Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[Salem]

Hello Everyone,

Please stop bickering. If you can not post and stay on topic, don't post.

The discussion here is about David Hartley missing, supposedly shot by pirates. It is NOT about who feels bad about the opinion they hold.

We won't all be right and we won't all be wrong - doesn't matter if the focus is on David, where he is and what happened to him.

Please stay on topic. If the thread becomes all about you and your opinions, I will recommend the thread be closed.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't think if you live on the border of Mexico you have to go into Mexico on a jet ski to buy drugs. I think if you need drugs you can find em on your side of the border. She does not strike me as a heavy user, however. I don't believe it was a drug deal "gone bad".

I'm not accusing them of being "users." I think they were "buying" large amounts of drugs to distribute. I also don't think this is the first time that they've done this. It takes very little to make someone mad in that business. A simple miscommunication can get you killed ($$$). You make them feel the least bit uncomfortable... BOOM! You're dead.

That's just what I think happened. Like I said, I don't know all the finer details, but that makes the most sense to me. It seems that people think that the girlfriend (wife) is involved? Maybe she set him up? It really does not make sense that they let her go?

Oh well... that is really all I have to say on this subject... like I said, I haven't followed it at all... it was just my original thought when this story first broke. They were buying drugs.

 

[GrapeOne]

I used to feel like you do.

But if you follow the 'experts', the notion of a drug deal gone bad has fallen out of favor. The experts I am referring to are "criminal profilers", "body language experts" and "statement analysis consultants" ... some of whom appear on HLN cable, or have blogs or have their own radio show.

The primary (but not the only) reason they are skeptical about your theory is it DOES NOT explain her flat affect during her many TV interviews.

Her flat effect...I've wondered myself and the thought has occurred to me that she and her husband were put up to this by someone wanting to put more emphasis on the danger of the drug cartels by our borders. Would someone pay them to pretend her husband was dead just to bring attention to the issue? That would match of with her saying "my story" and her knowing he was "dead", etc.

I'm curious what happened to the picture they were taking? Do they have them? Were they possibly killed because the criminals thought they had pictures of them?

 

[Intermezzo]

Her flat effect...I've wondered myself and the thought has occurred to me that she and her husband were put up to this by someone wanting to put more emphasis on the danger of the drug cartels by our borders. Would someone pay them to pretend her husband was dead just to bring attention to the issue? That would match of with her saying "my story" and her knowing he was "dead", etc.

I'm curious what happened to the picture they were taking? Do they have them? Were they possibly killed because the criminals thought they had pictures of them?

bbm
If you mean the pictures they took of the church...
Tiffany clearly emphasized in, if not the 1st interview, one of the early interviews that she did not have the camera, no pictures, no evidence, no proof...no one asked her about pictures she made a point of saying that.

"They" were not killed because the criminals thought they had pictures of them..Tiffany is alive.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Her flat effect...I've wondered myself and the thought has occurred to me that she and her husband were put up to this by someone wanting to put more emphasis on the danger of the drug cartels by our borders. Would someone pay them to pretend her husband was dead just to bring attention to the issue? That would match of with her saying "my story" and her knowing he was "dead", etc.

I'm curious what happened to the picture they were taking? Do they have them? Were they possibly killed because the criminals thought they had pictures of them?

No, she does not have the camera. David did and it is still with him and the jet ski, or whomever has his remains. I've always thought that was why they were shot at - because of the camera and the jet skis. In other words, if they had been a bunch of men in a bass boat with fishing poles and lots of gear (and no camera or at least the camera wasn't the main reason to be there...) I don't think this would have gone down as it did. I think it would have been another regular robbery like the others that have happened on this lake. I agree with Stratfor, even though Tiffany and many others do not (she didn't know she shouldn't go over there, so.....:nono. It has been reported that David did not tell her everything - he was robbed at gun point and did not tell her because he didn't want her to worry :waitasec:. She seems rather sheltered to me. I really can't see them shooting them solely for their jet skis. Then why not shoot every fisherman who has gone over there and take their boat?? The camera, and the pictures David was taking, with the jet skis and Tiffany as booty? Yes. Especially if they are doing something over there they don't want known about (I'm thinking drug tunnel, or something similar). The lead investigator was there looking for evidence when he was beheaded. :twocents:

 

[hollyblue]

I said: facts that are related to this case in that many many murders happen there

And yes, we may never know. So I guess TH may have to deal with being blamed the rest of her life. I think that is sad.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't...at this point anyway, think that TH "did in" her hubby. Just don't believe this whole incident happened the way she has stated...nor that they went site seeing as the intent of the trip. Her "story" is a little over the top for me.

I keep coming back to the employment issue. Not sure how, but somehow it ties in. IMO

 

[hollyblue]

Snipped:

I hope we do know, someday. This case gees me up, for some reason. It's like watching someone make the same mistake over and over again, and telling her/him "NOOOOOOO!" and not being heard.

Anyhoo, off to work. Apologies for the ramble.

best,

s

LOL. No ramble detected....good explanation scapa.

 

[evergreen]

I'm not accusing them of being "users." I think they were "buying" large amounts of drugs to distribute. I also don't think this is the first time that they've done this. It takes very little to make someone mad in that business. A simple miscommunication can get you killed ($$$). You make them feel the least bit uncomfortable... BOOM! You're dead.

That's just what I think happened. Like I said, I don't know all the finer details, but that makes the most sense to me. It seems that people think that the girlfriend (wife) is involved? Maybe she set him up? It really does not make sense that they let her go?

Oh well... that is really all I have to say on this subject... like I said, I haven't followed it at all... it was just my original thought when this story first broke. They were buying drugs.

I think there would be evidence that they were drug dealers. There is no such evidence. On the contrary, there seems to be evidence that they were average law abiding citizens. <modsnip>

 

[dodie20]

Any time something like this happens, people start suspecting the spouse, so I'm trying real hard to believe this woman, but, there's something off with Tiffany. I know 'off' doesn't make her guilty of anything, but there still aren't any answers, & I think Tiffany Hartley holds the key. IMO, she has been lying. Why? to cover her involvement, is my guess. Her going on about them being adventurous & living life to the fullest, sounds empty, because taking pictures of an old church isn't adventuresome, & deliberately risking your life in a crime ridden area, isn't living life to its fullest. Neither 1 of them struck me as that dumb, brave, or hungry for adventure. Also, Tiffany doesn't seem to be grief stricken, traumatized, or in shock, IMO. just kind of bland. <modsnip>

 

[LolaMoon08]

I think there would be evidence that they were drug dealers. There is no such evidence. On the contrary, there seems to be evidence that they were average law abiding citizens. <modsnip>

A lot of seemingly "law abiding" citizens do things we can't explain all the time. One of the biggest drug dealers in my area when I was younger was the director and coach of a Pop Warner Football organization. He had a steady job... wife... kids. The reason he was never busted was because he only supplied drugs to his rich friends (and his brother was in LE). It stayed within their own little circle.

I don't put anything past anyone. Riding jet ski's to Mexico? Who would do that? Really? Something else was going on and I believe it involved drugs. This could have been their first run for all we know? They could have been doing the run for someone else for a little side money?

<modsnip> I just don't see any logical reason for them to ride into Mexico unless it involved something more than just a little sight-seeing.

 

[kemo]

Something that strikes me odd about this incident is that no reporter has really gone out an done a critical analysis of what really happened. Certain aspects of Tiffany's story, particularly the existences of the three "speedboats" on the lake that day seem verifiable.

If there is no "suspicion" of any crime having been committed in the US, then statements given to US Law Enforcement either by Tiffany or the "mystery witness" would be subject to the "Freedom of Information" act. There is no reason why American based reporters couldn't go down to Mexico find out what they can from local law Enforcement. Unlike the US, where NOBODY would EVER think of leaking information, I bet it would be easy to get people to speak "off the record".

If there were boats with armed men, as Tiffany describes in the Old Guerrero Arm of the lake that day. plenty of people saw them. Local LE may not know who they were; they may not WANT to know who they were, but they know if they were there.

If you check Google Earth, you will find that there is little development on the Mexican side of the lake except at the southern end, 25 miles or more from where David and Tiffany were. There are some lanch sites and there were said to be many of , what are described as "commercial" fishemen who used slow, "ponga type" boats. There are few "recreational" boaters. Three boat, capable of going at high speed, traveling together would stand out and would be noticed.

 

[Frigga]

If I was TH I would DEMAND a lie detector test, just to set the record straight for all of the nay-sayers and to take the focus off of me!

 

[dodie20]

1 more thing, about a LDT. If I was at work, & was accused of using the company computer to look at , or if there was a rumor, that I had slept with my married boss, I'd do whatever I had to do, to clear my name. Knowing I was innocent, would make me feel better, but it wouldn't be enough. Do you understand where I'm coming from? Id want to prove my innocence, & not just for vindication, but because a person's reputation is a lot of who he is. that's 1 of the reasons, we conduct ourselves in certain ways. We live our lives, in part, because we want it known, who we are, what we stand for, etc...I'm the most private person, I know, but I would not be ok with people thinking I had committed a crime. & that's normal. If I wanted people to think I was a thief, well then, I'd just become a thief. & it's 1 thing to say people shouldn't care what others think, but once you've been falsely accused of a crime, it's a different story. It's the same thing with bullying. I can tell my 8 year old to ignore it, because these kid's opinions don't matter, but that doesn't work. She wants the bullying to stop, because the things these kids are saying about her, aren't true.

 

[sdmike1974]

Dodie, what is the reference for this?

The exact quote is as follows:

“Me being a Christian and believing in God, I believe he lined all that up, he lined up the traffic stop, he lined up us going to Subway and having the Border Patrol there so my story would be supported by events that happened,” she said.

http://tinyurl.com/2d4vmdw

 

[Intermezzo]

No, she does not have the camera. David did and it is still with him and the jet ski, or whomever has his remains. I've always thought that was why they were shot at - because of the camera and the jet skis. In other words, if they had been a bunch of men in a bass boat with fishing poles and lots of gear (and no camera or at least the camera wasn't the main reason to be there...) I don't think this would have gone down as it did. I think it would have been another regular robbery like the others that have happened on this lake. I agree with Stratfor, even though Tiffany and many others do not (she didn't know she shouldn't go over there, so.....:nono. It has been reported that David did not tell her everything - he was robbed at gun point and did not tell her because he didn't want her to worry :waitasec:. She seems rather sheltered to me. I really can't see them shooting them solely for their jet skis. Then why not shoot every fisherman who has gone over there and take their boat?? The camera, and the pictures David was taking, with the jet skis and Tiffany as booty? Yes. Especially if they are doing something over there they don't want known about (I'm thinking drug tunnel, or something similar). The lead investigator was there looking for evidence when he was beheaded. :twocents:

bbm
In the first incident on April 30th on Falcon Lake the boaters/fishermen were robbed not only of money but in one incident the boaters had also gone to the church in Old Guerrero to take pictures and the pirates decided to take the memory card from cameras or the camera itself but no one was seriously harmed...

http://www.themonitor.com/articles/robbing-38763-cartel-zapata.html

The first incident occurred April 30 when five people in two boats were fishing on the lake and visited Old Guerrero, a Mexican city abandoned when the reservoir was created in the 1950s. The group was taking pictures of the church and other submerged buildings at the site when four heavily tattooed men appeared in boats and climbed aboard the fishermen&#8217;s vessels. The intruders claimed they were &#8220;Federales&#8221; &#8212; Mexican federal police &#8212; but had no uniforms, troopers said.

The men boarded the boats, demanded cash and asked for drugs. The fishermen handed over $200 to the pirates, who followed the two boats back toward U.S. waters but did not cross the border.

Tom Bendele, owner of Falcon Lake Tackle in Zapata, said he met with the fishermen after the confrontation. The men told him the confrontation lasted nearly 40 minutes and that one of the pirates had Zs tattooed around his neck &#8212; a typical identifier of the Zetas, one of the two dominant cartels in northeast Mexico.

The pirates let the group go &#8220;pretty much unvarnished&#8221; after the fishermen offered the cash, but the gunmen took the memory card from their digital camera, Bendele said."

 

[Intermezzo]

The exact quote is as follows:

“Me being a Christian and believing in God, I believe he lined all that up, he lined up the traffic stop, he lined up us going to Subway and having the Border Patrol there so my story would be supported by events that happened,” she said.

http://tinyurl.com/2d4vmdw

I remember reading that..God lining events up to support her story all happened in the US.. I don't question that..we know they were together in the US and that David was alive in the US that morning.

I am interested and concerned about what happened to David when they were in Mexico...

 

[JBean]

Podcast Interview with TH


It starts shortly after the Oakland officer story.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I have to give Tiffany credit. I don't think many grieving widows would be capable of beaming like this just over a month after seeing their husband horrifically murdered and fleeing for their own life amid a hail of bullets.

http://gaylekingshow.com/b/Tiffany-Hartley:-Were-Going-to-Find-Him/424203286165917146.html

 

[hollyblue]

Don't forget it will live streamed today at 2 today. Probably MST.

Link here:

http://www.bringdavidhome.com/

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have to give Tiffany credit. I don't think many grieving widows would be capable of beaming like this just over a month after seeing their husband horrifically murdered and fleeing for their own life amid a hail of bullets.

http://gaylekingshow.com/b/Tiffany-Hartley:-Were-Going-to-Find-Him/424203286165917146.html

One Jbean's link she found the whole thing a "hassle."