Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[SMK]

I wonder why now these critical articles come out and never before?

"Knox verdict leaves long list of questions"
http://news.yahoo.com/knox-verdict-leaves-long-list-questions-231521684.html

I had noticed the very night the verdict came , CNN - who up until then had been decidedly pro-Knox - ran a piece which read: Knox freed, but questions remain - and then went on to say we will never know the extent of her involvement.:furious:

 

[alwayslooking]

Good morning fellow WSer's, sorry for some of my posts last night!

The core of my problem with this case is, I do not like to criticize other country's legal systems, many other country's disagree with our DP....and I don't care about their opinion! I pray that she is truely innocent, my fear is that there was US pressure! When in Rome do as the romans!

 

[Celt1997]

I wonder why now these critical articles come out and never before?

"Knox verdict leaves long list of questions"
http://news.yahoo.com/knox-verdict-leaves-long-list-questions-231521684.html

Oddly enough a lot of those "questions" have been answered.

I see no point in arguing about what she told prosecutors early on (which is a bulk of the article), since we know there is no recording of it. She was not fluent in Italian, she had no lawyer, so, IMO, it is a circular argument because we don't know what she understood, and what she did not. The entire context of what was said is more than likely lost in translation.

The idea of a staged burglary has been discounted by the court because this theory has never been proven. The investigators never gave anything beyond their own personal doubts about a real burglary occurring. There was no evidence to show that everything was staged.

And the last bastion of people grasping at straws is that this article, once again, mentions her "cartwheels."

Sounds more like an article basing it's questions on things from 4 years ago, rather than the latest evidence.

 

[joe jones]

the English TV media especially Sky has practically canonised Amanda, they appear to have forgotten that she is still a convicted criminal, and she committed a dreadful crime by saying she saw another man commit an horrific crime and sitting by whilst he was arrested and locked up

he is lucky he had a solid alibi as he may have been unable to prove his whereabouts at the time of the murder and may have been tangled up in the trial process for much longer than he was

I hope she issues a heartfelt public apology to him,

 

[Footwarrior]

the English TV media especially Sky has practically canonised Amanda, they appear to have forgotten that she is still a convicted criminal, and she committed a dreadful crime by saying she saw another man commit an horrific crime and sitting by whilst he was arrested and locked up

he is lucky he had a solid alibi as he may have been unable to prove his whereabouts at the time of the murder and may have been tangled up in the trial process for much longer than he was

I hope she issues a heartfelt public apology to him,

When the interrogation session started on the night of Nov. 5, Knox was already in a sleep deprived state. The police had kept her up op until the pre dawn hours on every night since the murder was discovered. Ask your doctor about what happens when someone only gets 2 or 3 hours of fitful sleep for several days running. She was then subjected to a tag team interrogation that involved 12 officers. The police lied to her, falsely claiming they had proof she went to the cottage on the night of the murder. They suggested she had repressed memory and told her to imagine what must have happened. They also made it clear that Lumumba was a prime suspect.

Amanda was subjected to the same techniques that generated false confessions in the Norfolk Four case. See Frontline: The Confessions if you are not familiar with this case. Just hours after the interrogations ended, Amanda wrote a note to the police saying she didn't trust her memory of the events in her statements.

A day after Lumumba was arrested, the police produced a witness willing to swear that Lumumba's bar was closed on the night of the murder. Another witness swore that cell tower evidence proved Lumumba was in the area of the cottage that night. But as we now know, Lumumba never left his bar on that fateful night.

 

[mentalsolstice]

My husband and I were both LE, so that training came from home!!!lol they were always told not to say a word without a lawyer!:floorlaugh:

That's great you have this experience to share with your children. My dad is a former cop. And my husband is also a veteran, after seeing 14 months in combat. Fortunately, he came back all in one piece physically and emotionally. My grandmother and mom were social workers, and my career was focused on counseling people whose civil rights were trampled on, and victims of domestic violence and rape. Thus, I admire the way your family has given up a lot in service to this country.

However, that said, I have a different opinion regarding Amanda's gaffes with law enforcement. Perhaps her parents were not sophisticated when it came to dealing with law enforcement and did not raise her as such. Additionally, I can relate to her being an immature 20 year old (when I was 20 I had a disabling condition that precluded military service, so it was off to college for me). All MOO...I too appreciate the differing opinions that have been shared here.

 

[sherlockh]

I had noticed the very night the verdict came , CNN - who up until then had been decidedly pro-Knox - ran a piece which read: Knox freed, but questions remain - and then went on to say we will never know the extent of her involvement.:furious:

Maybe because the judge himself said that?

Translated this bit with google:

"This will remain an unsolved truth. No one can say how the facts are," said even the president of the Court. "The trend is difficult to reconstruct. The only one who could tell - he added - is Guede. But he has only said that he always thought that (the crime scene, ed) there were Amanda and Raffaele. But this does not mean that there. We will never know whether or not there were Amanda and Raffaele. "

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1

 

[SMK]

Positive reaction to Knox's freedom

Amanda Knox is no Casey Anthony.

A free woman today after serving four years in an Italian prison for a murder she insists she didn’t commit, Knox is more likely to get a break from the public, a sympathetic welcome home ... and probably a lucrative book and movie deal.
“People are relieved with this one,” said Emerson College professor Gregory Payne, who has been watching the case closely with his students.

“It’s almost like a hostage being freed scenario,” Payne added. “With Casey Anthony, she’s forever in — what I would call — rhetorical purgatory with O.J.”

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/c..._to_amandas_freedom/srvc=home&position=recent

 

[SMK]

Maybe because the judge himself said that?

Translated this bit with google:

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1

Ah, the president of the court being Judge Hellman?:waitasec:

ETA:I will admit, he seems to be back-pedaling from his stance of authority about "not complying with the prosecutorial request for life sentence" because "they did not commit these crimes"----yes, he is going with reasonable doubt only. Ignoring it will not make it go away. Thanks for linking this.

Although, LJ did clarify thus on JREF:

No judge or jury in the world could ever find that any given defendant is definitively innocent of a crime. But a 530.1 acquittal in Italy is as close as one can come to that extreme.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7644567#post7644567

 

[Madeleine74]

CNN, like all news organizations, is in the business of earning advertising $$$ and if they can get you to click on a story then ka-ching! Saying, "okay well nothing really to see here" on an article about a freed U.S. citizen is not going to garner attention. They want stickiness...they want eyeballs....they want people to debate and get into it because it keeps their stories alive and front 'n center. The media manipulates all of us and as long as we understand that we can get along just fine. We have to keep reminding ourselves that we don't know these people on the news...we only know what we're told and what we're told may not be entirely accurate (or even closely accurate).

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Maybe because the judge himself said that?

Translated this bit with google:

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1

What would Sherlock Holmes say?

Holmes says there is always an earlier similar case for starters.

Let's take Rudy's story.

Any scenarios involving Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito with Rudy would have no parallel in the history of crime.

Rudy's story of somebody else killing the victim while he sits on the toilet is ridiculous and I challenge people to name a sexually motivated homicide with a female ring leader.

And then there is the matter of the body. Meredith Kercher had at least 23 separate injuries on her body indicating that "she was attacked by more than one person, a court
has heard." That conclusion is incorrect. "Overkill" (inflicting injuries beyond death with the killing) is common in sexual homicide.

It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - Sherlock Holmes

 

[emyr]

I wonder why now these critical articles come out and never before?

"Knox verdict leaves long list of questions"
http://news.yahoo.com/knox-verdict-leaves-long-list-questions-231521684.html

Well, I suppose it's something that all news articles now seem to be hewing more closely to "it was a complicated case" as opposed to a cut and dry one.

Thought it irks me that this article says "So who staged the break-in?" Implying the only possilbe option is someone staging a break-in where Rudy actually stole from Meredith. Seriously, is it so hard to write that he could have just broken in?

I don't know of anyone yet, who believes in Amanda's guilt, who has said there is a 0% chance he broke in. (Though I am curious what percentage chance people here believe is the likelihood he broke in).

 

[sherlockh]

What would Sherlock Holmes say?

Holmes says there is always an earlier similar case for starters.

Let's take Rudy's story.

Any scenarios involving Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito with Rudy would have no parallel in the history of crime.

Rudy's story of somebody else killing the victim while he sits on the toilet is ridiculous and I challenge people to name a sexually motivated homicide with a female ring leader.

And then there is the matter of the body. Meredith Kercher had at least 23 separate injuries on her body indicating that "she was attacked by more than one person, a court
has heard." That conclusion is incorrect. "Overkill" (inflicting injuries beyond death with the killing) is common in sexual homicide.

It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - Sherlock Holmes

I will wait and see what the judges report says but I don't see how you get to the conclusion that this court rejected the multiple killer scenario? The previous court has stated that Rudy was the 'ring leader' so where do you get that Amanda was the leader? I believe the court accepted the multiple killer scenario not only based on the multiple wounds (from opposite directions) and lack of defense wounds, but also from witness statements such as Rudy and the 'scream witnesses'.

I don't believe all evidence was rejected. Even Hellmann himself now says the prosecutors did a good job to prosecute based on the elements they presented. Several other evidence elements were probably accepted, such as their lies about their alibi during the time of the murder (they were not on the computer, phone, or having dinner), and their lies about their early morning activities (they did not wake up at 10am, there was computer activity at 5:30am, phone at 6am, and seen at cleaning store at 8am). Of course, these lies are not enough to convict for murder.

They rejected the eye witness that saw them around 11pm near the cottage. They rejected the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, and the staged break-in. The footprints and mixed DNA traces were probably not conclusive enough to convict on.

So there is plenty of evidence that makes you go ..mmhh.. but there was doubt for these judges and that is the end of it. How they will explain the motive behind the 3 year sentence for accusing an innocent man is beyond me, because I see only 1 reason why she did that. JMO.

 

[sherlockh]

When the interrogation session started on the night of Nov. 5, Knox was already in a sleep deprived state. The police had kept her up op until the pre dawn hours on every night since the murder was discovered. Ask your doctor about what happens when someone only gets 2 or 3 hours of fitful sleep for several days running. She was then subjected to a tag team interrogation that involved 12 officers. The police lied to her, falsely claiming they had proof she went to the cottage on the night of the murder. They suggested she had repressed memory and told her to imagine what must have happened. They also made it clear that Lumumba was a prime suspect.

Amanda was subjected to the same techniques that generated false confessions in the Norfolk Four case. See Frontline: The Confessions if you are not familiar with this case. Just hours after the interrogations ended, Amanda wrote a note to the police saying she didn't trust her memory of the events in her statements.

A day after Lumumba was arrested, the police produced a witness willing to swear that Lumumba's bar was closed on the night of the murder. Another witness swore that cell tower evidence proved Lumumba was in the area of the cottage that night. But as we now know, Lumumba never left his bar on that fateful night.

I don't know why you keep mention sleep deprived state, because even the defense didn't claim this. How can you possibly know how many hours AK slept in a day? AK went to school, and she was doing her homework at the police office. How sleepy can you be if you are doing your homework? When her boyfriend dropped her alibi, I am sure this woke her up just fine. If you look at especially her 2nd voluntarily statement, this was filled with precise and accurate details. Nobody was sleeping there. She was convicted to 3 years for this. This is not a minor offense.

 

[OldSteve]

Now that Amanda and Raffaele have been found innocent (as opposed to not guilty) of the crime against Meridith, I personally feel that accusing them from now on is a violation of Websleuths TOS .

Is there a precedent here about that? What do mod's say?

 

[BaileyandBella]

My personal theory is that it was she that was there with Rudy. I think she was telling the truth that she had her hands over her ears while the deed was happening.

Why though...why would she be there with him, for sex? She had this new cute boyfriend.

 

[runsdeep]

i havent followed this enough to have opinion on guilty, assosiation or innocent. her reaction of experiencing he77 seems genuine, see facial scrunching compared to KCA with protruding lips and haughty expression.

 

[MrsWendy]

Katana you and I are on the same wavelength. There are too many things that make me go hhmmmm about this case, something is not right that;s for sure. However like you I do agree that there was not enough evidence to convict them. But I am in no way convinced that this girl was not involved. The fact that neither of them could tell the LE straight out where they were that night is extremely suspicious to me and if innocent you would stick to the one story...THE TRUTH. People above had said that they switched of the phones so they can have a "romantic" first night alone.....fair enough can understand that, but why then has the boyfriend in every interview I have read, say that he cant be sure Amanda was there or that she wasnt there until 1am.....

My personal theory is that it was she that was there with Rudy. I think she was telling the truth that she had her hands over her ears while the deed was happening.

From what I read in a couple places earlier this year, it sounds like he told the police that she was with him the entire night sleeping. But when the police asked him how he could be certain that she was there the entire night if he was asleep, he admitted that he couldn't be absolutely sure that she was there. The police then turned around and confronted Knox with the fact that Sollecito told them that she wasn't there the entire night.

So it sounds like the police used his admission that it was theoretically possible for her to have left while he was asleep as absolute proof that she left to commit the murder.

 

[SMK]

I will wait and see what the judges report says but I don't see how you get to the conclusion that this court rejected the multiple killer scenario? The previous court has stated that Rudy was the 'ring leader' so where do you get that Amanda was the leader? I believe the court accepted the multiple killer scenario not only based on the multiple wounds (from opposite directions) and lack of defense wounds, but also from witness statements such as Rudy and the 'scream witnesses'.

I don't believe all evidence was rejected. Even Hellmann himself now says the prosecutors did a good job to prosecute based on the elements they presented. Several other evidence elements were probably accepted, such as their lies about their alibi during the time of the murder (they were not on the computer, phone, or having dinner), and their lies about their early morning activities (they did not wake up at 10am, there was computer activity at 5:30am, phone at 6am, and seen at cleaning store at 8am). Of course, these lies are not enough to convict for murder.

They rejected the eye witness that saw them around 11pm near the cottage. They rejected the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, and the staged break-in. The footprints and mixed DNA traces were probably not conclusive enough to convict on.

So there is plenty of evidence that makes you go ..mmhh.. but there was doubt for these judges and that is the end of it. How they will explain the motive behind the 3 year sentence for accusing an innocent man is beyond me, because I see only 1 reason why she did that. JMO.

It is said that the Hellman motivation report will be highly critical of Massei's reasoning, and I believe it will be entertained that Guede acted alone.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

I will wait and see what the judges report says but I don't see how you get to the conclusion that this court rejected the multiple killer scenario?

I have not reached the conclusion the court rejected that scenario. I am rejecting that scenario.

The previous court has stated that Rudy was the 'ring leader' so where do you get that Amanda was the leader?

From Rudy himself. He said he was on the toilet while the murder was committed.

According to Rudy Guede, he had met Meredith Kercher at a disco on Halloween, the night before the murder, and they had agreed to get together the next night at her house. He claims there was consensual sexual contact and that somebody else came in and killed Meredith while he sat on the toilet. The defensive wounds to his hands are from his struggle with the real attacker. He says he tried to comfort Meredith but that in the end he reasoned that he would be blamed because he was black. Later that night he is seen dancing at a club. The next day he flees to Germany.

During lengthy police monitored phone calls while on the run, Guede first says he wasn’t there when the murder took place then admits that he was. He describes the first version of his ever changing story but never says anything about Amanda Knox being there.

As Mignini would have it, the crime was masterminded by Knox. She had, they say, manipulated her new boyfriend of a few days, Raffaele Sollecito, and local drifter Rudy Guede into sexually assaulting and killing Meredith.

I believe the court accepted the multiple killer scenario not only based on the multiple wounds (from opposite directions) and lack of defense wounds, but also from witness statements such as Rudy and the 'scream witnesses'.

Rudy is a discredited "witness" to say the least. How does a scream indicate how many attackers were at the crime scene?

I don't believe all evidence was rejected. Even Hellmann himself now says the prosecutors did a good job to prosecute based on the elements they presented. Several other evidence elements were probably accepted, such as their lies about their alibi during the time of the murder (they were not on the computer, phone, or having dinner), and their lies about their early morning activities (they did not wake up at 10am, there was computer activity at 5:30am, phone at 6am, and seen at cleaning store at 8am). Of course, these lies are not enough to convict for murder.

They rejected the eye witness that saw them around 11pm near the cottage.

Wasn't that the heroin addict transient who had testified in earlier murder cases as well? Why did the store owner wait a year to come forward with his story, when police had questioned him days after the murder? As for what time they woke up, I myself wake up, check my computer, and go back to bed in the morning more often than not.

They rejected the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, and the staged break-in. The footprints and mixed DNA traces were probably not conclusive enough to convict on.

The DNA testing was a joke. That's why it wasn't enough to convict on. An independent forensic review found no evidence at all that Knox and Sollecito were at the scene of the crime.

So there is plenty of evidence that makes you go ..mmhh.. but there was doubt for these judges and that is the end of it. How they will explain the motive behind the 3 year sentence for accusing an innocent man is beyond me, because I see only 1 reason why she did that. JMO.

<modsnip>earlier similar case in regards to Mignini: Douglas Preston, the monster of Florence case.