Meredith Kercher murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #3

[dgfred]

dgfred, you ask the same questions over and over, no proof (links, etc..)
whats the point

Well I understand you have no answers and are trying to deflect, but please show one instance where I have asked 'how she already knew what had happened to MK' when all she heard was about a foot? These things I ask are known facts... that is the point!

 

[Isabella]

Well I understand you have no answers and are trying to deflect, but please show one instance where I have asked 'how she already knew what had happened to MK' when all she heard was about a foot? These things I ask are known facts... that is the point!

I just wanted to say how much i like reading your posts that are always so factual and to the point..and how much i admire you for always keeping so pleasant to everyone when sometimes it cant be easy.

 

[Tizzle]

when police arrived at the cottage, they said they were there to discuss two cell phones found (they first said they arrived at 12:35 now they say 12:25) but heres the problem
(phones found in the garden) ...the lady found the first phone and took it to the station and left. her daughter (later in the day) finds the second phone. together (she and her mom) go back to the station with the second phone, according to the Micheli report (logged in police records) arriving at 12:46. By 13:50 both phones offically seized

so either the police showed up about the one phone in which case, why didn't everyone try to call meredith's phone OR the police showed up about two phones, in which case there would be no reason to try and call meredith's phone(s)

remember though,
only the daughter and mother, no one else, not even the police, knew about the second phone until after say 12:40

and dgfred, Amanda DID try and call meredith's phone... as a matter of fact, the daughter that found the second phone, found it because it was ringing... she picked it up and the caller ID said: AMANDA

does it really matter WHERE Amanda was when she called meredith's phone... the fact is she tried to call meredith several times

another problem:
Luca Altieri and Amanda both testify that the police had two cell phones with them. police asked amanda to write her friends numbers on a post-it.... Luca Altieri said he saw the two phones laying next to the post-it and made a remark to the police about them.

EXCEPT the Micheli report states BOTH phones never left the station

Amanda trial testimony:

LG: And what did they ask? To go into the house? Did they ask for information?

AK: No, I said "Look, come inside", because I was convinced that they were
the ones that Raffaele had called. I found it strange that they arrived so
quickly, but...

LG: And they told you that they were there for the problem of the cell phones?

AK: Yes, in fact, they told me that after I brought them into the house. They
showed me the cell phones and said they were looking for a certain Filomena.
And they asked me for the cell phone numbers that I had. I told them that
there were strange, strange things, but our communication was always kind of fragmentary, with Raffaele as go-between.
http://wildgreta.wordpress.com/tag/giallo-perugia/​

And here:

Judge Micheli said that some confusion was created by the evidence of Luca Altieri (Filomena’s boyfriend) who said he saw two mobile phones on the table at the cottage.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C343/​

but, during the trial, one of the police officers testifies that he, in fact, DID bring one of the phones...
so which is it -- was one phone, two phones or no phones brought

and another thing, during the trial, one of the police officers testified that no one, not even he, went inside meredith's bedroom... however, Luca Altieri testified that the police officer DID go in the room

The first witnesses to testify said on Friday that when Kercher’s bedroom door was knocked down, housemates and friends shouted: “Oh my God, my God,” before police ushered them out of the house.

Michele Battistelli, the first police officer to arrive at the scene, denied he had entered Kercher’s bedroom after the door was kicked in.

But a witness, Luca Altieri, said he had seen Battistelli bend down to lift a duvet that was covering Kercher’s body.

Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito said they would exploit this apparent conflict of evidence and that Battistelli might be charged with perjury.

“The contradictions show that the start of the investigation was a farce, things weren’t done properly and someone is lying about how the body was discovered,” said Luciano Ghirga, the defence lawyer. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5683711.ece
​

don't you see the inconsistencies - ALL stemming from the police dept.

the witnesses seem to have pretty much the same story... for example

from the Seattle PI:

Paola: "We asked the police to open the door but they said they couldn't so we decided to do it. Luca gave the door, which had a crack (a scratch, rotten part) near the handle, about four kicks and it opened. The room was quite dark but I was just able to see (just for a second???) a foot protruding from a cover.
"We then all went outside and the policeman entered the room.'"

Per Filomena: "The door of Meredith's room, at the moment the corpse was discovered, was broken down only by Altieri, while Sollecito was to the right of her, of Marco and of Altieri."

Amanda: "All I remember was that Filomena was saying a foot, a foot. I was in shock. I couldn't understand what was going on. All I heard was a foot, a foot. I thought there was a foot in her room." --from the Dec. 17 interrogation.​

my point is, Amanda is the one who got the ball rolling to begin with by calling Filomenia - why all of the DRAMA, seems unnecessary

and by the way, there was no testimony during the trial that amanda and raf were standing outside with a mop and bucket PLUS the two bleach reciepts weren't produced and the bleach in raf's apt... the housekeeper testified that the two bottles had been in the same spot with the same amounts since she started working there - one unopened and the other with a little missing
the clean up is a theory that never panned out

eta: the reason I said "that's absurd," notice how many times it took Paola to kick in the door - it was hard to kick in and why would you expect Amanda to kick it in --- I said the door "flew" open because according to the Micheli report, he states that the door "flew" open

Wow! Thanks, miley. :clap:You've done your research! Thanks for all your hard work and the hard work of everyone that are trying to give the innocent a voice. Keep it up! Our efforts don't always fall on deaf ears. Maybe not all, but people are listening and learning the facts, thanks to people like us that aren't afraid to speak out against the obvious injustice that has occured here. The railroad job here is so blatent, I'm almost embarrassed for my fellow human beings that don't see it. I'm confident that their appeals will have a much different (and, sadly, disappointing to some) outcome. Amanda and Raffeale are innocent, there is no other option but for their convictions to be overturned. No other option.

 

[Isabella]

Wow! Thanks, miley. :clap:You've done your research! Thanks for all your hard work and the hard work of everyone that are trying to give the innocent a voice. Keep it up! Our efforts don't always fall on deaf ears. Maybe not all, but people are listening and learning the facts, thanks to people like us that aren't afraid to speak out against the obvious injustice that has occured here. The railroad job here is so blatent, I'm almost embarrassed for my fellow human beings that don't see it. I'm confident that their appeals will have a much different (and, sadly, disappointing to some) outcome. Amanda and Raffeale are innocent, there is no other option but for their convictions to be overturned. No other option.

Because you have an opinion doesnt mean its the right one and that others are wrong. Sure you may think that it was a wrong conviction but many many think it was the right one . To say you feel almost embarassed because we dont see it..i just think is an inflamamatory comment...and again because you say there is no other option than the conviction to be over turned that is simply your opinion which in the big scale of things isnt important. Its the Italian legal systems opinion that is important and right now there opinion is very different to yours. As the Kercher family said after listening to All the evidence they had to come to that verdict. There was no other option.

 

[missyjane77]

Why, if these two are guilty of MURDER, aren't they spending more time in prison? Why aren't they spending the rest of their lives in prison?

Where is the evidence PROVING, beyond a reasonable doubt, that these two were directly involved in Meredith's murder? It doesn't exist from what I've seen thus far.

 

[Isabella]

Why, if these two are guilty of MURDER, aren't they spending more time in prison? Why aren't they spending the rest of their lives in prison?

Where is the evidence PROVING, beyond a reasonable doubt, that these two were directly involved in Meredith's murder? It doesn't exist from what I've seen thus far.

For many people there is plenty of evidence that these pair were directly involved in the cold blooded murder of Meredith Kercher. These include the Kerchers themselves who have heard ALL the evidence unlike us and in addition the Jury.

Secondly about your statement that if there guilty why arent they spending the rest of the lives in prison..in actual fact personally i think 27 years is a pretty appropriate sentence and is probably longer than they would have gotten in England for the same crime.

 

[kemo]

It is amazing that different people can look at the same set of "facts" and draw completely different conclusions from them. It generally is not that some are privy to information others aren't. The significant facts are well known. There doesn't seem to be a problem with the application of logic. I can't see any obvious flaw in anyone’s reasoning. The real cause of this "disagreement" is that we seem to assign different "weight" and significant to the same information. From what I see, the reason we seem to "weigh" evidence defiantly correlates directly with the trust we hold for the entire Italian system, particularly Mignini.

I can argue at nauseum about the DNA on the knife or the significance of reporting the break-in after the police arrived but it will mean nothing to someone who believes the police are likely to by lying, doctoring their lab results and falsifying their records.

It is reasonable that a magistrate would abuse the powers of his office to boost his ego and perhaps make money on a book contract. It certainly happens in the US. Would said magistrate be able to get police and forensic examiners in agencies not under his direct command to lie, falsify records etc and otherwise risk their jobs and their pensions? I'm not so sure. I certainly am not aware of any evidence that suggests he had this sort of clout.

 

[dgfred]

I just wanted to say how much i like reading your posts that are always so factual and to the point..and how much i admire you for always keeping so pleasant to everyone when sometimes it cant be easy.

Thanks Isabella. I've noticed kemo does the same too :clap: .

I enjoy civil debating.

 

[Isabella]

It is amazing that different people can look at the same set of "facts" and draw completely different conclusions from them. It generally is not that some are privy to information others aren't. The significant facts are well known. There doesn't seem to be a problem with the application of logic. I can't see any obvious flaw in anyone’s reasoning. The real cause of this "disagreement" is that we seem to assign different "weight" and significant to the same information. From what I see, the reason we seem to "weigh" evidence defiantly correlates directly with the trust we hold for the entire Italian system, particularly Mignini.

I can argue at nauseum about the DNA on the knife or the significance of reporting the break-in after the police arrived but it will mean nothing to someone who believes the police are likely to by lying, doctoring their lab results and falsifying their records.

It is reasonable that a magistrate would abuse the powers of his office to boost his ego and perhaps make money on a book contract. It certainly happens in the US. Would said magistrate be able to get police and forensic examiners in agencies not under his direct command to lie, falsify records etc and otherwise risk their jobs and their pensions? I'm not so sure. I certainly am not aware of any evidence that suggests he had this sort of clout.

Kemo i totally agree with your post. The thing is ok when already under investigation for supposedly wrong activities...why would he risk trying to frame someone for the murder? Why not just go for Guede which people would have accepted readily enough.

I personally think people have way too big a hang up on Migini and by blaming him for anything and everything it stops them looking at the very obvious facts that AK and RS could be guilty after all.

 

[Rosa Moline]

I've heard that Amanda's going to be sued by the police for libel/slander for stating in court that she was hit.
YET Patrick says he was beaten up and called "dirty black" by same police. No-one disbelieves him.
This whole thing really stinks.

 

[Isabella]

I've heard that Amanda's going to be sued by the police for libel/slander for stating in court that she was hit.
YET Patrick says he was beaten up and called "dirty black" by same police. No-one disbelieves him.
This whole thing really stinks.

No its not for stating in court that Amanda was hit.

It is because of the various interviews they have given where they have made what the Italians deem to be libel comments.

And who said no one disbelieves that Patrick was hit?

IMO the only thing that stinks was that Meredith was killed by Amanda Knox and her friends and then the fact that she had the gall to frame someone she worked for.

 

[Kaly99]

Check the "True Justice for Merideth" site under "Cell phone Activity". #5 covers it pretty well.

This site is obviously "anti-Amanda" but I think the information it provides is accurate.

Check friendsofamanda.org site under "Case summery" They acknowledge that Raffaele made his call to report the break-in when he did, They just try to argue the Postal Police actually arived latter. I find they arguemnt weak.

At the trial, The Postal Police stood by their claim to have arrived at 12:25. I do not know if the defense team tried to challenge this.

Yes, the defense team did challenge the arrival time of the postal police. There was actually a discussion about this on PMF recently (I lurk there, rather than post!) which proved pretty conclusively that RS called the carabiniere BEFORE the postal police arrived, and not afterwards. At least, I can't see any flaws in the logic here.

The arrival time was worked out using cell phone records and the time stamps on a CCTV camera which recorded the arrival times both of the postal police (seen driving up and down the street at 12:36 and 12:41, and approaching the cottage at 12:48) and of the carabinieri (seen parking near the cottage at 13:22). The cell phone calls were made at 12:47 (AK to her mother), 12:50 (RS's sister), 12:51 (RS to the carabinieri), 12:54 (carabiniere again, who asked him to call back), and 13:29 (carabinieri to RS's phone, asking for directions to the cottage).

The CCTV times were inaccurate, with the defense arguing they were 10 minutes slow and the prosecution 10 minutes fast. But by comparing the 13:22 CCTV arrival time of the carabinieri with their 13:29 phone call, it becomes obvious the CCTV time was at least 7 minutes slow, and most likely quite a bit more, since their phone call lasted around 5 minutes. This means that if the CCTV showed the postal police arriving at 12:48, their actual time of arrival can't have been earlier than 12:55, a minute or two later than RS's second call to the carabinieri (no wonder AK and RS were shocked when the police rocked up! Think I'd have been open-mouthed at their efficiency too...). One of MK's phones seems to still have been at the police station at this point, and it was activated at 13:00 - this is most likely when AK wrote down her phone numbers on the post-it note, and the police officer phoned them.

The poster on PMF also points out that no earlier arrival time works - if the CCTV were accurate and the postal police arrived at 12:48, they would surely have noticed RS making 3 calls within 6 minutes of them arriving; if it were 10 minutes fast, the carabinieri would have arrived at 13:12, far too early (and 17 minutes before they called to ask for directions!).

Links to the posts on PMF here and here.

 

[Kaly99]

Miley

I'm not sure if the defense still claimed that the Postal Police arrived after Raffaele made the 112 call. There would certainly be a great deal of testimony and cross-examination on the issue during the recent trial.

I did find a reference in the Nov 7, 2007 english edition of the web magazine "Italian Life" where they gave a translation of the statement Raffaele gave at the Police Station Nove 6th. They quote:

"Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she’s a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived. In my earlier statement, I told you a whole lot of rubbish because Amanda convinced me about her version and I didn’t think about the contradictions”.

Since this report came so soon after it occured, I think it is pretty credible.

The statement you're talking about was discussed on PMF too; on there it was translated as "[My sister] told me to call 112, which I did, but in the meantime the postal police arrived", suggesting that RS is saying the postal police arrived before the carabinieri had time to get there - not that the postal police arrived before he had time to call.

ETA: Just noticed the post I linked to above has the full Italian for the phrase you quoted: "Mia sorella mi ha detto di chiamare il 112, cosa che io ho fatto, ma nel frattempo e arrivata la polizia postale". My Italian is super basic but you can see the first part is 'My sister told me to call 112', the second part 'which I did', and the third, 'but in the meantime the postal police arrived'.

 

[Kaly99]

Well I understand you have no answers and are trying to deflect, but please show one instance where I have asked 'how she already knew what had happened to MK' when all she heard was about a foot? These things I ask are known facts... that is the point!

If you read AK's trial testimony (takes a while!) she says that after they all ran outside, the others were all talking very fast in Italian and she found it difficult to understand them, so she asked RS to ask them what they'd seen in the bedroom, and he translated what they said. That's how she knew more about what was found, although it was still a game of Chinese whispers - she was under the impression the body had actually been found stuffed into the closet with just the foot sticking out the door...

ETA: Quote from AK's testimony:

AK: Well, outside of the house, everyone was talking and crying, people saying different things, asking and calling different things, and they were mostly talking about what they had seen inside the room. I was thinking, a foot? What could a foot be doing in Meredith's room? So Raffaele asked certain people, for me, to explain what they had seen, and we heard that there was a corpse in the closet, covered with a cover, with one foot out, and that's the image I understood, that there was a corpse in the closet, shut inside the closet, but there was a foot sticking out. That's what I understood, but then it was all confusion...

 

[dgfred]

I believe if you keep reading the post at PMF that theory of the postal police arriving AFTER the police were called was squashed pretty well. Also in court the defense was not able to show where that is what happened... in fact just the opposite.

 

[Rosa Moline]

No its not for stating in court that Amanda was hit.

It is because of the various interviews they have given where they have made what the Italians deem to be libel comments.

And who said no one disbelieves that Patrick was hit?

IMO the only thing that stinks was that Meredith was killed by Amanda Knox and her friends and then the fact that she had the gall to frame someone she worked for.

No need to split hairs. I'm curious to know if the Amanda & Raf guilty group believe her when she says she was hit, given what Patrick has said.

 

[Rosa Moline]

And we all know why Amanda "framed" Patrick - because that is what the police told her MUST have happened because of that text msg, the fact that had found a hair matching a black person, the fact his cellphone had "pinged" in the area of Meredith's cottage that night. Imagine being frightened out of your wits with no interpreter or lawyer present with the police grilling you mercilessly for hours. It was THEY who suggested Patrick to Amanda & after hours of interrogation, she broke.

In her leaked prison diaries, when PL was found to have an alibi, she wrote that thank goodness he'd been released at least something was now going right.

 

[Isabella]

And we all know why Amanda "framed" Patrick - because that is what the police told her MUST have happened because of that text msg, the fact that had found a hair matching a black person, the fact his cellphone had "pinged" in the area of Meredith's cottage that night. Imagine being frightened out of your wits with no interpreter or lawyer present with the police grilling you mercilessly for hours. It was THEY who suggested Patrick to Amanda & after hours of interrogation, she broke.

In her leaked prison diaries, when PL was found to have an alibi, she wrote that thank goodness he'd been released at least something was now going right.

To be honest seeing as i wasnt there i dont know that at all. I am aware of what she said but im also aware that she is a liar and so her word means nothing to me sorry.

 

[dgfred]

And we all know why Amanda "framed" Patrick - because that is what the police told her MUST have happened because of that text msg, the fact that had found a hair matching a black person, the fact his cellphone had "pinged" in the area of Meredith's cottage that night. Imagine being frightened out of your wits with no interpreter or lawyer present with the police grilling you mercilessly for hours. It was THEY who suggested Patrick to Amanda & after hours of interrogation, she broke.

In her leaked prison diaries, when PL was found to have an alibi, she wrote that thank goodness he'd been released at least something was now going right.

Maybe she did break. BUT that does not excuse giving the 'gift' to the prosecutor in writing that in fact what she had told before was true... NO chance she was hit for that one and it was many hours after her first interrogation. So in reality the idea that because of rough treatment she lied and accused an innocent man does not hold water.

 

[Kaly99]

I believe if you keep reading the post at PMF that theory of the postal police arriving AFTER the police were called was squashed pretty well. Also in court the defense was not able to show where that is what happened... in fact just the opposite.

How was that theory squashed? Certainly not in that person's post - she says towards the end of the post that in order to object to Bongiorno's (RS's lawyer's) analysis, you either have to believe that: (1) the carabinieri parked directly outside the cottage gate at 13:12 (if the CCTV were 10 minutes fast, as the prosecution claimed at first), only to drive away again and circle the area for a further 17 minutes, before finally calling RS's phone to ask for directions; or that the black Fiat Punto and the two men seen outside the house had nothing to do with the postal police, even though it was accepted by all sides that it was them. The poster says either theory is implausible.

No one on PMF was able to come up with a timeline that contradicted the theory either.