Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[Linda7NJ]

Has LE given us ANY indication that she is suspected of doing this?
If not, she's a victim right?

So, she's that smart to plan the perfect murder in the perfect place? But, not smart enough to "keep a story straight" or to lie low?

Hey, I am well aware I could be wrong! I just don't think so

IMO That girl has her own aspirations and LOVES the media.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't care whose theory you choose to go with. I simply stated that the Mexican authorities certainly aren't in any hurry to get involved and the US can't. EVERYTHING you hear from either side is SPIN. imo.

I have common sense and no motive, no political aspirations and no reason to excuse the POOR POOR job of dealing with the drug wars & issues on both sides of the border.

Right, there has been a poor poor job on the border.
But, just because Mexico won't look for David and we can't does not mean TH is guilty of doing anything to him.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Until I see or hear of evidence that she did anything wrong, I will continue to believe she is a victim of a horrible tragedy. She saw her husband shot in the head.
His body has not been recovered.

I just can not imagine.

There is no evidence either way right now.

 

[monkeypants]

umm ok...so it was both

Authorities believe the death of an American tourist on a lake on the Texas-Mexico border may be a case of mistaken identity in a turf battle between rival drug cartels, a sheriff confirmed Thursday.

"It wouldn't be unheard of for cartels to do this and it's the way cartels work," said Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez, who is heading the investigation on the U.S. side.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39669630/ns/world_news-americas/

 

[Linda7NJ]

Right, there has been a poor poor job on the border.
But, just because Mexico won't look for David and we can't does not mean TH is guilty of doing anything to him.

True, but that isn't the only reason I reached the conclusion I have. "Her story" makes no sense to me. I do not believe her. If you want to know all of the reasons I doubt her story read my posts on this thread.

Day one, she said David was shot in the back of the head while she touched her own forehead. Her affect

 

[IzzyBlanche]

umm ok...so it was both

Authorities believe the death of an American tourist on a lake on the Texas-Mexico border may be a case of mistaken identity in a turf battle between rival drug cartels, a sheriff confirmed Thursday.

"It wouldn't be unheard of for cartels to do this and it's the way cartels work," said Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez, who is heading the investigation on the U.S. side.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39669630/ns/world_news-americas/

Interesting, Sigi says the exact opposite in this article dated the same day:

"My opinion is there is no mistaken identity," said Zapata County, Texas, Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr.

Read more: Officials, David Hartley's family hedge on theory of mistaken identity - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16343913#ixzz13VoMgEFS

 

[Kimberlyd125]

True, but that isn't the only reason I reached the conclusion I have. "Her story" makes no sense to me. I do not believe her. If you want to know all of the reasons I doubt her story read my posts on this thread.

Day one, she said David was shot in the back of the head while she touched her own forehead. Her affect

Because she was telling about the wound!
The exit wound is what she would have seen when she looked at his face.
She said brain matter was coming out. Brain matter would not be coming out of the back of the head if he was shot in the back of the head.
The bullet would have pushed it forward, to the front of the head.

 

[Ransom]

any idea how she managed to not get any <except for a small dot-which is what has been reported on her PFD> of his blood and brains as she has said all over herself?

seems to me if she was wrestling with trying to get him "back" on her jet ski she would be covered in blood...face, arms, hair, clothes and jet ski.....but nope...just a drop of blood whose dna has yet to be released....

Why would she have brains or other "matter" all over herself/water? The pirates (as previously reported http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr100110.pdf) are using AR15 or AK 47 = bullet in and bullet out is about the same diameter to the naked eye. There is no "matter" sprayed all over. The moment of death, the heart stops beating and the blood stops pumping. The movies, that people watch, sort of give a wrong description of what bullets do IMO.

I've shot lots and lots of elk, mule deer and white tail deer and there is never, ever "matter" sprayed all over the place. Entrance/exit is about the same to the untrained eye.

ALL of the above is just my opinion and my experience.

ONCE again want to state the Hartley's DID NOT cross into Mexican water's illegally. Already posted the FACTS on another thread.

The border, in the lake, is NOT well marked. There are several miles between the markers. I don't think the Hartley's ever disputed they were going to Mexico to see the old church?

 

[Intermezzo]

i have searched and searched so feel free to chime in with some links....but all the attacks I can find on that lake on the mexican side by the pirates all include robbery....anyone find anything where its just for jollies? or any that aren't a boat but jet skis?

I have not. Of the incidents that I have read they are of robberies, armed robberies and terrorizing American boaters when they venture across the international marked boundaries into the Mexican side, one incident occurred on the US side.
IIRC this is the first killing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/fishing/news/story?id=5207299
May 21, 2010
snipped

Three reported incidents since April 30 have raised concern among law enforcement officers in the Lake Falcon area. Two of the three incidents involved United States citizens who had gone into the Mexican side of the lake, passing the International Waters markers. Most of the incidents occurred in the Old Guerrero area, but it's possible that other areas are a concern as well.

On April 30, five people in two different boats were fishing on Falcon Lake and went to the Old Guerrero area, where they were taking photos of the old church. While they were there, a boat with four heavily tattooed men approached the two boats quickly. The men identified themselves as "Federales," but they were not wearing uniforms. The men boarded the boats, demanded cash and asked "where are the drugs?" The fishermen told the men that they had no drugs and were just fishing and taking photos. They ended up giving the men $200 cash and left the area. The pirates followed the two boats, but the U.S. boats were able to outrun them and the men stopped following once the two boats entered U.S. waters"

-----------------

 

[Intermezzo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052903707.html
May 30, 2010

"Dressed in black, the pirates brandish automatic weapons, carry radio cellphones and board the anglers' boats. They demand weapons or drugs from their captives, but finding neither, seem satisfied with taking $400 or $500 as booty, according to law enforcement officials and victims' accounts.

One group of pirates was savvy enough to demand the memory chip from an angler's camera, lest they be identified."

 

[Intermezzo]

Just for jollies?

Well, I think the Authorities said they could have thought David was somebody else.
I don't think this was "just for jollies" or a robbery.

I think they thought he was somebody else.

JMO

IIRC That theory came from the STAFFOR website first..then re-iterated by LE

 

[Intermezzo]

jdj125,
I'm asking again because I didn't see your answer... do you have information that TH refused a poly?

Also, TH has never been considered a suspect so what would LE have to move away from?

I'll chime in here. :innocent:
All we have from Tiffany regarding taking a Poly is a "Might"
I have not read that Tiffany said she would take a poly only that "she might" or "that might be an option"
There is no refusal by Tiffany to take a poly because she has never been asked to, by American LE and we don't know if Mexican authorities have asked?.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/08...utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_crime+(RSS:+Crime)

"On Thursday, Tiffany Hartley said she might take a lie detector test if people continue to doubt the veracity of her account.

If "that's what the authorities think I need to do, then that might be an option," she said when asked on CNN's "AC 360" about taking a lie detector test."

 

[Intermezzo]

You're right. She didn't refuse. But she certainly didn't say, "sure I will, hook me up, give me one now to end all doubts". She did give some long song and dance in response to the question.

I don't believe law enforcement even offered, it would be stupid to risk her lawyering up and shutting up....she has "diarrhea of the mouth" you can't shut her up. I can't believe LE believes her. Everything she's said, all the contradictions, can be used against her....if it comes to that.

Not that I ever believe it will go to trial, cause I don't.

I think she planned the perfect murder, in the perfect place.

I am still very much on the fence about TH..
bbm
If you search and read some of the details of the reported incidents that occurred on the Mexican side of Falcon Lake, namely near Old Guerrero on April 30 and May 2010 it may be possible.

I posted the links in posts just above this one.

 

[Intermezzo]

it was the sheriff that refused the mexican offer to come and investigate with them that said it was mistaken identity......

IMO it would not be safe for the Sheriff to accept the offer and go into Mexico to investigate...

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I'll chime in here. :innocent:
All we have from Tiffany regarding taking a Poly is a "Might"
I have not read that Tiffany said she would take a poly only that "she might" or "that might be an option"
There is no refusal by Tiffany to take a poly because she has never been asked to, by American LE and we don't know if Mexican authorities have asked?.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/08...utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_crime+(RSS:+Crime)

"On Thursday, Tiffany Hartley said she might take a lie detector test if people continue to doubt the veracity of her account.

If "that's what the authorities think I need to do, then that might be an option," she said when asked on CNN's "AC 360" about taking a lie detector test."

But from what she said, LE told her there was no need.
IMO she is not being looked at as a suspect so why would she need to take one? To satisfy internet forum members?
LE believes her. There are several articles stating that. Has there been any articles quoting LE where they questioned her account at all? They believe her.
Texas Gov. Believes her. He went so far as to say those questioning her should be ashamed. (paraphrased)
David's family believes her. They have said over and over they believe her. I saw David's Father and Sister on the Early Show this morning talking about the Mexican Pirates and border control.

Why would she need to take one?

 

[hollyjokers]

Sharon Rocha also publicly declared her belief in Scott Peterson's innocence for a few weeks after Laci went missing. By his remarks, the sheriff down there seems almost incompetent. If this is what we have upholding the law in border towns, it is truly frightening.

At this point, I don't know what to think about TH: who knows, maybe she really is a victim. Maybe she's just like a child who sees herself on a television monitor and is so mesmerized by her own image, she doesn't want to stop being on tv long enough to grieve for her deceased husband, or think about what atrocities were committed to his body to keep it from being found. Maybe. IMHO

 

[Intermezzo]

But from what she said, LE told her there was no need.
IMO she is not being looked at as a suspect so why would she need to take one? To satisfy internet forum members?
LE believes her. There are several articles stating that. Has there been any articles quoting LE where they questioned her account at all? They believe her.
Texas Gov. Believes her. He went so far as to say those questioning her should be ashamed. (paraphrased)
David's family believes her. They have said over and over they believe her. I saw David's Father and Sister on the Early Show this morning talking about the Mexican Pirates and border control.

Why would she need to take one?

You're right..because LE has not asked her to take a Poly why would she...she wouldn't and IMO she won't.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I wouldn't either. If it was just to please those who don't really matter to her and her life. KWIM
If everybody that matters to her and LE see no need, she shouldn't. IMO

If I had been through this, I wouldn't really worry about stopping internet chat either. It's just not that important to her IMO.

 

[kemo]

This whole case falls into a curious "no-man's land".

Unless Texas Law is broken, the local Sheriff has no jusrisdiction and no reason to do any investigation. This would include pay for a poly. If Tiffany is telling the truth, there in no US jurisdiction. No aspect of the crime occured in the US. The American Consulate will work with the appropriate Mexican LE anytime a American is a victim of a serious crime in Mexico. My understanding is that they secure the co-operation of the victim, they make forensic technology available, and, perhaps, they make sure the locals are "amply motivated" to pursue the matter. In this case, initially two brothers were identified as suspects. (although they sounded more like common criminals than Drug Gang members) Then a lead investigator on the case was killed and his head cut off. Was this related to the Hartley case? We don't know. Later, Mexican authorities report that they found no trace of either David or the jet-ski and Mexican fishermen in the area reported no sighting of any boats with three men in them as Tiffany describes. Are they covering for or afraid of a Drug Gang or the "brothers"? We don't know. Now the Mexican LE position is that they do not believe the attack ever happened. Obviously, there are reasons to be skeptical.

Sherriff Sig has one primary concern. Did Tiffany Kill David or it there otherwise, a murder that is on his turf? Presumably he has done "sniffing around". His job is political so it is unlikely that that he would acknowledge any "doubt" of Tiffany's story unless he really had something that would be made public. We don't know what he really thinks. Of course, if this all proves to be a hoax, Tiffany could be charged with the false report.

If there is a substantial life Ins policy and a claim is filed, that will be the point where a very serious investigation will begin. Tiffany will have to prove he's dead. I don't know what it takes to have someone declared legally dead in Mexico but that, in itself won't be enough. The Ins co will pay for a serious investigation in Mexico and they won't be interested in putting any Drug gangsters in prison; only getting to the bottom of what happened. If they do prove fraud, they will provide the impetus for the prosecution of David and Tiffany.

While I have expressed suspicion that this is all a hoax, I have no idea what the motive might be. Insurance is a possibility, I have not heard any report that there is any. While Tiffany seems to be enjoying her new career as a "spokesperson" for border violence awareness, I can't see that as a motive. And what about David. He lived in Mexico three years so he knows his way around, but he can't lay low forever. He may have some sort of identity change planned.

We may never know.

 

[sorrell skye]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39542072/ns/18424719

Vieira: Yesterday, you told me, Tiffany, that 'one of the boats came up to me' -- this is your quote -- 'and had a gun pointed at me, trying to decide what to do with me, and then they left.' How close did these people come to you? Can you describe them to me?'

Hartley: Honestly, looking at the barrel of the gun is all I saw. I was pretty focused there. I couldn't tell you what they look like. But they were within the length of my jet ski of me, which is about 10 feet."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/11/earlyshow/main6946795.shtml

Would Tiffany recognize them?

She told "Early Show" co-anchor Harry Smith, "I couldn't tell you. I don't remember, really, being able to describe or even kind of get an idea of what these guys looked like. Possibly, maybe it would come back to me, but I was more focused on the gun and hoping, you know, they wouldn't shoot me."

Suddenly, on October 23rd:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/25491607/detail.html

The pirates then turned to Tiffany Hartley.

"It was kind of one of those looks of, 'What do we do with her?'" Hartley said.


TYH has stated in several interviews that she is unable to describe her husband's alleged murderers because, according to her own words: "Honestly, looking at the barrel of the gun is all I saw. I was pretty focused there." And: "I couldn't tell you."

Question: If TYH was only focused on the barrel of the gun (according to her statements in several media interviews) and didn't get a look @ the gunmen, how is it that she suddenly claims that she was simultaneously able to not only see their facial expressions - but she saw these same facial expressions clearly enough and for such a length of time as to be able to interpret them?

According to TYH: "looking at the barrel of the gun is all I saw."

:waitasec: