MI MI - Alexandra Brueger, 31, Fatally Shot While Jogging, Rose Twp, 30 July 2016 #3

[Shiressleuth]

I think because the facts overwhelmingly tip the balance toward guilt. I mean there's nothing I can see that supports his innocence, frankly.

Would you mind listing the facts that you consider indicate his guilt? For example, no alibi is not an indication of guilt. Placing him at the crime scene is an indication of guilt. If LE cannot do that then I don't think there is a likelihood of an arrest.

One thing just occurred to me is that if he was the perp, then he would have "inside information" of the crime - more than LE probably.

 

[Lilibet]

Welcome gitana! I’ve been on many threads with you, including a horrendous tragedy in your own family, and I so appreciate not only your attorney’s mind but your passion for justice and your heart. It’s a privilege to have you weigh in on this case.

Whether we agree or disagree with your point of view, we would all be wise to read your words carefully and think deeply and respectfully about your considered opinions.
Thank you for taking the time to be here!
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Yes it is. It is one MSM reporter's view that states no suspect. That's why I posted it. That was written by a reporter and that was their view at that time. And we are allowed to post MSM to back up our viewpoint.

Yes it is ONE reporter that is stating “no suspect.” She contradicts an LE statement from just a few days earlier that Wes IS still a suspect. You are certainly entitled by TOS to post an MSM reporter’s mistaken statement (and we have all seen inaccurate MSM reporting on cases), but it doesn’t back up your viewpoint. Wes is considered a suspect by LE and therefore by Tricia/Websleuths. There’s no point in arguing that a mistaken reporter trumps LE.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Would you mind listing the facts that you consider indicate his guilt? For example, no alibi is not an indication of guilt. Placing him at the crime scene is an indication of guilt. If LE cannot do that then I don't think there is a likelihood of an arrest.

One thing just occurred to me is that if he was the perp, then he would have "inside information" of the crime - more than LE probably.

I’m just going to post a portion of Gitana’s post that lists facts that make him a suspect. He hasn’t been found “guilty” of Ally’s murder, so to ask what indicates his guilt isn’t quite the right question to ask and will send us on a spinning merry-go-round of discussing word meanings.

LE may never have enough to arrest anyone, but they may know that someone committed a crime based on powerful circumstantial evidence. That is the case with the suspect in my signature case. And that may well be the case with Wes. We don’t know.

The “inside information” that Wes does not have is concerning the investigation, not aspects of the crime that only the perp would know. This is a perfect example of misusing words to start a pointless discussion IMO.

Gitana’s reasons for Wes being a suspect:

The boyfriend has been declared suspect by LE.

He has access to guns but lied about it.

LE has been UNABLE to verify his alibi.

LE states he has lied to them numerous times.

He admits he failed one polygraph and another was inconclusive.

He had the means, motive and opportunity.

Let me just explain, innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept that means the legal system - judge, jury, etc. - cannot treat him as a guilty person until the trial is over and the jury have determined him to be guilty.

It does not and never has applied to society at large or public opinion. In fact, people can be and are routinely fired for being charged with crimes, before they are ever convicted and they do not prevail in lawsuits against the employer for that.

So we are free to use common sense to come to our own conclusions. That's called judgment. An innate ability to judge situations and people based on logic, critical thinking skills, and our gut.

Yeah, what points to his innocence? What at all?
BBM

Mi - Alexandra Brueger, 31, Fatally Shot While Jogging, Rose Twp, 30 July 2016 #3

 

[Spellbound]

One thing just occurred to me is that if he was the perp, then he would have "inside information" of the crime - more than LE probably.

Oh yes, the perp, whoever it is, would have info that may or may not be known to LE. And a perp is not going to tell any of us here the truth, if he/she is the perp.

I notice you are now using the quote box when quoting, instead of your broken quotes. Nice. Much easier to follow now. Congrats on getting it down!

 

[Spellbound]

- deleted. Duplicate post

 

[Shiressleuth]

I understand what has made him a suspect for the last 2 years.

My question to Gitana is about the next (arrest) stage.

 

[Spellbound]

Would you mind listing the facts that you consider indicate his guilt? For example, no alibi is not an indication of guilt. Placing him at the crime scene is an indication of guilt. If LE cannot do that then I don't think there is a likelihood of an arrest.

One thing just occurred to me is that if he was the perp, then he would have "inside information" of the crime - more than LE probably.

Maybe you can/should reword your question? None of us, including a lawyer, can determine perp's guilt or what will result in an arrest. Although a confession probably would. That is up to a jury hearing ALL the evidence presented at trial. It could be circumstantial evidence or actual physical evidence, or a combination. Even Gitana won't have access to that.

 

[Lilibet]

Oh yes, the perp, whoever it is, would have info that may or may not be known to LE. And a perp is not going to tell any of us here the truth, if he/she is the perp.

Exactly. And to be absolutely clear, SS appears to be arguing that the fact that LE stated that Wes has no “inside information” must mean that he is not the perp. We all know that the statement by LE was only referring to the claim Wes made that he had inside info and that the FBI was involved. LE debunked those claims. But LE never said or implied that Wes had no “inside information” that only a perp would know. So to imply that Wes can’t be the perp because he doesn’t have “inside information” is an argument that carries no weight at all. The end.

 

[Spellbound]

An arrest will be dependent on what evidence can be obtained, and prosecutors will want to be sure it stands up in court. Here are a few examples of what they will be looking for before making an arrest:

You need sufficient evidence to prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt; how much evidence that is is going to depend entirely on the factual circumstances of the crime and what the jury chooses to believe (or not, as the case may be).

People have been convicted of murder based entirely on circumstantial evidence; others have been found not guilty even though they were ostensibly caught red-handed with the murder weapon and the body in front of them (literally or figuratively).

There’s no set amount or type of evidence for such cases.
.. .. ..
I am just going to assume you mean first degree murder (unlawful killing) and by evidence I am going to assume you mean what does the prosecution have to legally prove and physically provide ( I find it’s always helpful to be specific if you want a specific answer), because there are degrees of murder with the burden of proof and evidence being relative to each. The elements of First Degree are:

1. Willfulness;
2. Deliberation; and
3. Premeditation. First Degree Murder Overview - FindLaw

So, the accused has to have shown intent before hand , that they thought about it even planned it. Then you have the plethora of elements physical, circumstantial and otherwise of evidence that you’ve no doubt seen in movies,or on TV or maybe even read about, which encompass motive, means and opportunity.

This is when trace and forensic evidence kick-in .
.. .. ..


https://www.quora.com/What-evidence-do-you-need-to-convict-someone-of-murder

 

[Lilibet]

I understand what has made him a suspect for the last 2 years.

My question to Gitana is about the next (arrest) stage.

I’m not gitana, but I’ll just say that LE likes to have all their evidence ducks lined up in a row before making an arrest. They can know with a degree of certainty that there is only one person who could have committed a murder. But the District Attorney (or grand jury) can decide there is not enough evidence to take a case to trial and win. So LE does not want to make an arrest unless they are quite sure there is enough evidence to go to trial and win. They only have one chance to present enough evidence at trial to obtain a “guilty” verdict, so they aren’t going to waste that opportunity on a premature arrest.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Exactly. He could remain a suspect for years - no evidence and his status will stay as is. Only the opinion he is lying is all LE have IMO. I hope LE get more so they can charge him. Hence my question to Gitana.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Exactly. And to be absolutely clear, SS appears to be arguing that the fact that LE stated that Wes has no “inside information” must mean that he is not the perp. We all know that the statement by LE was only referring to the claim Wes made that he had inside info and that the FBI was involved. LE debunked those claims. But LE never said or implied that Wes had no “inside information” that only a perp would know. So to imply that Wes can’t be the perp because he doesn’t have “inside information” is an argument that carries no weight at all. The end.

Absolutely! And LE is not going to divulge what evidence they have (or don't) because there might be things they have or know that only the killer would know. An example in this case is what, specifically, was found at the crime scene that led LE to consider that Ally likely knew her killer. We can speculate and wonder about what was found all we want, but LE is not going to tell the public what they found at the crime scene.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Would you mind listing the facts that you consider indicate his guilt? For example, no alibi is not an indication of guilt. Placing him at the crime scene is an indication of guilt. If LE cannot do that then I don't think there is a likelihood of an arrest.

One thing just occurred to me is that if he was the perp, then he would have "inside information" of the crime - more than LE probably.

Granted, we're not law enforcement. We don't and can't know everything.

There are also facts available to us that point away from Weston as a suspect. I cannot possibly list all pros/cons here. Multiple threads here that do that already.

Why it's reasonable to discuss Wes as a suspect in this case:

• “He’s a suspect in this incident,” said Michigan State Police First Lt. Michael Shaw in March 2018.

• How many polygraph tests has he "probably" failed, again? At least two.

• Shaw said, “Sutherland, still a suspect, has no inside information on this investigation and the FBI is not involved.” Wes lied. And he's still a suspect. That's as good a reason as any to actually, actively discuss him as a suspect.

• The parents have openly been ruled out as suspects at this time, per LE. Let's talk about a better suspect (theoretically or otherwise) if you believe it isn't Wes.

• Weston Sutherland has openly and repeatedly contradicted himself and the facts of this case within this thread, to the public and to law enforcement.

• His nonverbal cues and body language in this interview. (and to quote @Spellbound's post #879: "At time-mark 1:27, MSP Lt. Shaw speaks, says Wes is a suspect in this instance!")

• According to police, Ally likely knew/recognized her attacker. "I think it would be irresponsible to say that it couldn't be random because it's a possibility, but I think from what we've found on scene and some of our gut instincts, and past incidents, she knew who her attacker was," MSP Lt. Michael Shaw said. (That narrows the list somewhat if LE also don't consider the parents suspects at this time, yeah?) Also: "The police from the get-go thought it was somebody she knew," Nikki said.

• There is still no solid evidence that Weston and Ally were near as committed or romantically involved at the time of her death as Weston has claimed. — “At the time of her murder, she was just friends with Wes and his fabrications of marriage need to end,” Nikki said. Here, MSM calls Wes the "self-proclaimed boyfriend." Also: “At the time of her murder, Ally was planning an August 2016 trip to Florida to visit a guy she had casually dated several years ago,” Nikki said. “I have a pile of clothes she purchased for that trip with the tags still attached.”

• Weston Sutherland participated in discussing this case when it furthered his own narrative and, in the process, often contradicted himself.

 

[Tricia]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. No, no one can access another member's private messages (other than maybe Tricia and maybe other moderators).

Afaik we can't delete them. If anyone has harassing or threatening private messages from our former VI I would recommend telling Tricia about it..

Please report any conversation where someone is threatening you. The report button in a conversation is in the bottom left-hand corner. It's pretty small. Or feel free to email me at [email protected]

There is absolutely no way I can or anyone else can access private messages aka conversations. The ONLY people who can see them are the people in the conversation.

If we allowed members to edit their conversations after they had been sent then all hell could break loose.

If we had a heated conversation between members and let's say one of those members violated TOS by saying horrible things in this conversation then this person could remove the offensive language before it's even reported.

You have to think when you write and send a conversation on Websleuths as being just like an email. You can't edit your emails after you send them right?


The only way anyone can see your conversations is if you actually cut and paste the info and send it to someone or they are one of the participants in the conversation.

Thanks,
Tricia

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. No, no one can access another member's private messages (other than maybe Tricia and maybe other moderators).

Afaik we can't delete them. If anyone has harassing or threatening private messages from our former VI I would recommend telling Tricia about it.

 

[Tricia]

I suppose it's possible that conversation posts or private messages could also be subpoenaed for court proceedings.

Absolutely yes they can be subpoenaed

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Exactly. He could remain a suspect for years - no evidence and his status will stay as is. Only the opinion he is lying is all LE have IMO. I hope LE get more so they can charge him. Hence my question to Gitana.

I like you, Shires, and enjoy and respect your contributions to WS. But I am confused by your repeatedly asking other posters to provide reasons/links/proof indicating their belief in Weston Sutherland’s guilt.

For one, what’s been provided already fills three threads. Posters are repeating themselves; law enforcement; MSM links; Wes, his posts, interviews and other interactions; the statements of a verified journalist in this case; etc.

You’re begging the question (a logical fallacy) by returning to the “innocent until proven guilty” statement over and over as an absolute truth, without consideration of the development of this case and the context of the given facts of this case.

He’s a suspect. We’re here to sleuth him. Facts do, in fact, indicate his possible guilt.

It’s also a logical fallacy to repeatedly pass the “burden of proof” to disprove your argument onto those who disagree with you (burden of proof reversal).

Certainly, I respect your dogged persistence and commitment to this forum and this thread.

To further this discussion instead of recirculating it, I truly appreciate any thoughts, opinions, links to statements and evidence you want to share further different theories in this case.

I'm eager for you to share your theories on who killed Ally, who might make a viable suspect and/or why, how the suspect came to possess the firearm and why he/she hunted Ally down as she ran from them. Please share your theories on what points away from Wes, too.



Edit: speeling

 

[Tricia]

Wes did not drive a light colored car when Ally was killed. His car was black and it may have been a Mustang or Chevy of some sort. Can't remember but yes, it was a black car.

 

[Tricia]

RSBM for focus

To the best of my knowledge, neither LE or Wes has ever said his vehicle did not match.

In fact, one of the many questions Wes seemed to avoid answering was what type of vehicle he was driving at the time of Ally’s murder.

At least one poster asked the same question about his brother and father, and that was completely ignored as well.

Even if he refused, LE might have been able to obtain a warrant to search Wes’ vehicle as “Police had grown suspicious of Wes Sutherland from the first time they interviewed him, believing he was lying and withholding information.” As for family members, it would be a different story, IMO.

One poly came back as inconclusive, and he failed another:
“‘They said that the first one was inconclusive, and then they said that I failed the second one,’ said Sutherland.”

As to his demeanor, there are a couple of things I noticed while watching the CWD interview (MOO):
1. It has always bothered me that he does appear to be upset (crying, red eyes, etc.) when he tells Chris Hansen how “extremely painful” to be looked at as a suspect, but not when he talks about Ally. (@4’12”)

2. It almost scares me that he answers “Absolutely not,” but at the same time nods his head when asked by Hansen “Did you kill Ally?” (@4’40”)

It has been confirmed (by me) that Wes did drive a black car at the time of Ally's murder. Just FYI.

 

[Lilibet]

Exactly. He could remain a suspect for years - no evidence and his status will stay as is. Only the opinion he is lying is all LE have IMO. I hope LE get more so they can charge him. Hence my question to Gitana.

BBM

Not having enough evidence to go to trial and having no evidence are two different things. We don’t know that LE has no evidence. We also don’t know that LE only has an opinion Wes is lying since we don’t know what he has said that is inconsistent with known facts. You are correct that he could remain a suspect for years.