Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[cmsg2002]

There's also no evidence he didn't lose his life. Zip, zero, nada!
No witnesses have spotted him coming ashore on his jetski anywhere. Nobody has spotted him wandering the streets of Mexico. If he's not dead, where is he? If the pirates didn't take his jetski, where is it?

Again...There is no evidence either way.

Kim, my original post stated there was "no evidence either way"

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Kim, my original post stated there was "no evidence either way"

I understand that. I added my thoughts to your post.

 

[hollyblue]

That has nothing to do with what I posted and bolded.
The portion I bolded said: many cases of violent crime are never resolved by Mexican law enforcement.

It's a fact.

I agree. I will find the video of Sigi saying they were given a boat to help LE, but refuse to use it (for years) because of fear of being shot. Apparently, in Brownsville, the boats they have....some have bullet holes in them. So....conclusion the US LE is not THAT eager to delve into any investigations either or patrol even our side. Conclusion: Stay the hedes out of MX unless your willing to deal with violence on your own and handling any consequences in doing so. It's a no brainer.

But, the majority of these US citizens were "in" with the bad boys in some way. With the economy the way it is....I'd further guess, that it's feaseable that more will jump at bad opportunies as well as the greedy ones who just think they will make money from illegal deals...although not really "needing" it. It's just a business opportunity. This is what I mean by Tiffany not understanding the socio-economics and the many ways this has tentacles into the US and other areas. It's not just people wanting drugs.

All of the above articles you posted are valid in proving the violence there, but it's not proving what happened in DH's case. Just because something is probable does not make it fact. That why most of time...an investigation is done.

JMO

ETA: Here's the video of Sheriff Sigi : [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4P1s6gkOs[/ame]

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I agree. I will find the video of Sigi saying they were given a boat to help LE, but refuse to use it (for years) because of fear of being shot. Apparently, in Brownsville, the boats they have....some have bullet holes in them. So....conclusion the US LE is not THAT eager to delve into any investigations either or patrol even our side. Conclusion: Stay the hedes out of MX unless your willing to deal with violence on your own and handling any consequences in doing so. It's a no brainer.

But, the majority of these US citizens were "in" with the bad boys in some way. With the economy the way it is....I'd further guess, that it's feaseable that more will jump at bad opportunies as well as the greedy ones who just think they will make money from illegal deals...although not really "needing" it. It's just a business opportunity. This is what I mean by Tiffany not understanding the socio-economics and the many ways this has tentacles into the US and other areas. It's not just people wanting drugs.

All of the above articles you posted are valid in proving the violence there, but it's not proving what happened in DH's case. Just because something is probable does not make it fact. That why most of time...an investigation is done.
JMO

ETA: Here's the video of Sheriff Sigi : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4P1s6gkOs

BBM - There ARE NO facts being released in the DH case as of right now.
I'm trying to bring forth facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there. I never said my links prove what happened in DH's case. There are no links that prove that at the time.

We have been asked to keep conversation factutal. That's what I aim to do.

 

[fran]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/student-becomes-fifth-us-citizen-killed-in-mexico-this-week/

Student Becomes Fifth US Citizen Killed in Mexico This Week


<<<<<<<<<<<<<,article at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[hollyblue]

BBM - There ARE NO facts being released in the DH case as of right now.
I'm trying to bring forth facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there. I never said my links prove what happened in DH's case. There are no links that prove that at the time.

We have been asked to keep conversation factutal. That's what I aim to do.

I'm confused. I never stated your links proved anything in DH's case...??

BBM How can you when you just mentioned prior to that.. that there ARE NO facts being released in DH's case? If you have no facts to relate this incident to.....you have nothing but speculation. Right?

It's only speculation and alleged at this point that DH was murdered. Only one witness to that allegation as well. Until investigated and proven, we're both only speculating. No one has confessed, no one has been arrested, nor has anyone been named a suspect or POI, formally. Even if the cartel took responsibility, they haven't produced the evidence of the perps. ? Since this happened in Mexico, I can't understand why Sigi has any say in it....it's an international problem that the feds (ATF, FBI,) are in charge of...on our side of the border. She only reported it to him because where she landed was in his jurisdiction.

We have facts of them being stopped. We have facts of them having lunch and we have facts TH was on the lake, seen with a boat behind her as she came to land on US soil. Other facts: her jet ski..nor TH herself were hit with any bullets. I'm not certain if the test results came back from the lab saying it was in fact David's blood on her vest, but even that could have been from a prior time. So were back to square one.... there is no proof in either of our speculations. I hope were both waiting on the investigation for those answers, but we haven't heard anything from the US on that either lately. Are they still investigating? If not, I'll move on to another case and send my prayers and thoughts to DH's family and friends for this tragedy.. hoping they find some kind of peace and solace among themselves in trying to find answers.

Unless something is gleaned from something, somewhere, or somebody it's fruitless. All the evidence was on Tiffany or in her possession and they let some of that go without proper testing. IE: her swim suit, water mocs, if she had them, etc. Even her hair and jewelry could have contained remnants of blood since she was in the water with him. Traces of it in the seams of her clothing as well as the jet ski.

We may never know. :waitasec:

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I said: facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there

And yes, we may never know. So I guess TH may have to deal with being blamed the rest of her life. I think that is sad.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

All of the above articles you posted are valid in proving the violence there, but it's not proving what happened in DH's case. Just because something is probable does not make it fact. That why most of time...an investigation is done.

JMO

BBM - There ARE NO facts being released in the DH case as of right now.
I'm trying to bring forth facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there. I never said my links prove what happened in DH's case. There are no links that prove that at the time.

We have been asked to keep conversation factutal. That's what I aim to do.

I'm confused. I never stated your links proved anything in DH's case...??

I was responding to the snipped part of your post above.

 

[Intermezzo]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...mexico_is_found_dead_in_trunk_of_torched.html

Canadian businessman who disappeared in Mexico is found dead in trunk of torched rental car

Snipped:
A Canadian businessman who vanished in Mexico for over a week has been found dead in the trunk of his torched rental car, and his family says he was executed.

Daniel Dion, 51, was traveling near Acapulco on business when he disappeared.


Also snipped:
In an echo of Tiffany Hartley's case, who has said Mexican pirates killed her husband last month while jet skiing on a Texas border lake, Dion's family says Mexican police have done little to solve his disappearance.

"They basically say to the family to do the investigation yourself," Dion's niece Franceska told the Montreal Gazette last week. "This is completely unacceptable."



BBM - ***more at link***

Thanks.
Yet another Canadian killed in Mexico..Not sure how much news coverage the US gives to Canadians killed in Mexico in the past few years.
My condolences to the Dion family.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/F...+Mexico+says+feared+safety/3754906/story.html

15 Canadian tourists have been killed in Mexico since 2006
Mr Dion had a successful business in Mexico and had become well-known and well-connected figure...he had become increasingly wary of his own safety...
He paid his workers generous wages..He had an entrepreneurial spirit.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStorie...754906/story.html20101102/dion-mexico-101102/

The family also issued a statement saying they believed Dion had been executed by professional killers performing a "contract execution."

He was about to have some serious breakthroughs for business in Mexico. He probably stepped on the wrong feet or was a problem to someon," Shanny Bolduc, Diona's nephew and one of the family members who went to Mexico to look for him, told the Canadian Press in an email."
___________________________

May you rest in peace Mr Dion..you tried to make life a bit better for the Mexicans you employed...

 

[cmsg2002]

I don't think anyone is doubtful of the violence that is occurring in Mexico, that is not the issue in this matter. The issue is whether or not Mr. Hartley was a victim of a violent event. And other than TH's recitation, there is no evidence yet to support that conclusion, even if some believe the probability to be high.

 

[scapa]

I said: facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there

And yes, we may never know. So I guess TH may have to deal with being blamed the rest of her life. I think that is sad.

But many murders happen in Florida -- only one of them, as it turned out, had anything to do with the death of C Anthony. It is undoubtedly the case that thousands are dying in the Mexican border town, and that not only those involved in narco-trafficking are now among the victims. It's that next step, taking for granted that those murders NECESSARILY connect to this disappearance (not that you're doing this, Kimberlyd125!), that bothers me. It's a false syllogism:

1. D Hartley disappeared in Mexico.
2. Many people disappear and/or are murdered in Mexico by the drug cartels.
3. Therefore, D Hartley has been disappeared/murdered by drug cartels.

I'm not sure how we get to #3 in the absence of the usual sorts of detailed hard evidence required in a murder case (if indeed that's what we're talking about here), except by pure supposition, which I think TH's testimony pretty much amounts to for us (strictly IMO of course). And when I think about other cases in which a partner/spouse has disappeared under suspicious circumstances it seems to me that intrepid Websleuthers have rarely been so charitable. The difference is Mexico. But that takes us back to the logic problems sketched out above.

I hope we do know, someday. This case gees me up, for some reason. It's like watching someone make the same mistake over and over again, and telling her/him "NOOOOOOO!" and not being heard.

Anyhoo, off to work. Apologies for the ramble.

best,

s

 

[monkeypants]

I said: facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there

And yes, we may never know. So I guess TH may have to deal with being blamed the rest of her life. I think that is sad.

well, if I am TH and "I have absolutely nothing to hide" then I would be rerquesting a polygraph FROM THE FBI ONLY to finally clear myself and put the focus on border issues <modsnip>....that would shut up all the suspicions and her story would fade like all others

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40002521/ns/world_news-americas
Mass grave found near Mexican resort
Police recover 18 bodies near Acapulco after a YouTube posting announces burial site
msnbc.com news services
updated 11/4/2010 5:41:32 AM ET 2010-11-04T09:41:32

Mistaken identity?
Guerrero state investigators say they corroborated that the men worked as mechanics and had no criminal records. Investigators also say they could find no evidence linking the men to any gang and have speculated the group may have been targeted by mistake.
Hundreds of the men's relatives and friends have twice marched in Morelia to demand federal authorities investigate the case.

On Sunday, about 1,000 people marched to urge authorities to keep searching for their loved ones.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

But many murders happen in Florida -- only one of them, as it turned out, had anything to do with the death of C Anthony. It is undoubtedly the case that thousands are dying in the Mexican border town, and that not only those involved in narco-trafficking are now among the victims. It's that next step, taking for granted that those murders NECESSARILY connect to this disappearance (not that you're doing this, Kimberlyd125!), that bothers me. It's a false syllogism:

1. D Hartley disappeared in Mexico.
2. Many people disappear and/or are murdered in Mexico by the drug cartels.
3. Therefore, D Hartley has been disappeared/murdered by drug cartels.

I'm not sure how we get to #3 in the absence of the usual sorts of detailed hard evidence required in a murder case (if indeed that's what we're talking about here), except by pure supposition, which I think TH's testimony pretty much amounts to for us (strictly IMO of course). And when I think about other cases in which a partner/spouse has disappeared under suspicious circumstances it seems to me that intrepid Websleuthers have rarely been so charitable. The difference is Mexico. But that takes us back to the logic problems sketched out above.

I hope we do know, someday. This case gees me up, for some reason. It's like watching someone make the same mistake over and over again, and telling her/him "NOOOOOOO!" and not being heard.

Anyhoo, off to work. Apologies for the ramble.

best,

s

We are not talking about Florida. This happened in Mexico. That's why I provided a link for murders in Mexico.

I don't think we will ever know what happened because of where it happened.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

well, if I am TH and "I have absolutely nothing to hide" then I would be rerquesting a polygraph FROM THE FBI ONLY to finally clear myself and put the focus on border issues since ****************....that would shut up all the suspicions and her story would fade like all others

<modsnip>
I think as long as people that matter to her believe her, she's good.

JMO

 

[sdmike1974]

TH's latest morning television interview on ABC's GMA.
http://tinyurl.com/2b9l6oc

Not much news other than TH saying she is getting updates from the Mexico Consulate "every few days".

One point of dispute was ABC reporting she has "endured days of interrogation". Of course, TH pointed out once again that it was not an interrogation but rather a witness statement. As before she defends/explains the lengthy interview by alluding to the time consuming language barrier and slow translation process.

 

[Intermezzo]

We are not talking about Florida. This happened in Mexico. That's why I provided a link for murders in Mexico.

I don't think we will ever know what happened because of where it happened.

JMO

bbm
I agree.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't know if this has been asked... I haven't read through the forum and have not followed this case at all... except for when it first happened, but my first thought was the couple were involved in a drug deal gone bad? I didn't buy their excuse for going to Mexico... it has drugs written all over it. It's not an excuse for what happened... but, it happens all the time.

I'll feel bad if I am wrong, but this is just my opinion of what most likely happened. Girlfriend (wife?) isn't telling the whole truth because Drug cartels (of any kind) are nothing to mess with... so she blamed it on "pirates" that she didn't know.

 

[sdmike1974]

I don't know if this has been asked... I haven't read through the forum and have not followed this case at all... except for when it first happened, but my first thought was the couple were involved in a drug deal gone bad? I didn't buy their excuse for going to Mexico... it has drugs written all over it. It's not an excuse for what happened... but, it happens all the time.

I used to feel like you do.

But if you follow the 'experts', the notion of a drug deal gone bad has fallen out of favor. The experts I am referring to are "criminal profilers", "body language experts" and "statement analysis consultants" ... some of whom appear on HLN cable, or have blogs or have their own radio show.

The primary (but not the only) reason they are skeptical about your theory is it DOES NOT explain her flat affect during her many TV interviews.

 

[evergreen]

I don't know if this has been asked... I haven't read through the forum and have not followed this case at all... except for when it first happened, but my first thought was the couple were involved in a drug deal gone bad? I didn't buy their excuse for going to Mexico... it has drugs written all over it. It's not an excuse for what happened... but, it happens all the time.

I'll feel bad if I am wrong, but this is just my opinion of what most likely happened. Girlfriend (wife?) isn't telling the whole truth because Drug cartels (of any kind) are nothing to mess with... so she blamed it on "pirates" that she didn't know.

I don't think if you live on the border of Mexico you have to go into Mexico on a jet ski to buy drugs. I think if you need drugs you can find em on your side of the border. She does not strike me as a heavy user, however. I don't believe it was a drug deal "gone bad".