GUILTY MI - Carnel Chamberlain, 4, Mount Pleasant, 21 June 2012 #2

[longtallcold]

Do you have any proof there is currently an arrest warrant for mom? Or is that police theory?

She may have been overwhelmed and is suicidal.

LE may have no case against AB if their case against him relied heavily on testimony from mom.

Until I see MSM indicating a judge has signed an arrest warrant for mom, her running from being arrested is nothing more than rumor, police theory and simply her running from the lynch mob demanding a public hanging or she be burnt at the stake......

IMO, all the finger pointing at mom from the other members of the family (aside from KC) is their own way of coping with their not reporting and their own responsibilty for what occured. It is the story of those pointing fingers... as it is in so many cases.

Who, in your opinion SAW or WITNESSES the abuse in the one month?

 

[Jacie Estes]

I was surprised myself when he said the BIA was running the show. I had recently taken a Tribal Law class and I still can't understand how they trumped the Tribal Police. I will gladly ask him on Monday and I will also send an email to my teacher.

I didn't think you were questioning me negatively at all! It is a good question. I do not live on a Rez so I do not know the ins and outs.

If I weren't so tired I'd pull out my Tribal Law books or at least Peavar's. Thanks for asking him. The information will be helpful to me in the future.

 

[ToosieJoie33]

I, for one, would prefer grandma NOT be sleuthed regarding why/why not go for custody..or any other reason. I am quite certain, she is living her own personal hell that I hope none of us ever have to live.

I can't imagine what this grandma is going through. It is obvious in the pictures and what TC has said that she loved Carnel and he loved and trusted her.

I can speak from personal experience here. My oldest sister has twin boys. She is a drug user and dealer. Her boyfriend, their father, severe alcoholic and abusive. I can't tell you the number of times I personally called Protective Services when I witnessed abuse on the twins. Protective Services would then schedule a time with my sister. By then, she had cleaned up and the scars she explained away. They really didn't care. We tried to take the twins and my sister is a master manipulater -- most addicts are. In the end, we chose to be an active part of the boys life. My older brother would get them up and ready for school. He made sure they had clean clothes and food. After school, he picked them up. On the weekends, my mom and brother would pick them up and they would keep them for the weekend. My sister threatened to kill anyone who took the twins away from her. She has broken my left ear drum and been violent with others. The system doesn't always work. When the twins turned 14, I drove an hr to pick them up and they came to live with me. Their father called the police and said I kidnapped them. The only reason my sister and their father (who spent 4 yrs in jail for breaking my sisters' jaw) wanted the twins was for the disability money and the medicine they were prescribed they sold.

So....as for the grandma, we have no idea if she tried to intervene or not or if she was like us, felt that she could do better by Carnel by raising him. Also, I read that she was very ill.

 

[longtallcold]

I appreciate every one of your input here, this has got to be one of the most level-headed discussions ive ever read on here, with differing opinions.

 

[longtallcold]

I can't imagine what this grandma is going through. It is obvious in the pictures and what TC has said that she loved Carnel and he loved and trusted her.

I can speak from personal experience here. My oldest sister has twin boys. She is a drug user and dealer. Her boyfriend, their father, severe alcoholic and abusive. I can't tell you the number of times I personally called Protective Services when I witnessed abuse on the twins. Protective Services would then schedule a time with my sister. By then, she had cleaned up and the scars she explained away. They really didn't care. We tried to take the twins and my sister is a master manipulater -- most addicts are. In the end, we chose to be an active part of the boys life. My older brother would get them up and ready for school. He made sure they had clean clothes and food. After school, he picked them up. On the weekends, my mom and brother would pick them up and they would keep them for the weekend. My sister threatened to kill anyone who took the twins away from her. She has broken my left ear drum and been violent with others. The system doesn't always work. When the twins turned 14, I drove an hr to pick them up and they came to live with me. Their father called the police and said I kidnapped them. The only reason my sister and their father (who spent 4 yrs in jail for breaking my sisters' jaw) wanted the twins was for the disability money and the medicine they were prescribed they sold.

So....as for the grandma, we have no idea if she tried to intervene or not or if she was like us, felt that she could do better by Carnel by raising him. Also, I read that she was very ill.

Well bless you and your family for NOT GIVING UP !!! for keeping after those kids! seriously! More people who KNOW whats going on need to step up!

The grandma was not sick, she went down south to care for HER mom (grandmas mom)

 

[Jacie Estes]

Tribal Law ruled in this case up until Carnel was found. It falls under the Major Crimes Act. The FBI was working with the Tribal Police.

Here in SD I know of 2 cases, both NDN on NDN, where murder stayed Tribal, these are within the last 6 years. One was a man who slit his wife's throat and killed her, the other was a woman and her female lover who killed the one woman's husband. People on the rez were PO'd that it stayed local with lower sentences.

The Tribal Prosecutor was wise to bring in FBI from the beginning.

 

[longtallcold]

Here in SD I know of 2 cases, both NDN on NDN, where murder stayed Tribal, these are within the last 6 years. One was a man who slit his wife's throat and killed her, the other was a woman and her female lover who killed the one woman's husband. People on the rez were PO'd that it stayed local with lower sentences.

I wonder if the difference is national media? Because they picked up Carnel's story the next day. peer pressure per se?

 

[ToosieJoie33]

Cubby, it was strickly my personal opinion -- no facts. What does LE stand for?

 

[Jacie Estes]

I wonder if the difference is national media? Because they picked up Carnel's story the next day. peer pressure per se?

It was explained to me as prosecutorial discretion and family connections. One of the worst cases of spousal/child abuse I had ever heard of was from the same rez and that was one of the few that went Federal. This was the rez I lived on and even though a gun was involved in my case, it stayed tribal.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Cubby, it was strickly my personal opinion -- no facts. What does LE stand for?

Law Enforcement, ToosieJoie

 

[longtallcold]

love you all ! keep fighting for Carnel!!!!

 

[ToosieJoie33]

Longtallcold - thanks for clarifying that Carnel's grandma is not sick. Someone had posted that there was a fight between AB and TC I believe and that Jaimee got mad at her mom over it and took Carnel as a punishment? Not sure, but I believe that was why grandma had no choice but to return Carnel to Jaimee.

Knowing what my mom went through, I can't help but feel bad for Carnel's grandma. I am sure she was constantly worried over him and did all she could to help him. I am sure she is blaming herself for not insisting on keeping him. If she wasn't here when all the abuse you went on, she had no way to step in and help.

 

[katydid23]

:thud: But it wasn't just "accusations" of pot. A report would have alerted authorities to take a closer look. A closer look would have definately been founded in the eyes of child protective services.

I think there are going to be some strong divisions within this thread that will differ between believing ALL of the adults in Carnel's life had some responsibility to ensure his protection, versus ONE person, his mother, exclusively bearing ALL responsibility to the absolute helplessness of all other adults in his life.

There is no legal weed. In the cases I have seen, children are removed from those households in which the adults can not consistently get clean urine analysis tests.

We already had one adult in this household who had failed court ordered urine analysis. So these weren't just accusations. They were already founded as defined by the courts, civil and criminal, in the months and years prior to this tragedy.

I will agree that many people failed poor Carnel. He barely stood a chance with all of the childhood turmoil he endured. But imo, Grandma was doing her best to raise him and give him a happy childhood. When I look at his pictures with Grandma, I see a healthy, happy, beaming young boy.

Sure, in hindsight it would have been great if she had wrestled legal custody away from her daughter. But as said upthread by an ex-social worker from MI, that is very hard to do. And up until a few weeks previously, Carnel had been in Grandma's care. So she did not know there was going to be this problem until right before he was killed.

If any adults failed Carnel, imo, it was AB and JC. Grandma and Uncle and Cousin treated him with love and raised him generously, and devotedly. In hindsight, they failed by not reporting her to CPS. But they did not yet know about the physical abuse. Sure, they MIGHT have known she was using pot again. But that would not assure that they would have retained custody. It might have backfired on them, and lost Carnel to them forever if she found out they reported her.

There is only ONE adult that witnessed AB's abusive actions. So imo, there is only one that should shoulder the most responsibility, besides the monster of course.

 

[Cubby]

I just wanna say as a random volunteer searcher for that whole weekend, this pisses me off! I thought on Friday was looking for a wandered off kid, then by Sat we were all pretty sure we were looking for a body, but for these people to ask for volunteer searchers and KNOW the crap they did and still have us search in random places both saturday and sunday was WRONG!

This just compounds the stuff they decided to "let out of the bag" about mom and the abuse AFTER THE FACT! I wasted my whole weekend! Cuz they never woulda let us search the house!

(((((((((longtallcold))))))))))

I understand your anger. Little Carnel deserved the dignity to be brought home either way.

I don't really understand the BIA (is that the correct abbv?) policy and procedures for issuing search warrants. Maybe Jaimee, as tenant, could legally give authorization for LE to a walk through and search the entire interior of the home at LE's request. But LE needed the search warrant for area's a tenant of the BIA would not have access to as part of their right as tenant? Not sure how to explain it, but I think renters have limited access to property for their use and enjoyment. A renter wouldn't necessarily start digging up their landlords property without the landlords permission and in this landlord is similiar to public housing?

Hope that makes sense, getting late here.

 

[Cubby]

I love you Cubby, you know that, but I drink every day - some may call or label me an alcoholic - but id never hurt nor let anyone else hurt my kid!

I love and respect you too, longtallcold. I could never ever say anyone who drinks daily is an alcoholic. I can only make that diagnosis for myself and I can only say, from experience, when an addict is in the throws of using, nothing comes before that drink or drug. Risks will be ignored -or minimized - as a result of being under the influence.

I can theorize substance abuse and addiction played a strong role in the circumstances which led to the choices or lack of choices, as well as minimization of the responsibility ALL the adults in Carnels life made.

 

[tunker2000]

I will agree that many people failed poor Carnel. He barely stood a chance with all of the childhood turmoil he endured. But imo, Grandma was doing her best to raise him and give him a happy childhood. When I look at his pictures with Grandma, I see a healthy, happy, beaming young boy.

Sure, in hindsight it would have been great if she had wrestled legal custody away from her daughter. But as said upthread by an ex-social worker from MI, that is very hard to do. And up until a few weeks previously, Carnel had been in Grandma's care. So she did not know there was going to be this problem until right before he was killed.

If any adults failed Carnel, imo, it was AB and JC. Grandma and Uncle and Cousin treated him with love and raised him generously, and devotedly. In hindsight, they failed by not reporting her to CPS. But they did not yet know about the physical abuse. Sure, they MIGHT have known she was using pot again. But that would not assure that they would have retained custody. It might have backfired on them, and lost Carnel to them forever if she found out they reported her.

There is only ONE adult that witnessed AB's abusive actions. So imo, there is only one that should shoulder the most responsibility, besides the monster of course.

I'm still a MI Social worker, just not a CPS worker anymore. I work in the field of Domestic Violence and the courts. I do believe that if JC was reported and she did figure out who did it, the grandmother may never got to see Carnell again. It is very hard to figure out if you should report a family member, because of the conflict it could cause in the family or loosing part of your family.

 

[katydid23]

I'm still a MI Social worker, just not a CPS worker anymore. I work in the field of Domestic Violence and the courts. I do believe that if JC was reported and she did figure out who did it, the grandmother may never got to see Carnell again. It is very hard to figure out if you should report a family member, because of the conflict it could cause in the family or loosing part of your family.

Thank you for your expertise. This is a very complicated and tragic situation.

We have many members here at WS who have reported very difficult circumstances with their grandchildren, and having to try and decide which route to take. Should they try and go for legal custody, and risk losing their grandchild forever, and worse yet, no longer be able to help protect them? Or should they do the best they can, holding their tongue, and hope for the best, while making sure the kids are fed and watched over?

It is a no win situation and very stressful.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I have now been up for 20 hours so I need sleep. Let's hope that Jaimee is alive and just away from the media tonight. Tomorrow, I do not want to hear that she is deceased, as well.

Just wanted to say the picture of Carnel in my sig looks exactly like one of my brothers at that age, belly and all.

 

[longtallcold]

I have now been up for 20 hours so I need sleep. Let's hope that Jaimee is alive and just away from the media tonight. Tomorrow, I do not want to hear that she is deceased, as well.

Just wanted to say the picture of Carnel in my sig looks exactly like one of my brothers at that age, belly and all.

Nor do I...but would I shed as many tears as I did for Carnel? Of course not! Do I hope shes off getting help for whatever ails her and allowed her to leave Carnel in that environment, of course I do. But, I won't for one minute pretend to care more about her needs than his!

HE WAS 4 - SHE IS 21 AND HIS MOMMY

 

[katydid23]

I don't think she plans to kill herself. JMO.