threatened to throw
me in jail for 30 years for lying to them I should have
held out my arms for the cuffs and told them to have
fun condemning an innocent person (or just to **** off)
but instead I got confused and scared and I ****ed up.]
I ****ed up so bad Madison and I’m so sorry I did it
because I hurt a friend of mine and landed myself in
here. It’s been 26 days since I arrived here. The first
8 I was kept in isolation without books, TV, and they
watched me while I took my showers. Since then I’ve
?? with a crazy woman and then I have changed
?? with 3 other people, 2 of which are"

Where does she mention Patrick?

 

[Malkmus]

Here is the letter contents per your previous post.

"Dear Madison (and everyone)
Missing you (a blank spot). I'm missing everyone I care
about back home. It's pretty frickin' lonely around here.
I'm definitely going to need a hug when I get back. Then
a good long talk, and some hot chocolate if you can
manage. Not going to lie - [this is the worst experience of
my life. Take that back, the night when I spent hours
trying to tell the police I was innocent while they told
me I was lying, yelled at me,] hit me [- that was the
worst experience of my life.] The second worst was when I
realized Meredith had been murdered. Which means things
have only been getting better since then, and this is the
kind of outlook I'm trying to keep on the days ??
I’m not telling you this to burn you out, but you're the
person I’d be telling this to anyway, and I'm ??
furious. It’s not like they beat me here in prison
and the food’s not bad but I really, really, don’t want to
be here. I’ve been studying to distract myself and in the
meantime feeling like an absolute coward for letting
the police confuse me. [When they threatened to throw
me in jail for 30 years for lying to them I should have
held out my arms for the cuffs and told them to have
fun condemning an innocent person (or just to **** off)
but instead I got confused and scared and I ****ed up.]
I ****ed up so bad Madison and I’m so sorry I did it
because I hurt a friend of mine and landed myself in
here. It’s been 26 days since I arrived here. The first
8 I was kept in isolation without books, TV, and they
watched me while I took my showers. Since then I’ve
?? with a crazy woman and then I have changed
?? with 3 other people, 2 of which are"

Where does she mention Patrick?

Okay, Otto, I see you don't want to acknowledge any of the points I made in my earlier post. I have already explained that I think she's referring to Patrick as the friend she hurt, and if you think she's admitting to killing Meredith it contradicts her other statements in the same letter claiming she is innocent of killing Meredith. It makes zero sense to look at it that way. Either she is claiming in the letter that she killed Meredith or she is claiming that she is innocent of killing Meredith. You can't have both those statements in the same letter.
If you think this is a confession letter, why wasn't it even part of the trial? Wouldn't this letter make it an open and shut case?