MI - Dearborn Officer Fatally Shoots Unarmed Man

[Woodland]

When more police arrived at the scene, a home in the 8000 block of Whitcomb, the officer was covered in mud, his uniform was ripped, and the belt holding his service pistol was loosened, Craig said.

“There clearly was some kind of a struggle,” Craig said.

Craig told reporters at the scene Wednesday: “This suspect has been a crime problem in this area. Local businesses were familiar with him.”

In addition to the probation violation warrant, the man was suspected of numerous crimes in the area, Craig added.

Detroit Police Commissioner Ricardo Moore criticized Craig’s comments.

“Because of ... Craig’s biased statement against the deceased suspect, this situation would warrant an independent investigation from the Michigan State Police, solely,” he said. “Craig should be trying to give the public trust in this investigation, as opposed to creating tension between the community and the police.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ice-shooting-dearborn-investigation/77882224/

No poster as yet is portraying the deceased as innocent of past crimes - The Detroit Police Commissioner has said the Detroit Police Chief has made biased statements towards the deceased as far as a struggle with the officers gun goes - that has not been determined as an investigation is not complete at this time.

The Commissioner is not equating his past record with why he was shot. Neither are some posters here.

If there is a post that one finds contrary to one's own personal belief - why not quote it and explain what you perceive as an incorrect opinion? One statement or view at a time rather than a blanket 'you're wrong and I'm right'?

Agree that everyone is losing - so maybe the halfway point can be met?

 

[Archangel7]

When more police arrived at the scene, a home in the 8000 block of Whitcomb, the officer was covered in mud, his uniform was ripped, and the belt holding his service pistol was loosened, Craig said.

“There clearly was some kind of a struggle,” Craig said.

Craig told reporters at the scene Wednesday: “This suspect has been a crime problem in this area. Local businesses were familiar with him.”

In addition to the probation violation warrant, the man was suspected of numerous crimes in the area, Craig added.

Detroit Police Commissioner Ricardo Moore criticized Craig’s comments.

“Because of ... Craig’s biased statement against the deceased suspect, this situation would warrant an independent investigation from the Michigan State Police, solely,” he said. “Craig should be trying to give the public trust in this investigation, as opposed to creating tension between the community and the police.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ice-shooting-dearborn-investigation/77882224/

No poster as yet is portraying the deceased as innocent of past crimes - The Detroit Police Commissioner has said the Detroit Police Chief has made biased statements towards the deceased as far as a struggle with the officers gun goes - that has not been determined as an investigation is not complete at this time.

The Commissioner is not equating his past record with why he was shot. Neither are some posters here.

If there is a post that one finds contrary to one's own personal belief - why not quote it and explain what you perceive as an incorrect opinion? One statement or view at a time rather than a blanket 'you're wrong and I'm right'?

Agree that everyone is losing - so maybe the halfway point can be met?

The overarching law would be Graham v Connor I believe and in the spirit of unbiased discussion, what the suspect did (criminally in the past)is of no bearing(unless it is known to the officer at the moment of the Use of Force and has a bearing on the officer's decision at the moment UoF is initiated)

I agree it is of no bearing and has no weight to the exact moment of UoF unless the officer is aware of that criminal history and it would be relevant to his reason for UoF.

For an extreme example,....if the officer knew of the suspect killing someone a second ago and knew the suspect was on his way to kill someone else when the officer began his pursuit, that could be knowledge that the officer had at the moment of lethal force that may have had a bearing and is knowledge from the past about the suspect.

What the officer can't claim is the suspect was shot while struggling because the suspect had a record discovered by the cop after the shooting event.

Even if the officer has EVIL intents but the use of force is objectively reasonable it is justifiable.
Even if the officer has good intentions but the use of force is not objectively reasonable it is not justifiable.

An officer's evil intentions will not make a Fourth Amendment violation out of an objectively reasonable use of force; nor will an officer's good intentions make an objectively unreasonable use of force constitutional. See Scott v. United States, supra, at 436 U. S. 138, citing United States v. Robinson, 414 U. S. 218 (1973).

Craig's statements have no legal bearing WRT the UoF in this instance.

His statement should have been the suspect is known to Police and no more.

 

[katydid23]

He said it’s unclear whether the woman corroborates the officer’s story. He claimed Matthews tried to wrest his gun from him as they struggled, according to two police sources.

When more police arrived at the scene, a home in the 8000 block of Whitcomb, the officer was covered in mud, his uniform was ripped, and the belt holding his service pistol was loosened, Craig said.

When the officer arrived at a nearby hospital for treatment of minor injuries sustained in the skirmish, a police source said he wasn’t aware the suspect had died, and that he asked whether he was OK.

http://www.detroitnews.com/news/

Another 'he went for my gun' defense. Sorry, but stopped believing this a long time ago - one can only sell me the same story two maybe three times. What is new imo is, the loose gun belt. If I hear a loose gun belt in another story though - will not believe this one.

In order for me to start believing the 'went for my gun defense' I would now have to be sold on 'all the black guys in America got together and agreed that if they were ever tackled by LE - go for their gun'.

Also, 5 gunshots will pretty much ensure death. Not finding the statement that the officer didn't know this man had died credible.

All jmo.

Why wouldn't you believe that a struggling suspect would go for the closest weapon? Statistically, about 8% of officers killed by suspects are killed by their own guns. So that is just the percentage that managed to GET HOLD of the weapon. How many tried to do so?

https://www.policeone.com/close-qua...Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/


Over a recent six-week period, a handful of officers from Rhode Island to Illinois had their guns taken from them after they allegedly were overpowered by suspects or inmates. In each case, the ending was deadly.

….

On March 11, a defendant on trial for rape in Atlanta allegedly overpowered a courthouse deputy, took her gun and killed four people, including two law enforcement officers. A little over a month later, a Providence detective was killed with his own weapon while interviewing a suspect at police headquarters.

Police in Augusta, Ga., killed an inmate who fled on April 21 after overpowering a state corrections officer and taking his gun, authorities said. Two days later, a man under arrest in Spring Valley, Ill., wrested away an officer's gun and beat him with it. The suspect then fatally shot himself, police said.


There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent.

 

[drjones]

He said it’s unclear whether the woman corroborates the officer’s story. He claimed Matthews tried to wrest his gun from him as they struggled, according to two police sources.

When more police arrived at the scene, a home in the 8000 block of Whitcomb, the officer was covered in mud, his uniform was ripped, and the belt holding his service pistol was loosened, Craig said.

When the officer arrived at a nearby hospital for treatment of minor injuries sustained in the skirmish, a police source said he wasn’t aware the suspect had died, and that he asked whether he was OK.

http://www.detroitnews.com/news/

Another 'he went for my gun' defense. Sorry, but stopped believing this a long time ago - one can only sell me the same story two maybe three times. What is new imo is, the loose gun belt. If I hear a loose gun belt in another story though - will not believe this one.

In order for me to start believing the 'went for my gun defense' I would now have to be sold on 'all the black guys in America got together and agreed that if they were ever tackled by LE - go for their gun'.

Also, 5 gunshots will pretty much ensure death. Not finding the statement that the officer didn't know this man had died credible.

All jmo.

Do you mean to say that only two or three times that you have heard of in your life has a person fighting with a cop ever tried to grab the officers gun? All the other times the police are lying?

re: all the black guys getting together... Do you know it is actually a very small percentage of the time that suspects resist arrest that they end up being shot? So I'm not sure why you would have to believe every black guy in america agreed to try to take cops guns if "tackled", if they did then the vast majority of them are not playing along...

 

[katydid23]

“They went in front of the garage (and out of view), and then I heard the man say, ‘Stop it! Stop it!’ Those were his last words; right after that, I heard five gunshots. Then I heard a police radio, and then a bunch of sirens.”

Family members said Matthews was recovering from a broken arm sustained when he was hit by a car Thanksgiving Day. He reportedly suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and was prescribed medication.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...-suspect-dearborn-cop-confrontation/77952184/

The repeated 'stop it' bothers me. Not something someone would say if they were busy reaching for a gun. Sounds like a submissive response to a gun being pointed at them instead.

Recovering from a broken arm sustained about 1 month ago?

Looking forward to more info.

There were plenty of reasons the perp might have been saying STOP IT STOP iT if he was struggling with the cop. Maybe the cop was pulling on his arms or hands or hurting him in some way while they were wrestling.

As for the broken arm, it didn't prevent him from running away and then engaging in a physical fight with the officer.

 

[Archangel7]

Never mind the fact that once again the shot victim was A PERP, that had committed a CRIME, was FLEEING, an officer, RESISTED ARREST, was FIGHTING BACK, and could have injured or killed the officer or bystanders had he gotten hold of the gun. So right here I have a problem with anyone portraying this person as innocent or harmless. If we are going to move forward and come to a middle ground between law enforcement and the black community we need to also get to the root of the criminal as well and stop portraying all of those killed as gentle, innocent, harmless etc. This is only my point of view of course. Everyone is losing here. Officers and communities alike.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Logic would seem to dictate that if one runs from police and fights with police there is a common sense sliding scale of evaluation of risk. The more you run and fight the police the higher the odds of being shot to protect life and affect arrest.

I have no concept or understanding of why the suspect is automatically given the benefit of the doubt when running, resisting and fighting with police in their lawful duties.

Profiling here of every police involved shooting is no different than the claimed profiling by police of suspects. Except for the extreme hypocrisy of course.

 

[Woodland]

Possibly you are judging American cops based on Ontario Cops. Lived and interfaced with American cops?

In my experience, if the officer doesn't control the situation totally and quickly either one or two things begin to happen. 1) the gun begins to come free from the holster. 2) the suspect will physically touch, hold or attempt to get gun.

I have had my belt almost pulled up to my armpits due to a suspect pulling on my gun coupled with the ground struggle.

From your post the prejudice is clear, however I don't understand the irrationality WRT this case specifically when there is no evidence.

Hmmm - you're assigning prejudice and irrationality to my view. Interesting.

Sorry to hear that you had your belt pulled up to your armpits during a struggle - was that every struggle? Or just one?

And fwiw, fortunately I do not and cannot judge American cops based on Ontario cops. Ontario cops aren't as advanced in what I see as combat mode yet - ask me again in a few years though.

 

[Irisha]

Looks like a justified shooting, in my opinion. He was a fleeing felon, running from an arrest warrant, fighting with an officer in a field, trying to get away. The officer had every right to defend himself, imo

I agree, I live in this general area. <Redford Township, pretty decent area of R.T .> I love the Dearborn area. I wouldn't go to Fairlane Mall anymore, but generally I feel safe in Dearborn. I also trust the cops. Not that I'm that familiar with them, had 1 driving ticket(rolling thru a stop sign, that's not how I roll) in Dearborn. I believe the police, troit is nuts:moo:

 

[Archangel7]

Hmmm - you're assigning prejudice and irrationality to my view. Interesting.

Sorry to hear that you had your belt pulled up to your armpits during a struggle - was that every struggle? Or just one?

And fwiw, fortunately I do not and cannot judge American cops based on Ontario cops. Ontario cops aren't as advanced in what I see as combat mode yet - ask me again in a few years though.

Must have missed the G20 when Blair was Chief.

 

[bluesneakers]

He said it&#8217;s unclear whether the woman corroborates the officer&#8217;s story. He claimed Matthews tried to wrest his gun from him as they struggled, according to two police sources.

When more police arrived at the scene, a home in the 8000 block of Whitcomb, the officer was covered in mud, his uniform was ripped, and the belt holding his service pistol was loosened, Craig said.

When the officer arrived at a nearby hospital for treatment of minor injuries sustained in the skirmish, a police source said he wasn&#8217;t aware the suspect had died, and that he asked whether he was OK.

http://www.detroitnews.com/news/

Another 'he went for my gun' defense. Sorry, but stopped believing this a long time ago - one can only sell me the same story two maybe three times. What is new imo is, the loose gun belt. If I hear a loose gun belt in another story though - will not believe this one.

In order for me to start believing the 'went for my gun defense' I would now have to be sold on 'all the black guys in America got together and agreed that if they were ever tackled by LE - go for their gun'.

Also, 5 gunshots will pretty much ensure death. Not finding the statement that the officer didn't know this man had died credible.

All jmo.

When the other police arrived on the scene was Matthews already dead?

I'm always skeptical of "He lunged for/went for my weapon" because we've heard it so many times and then the video shows no, that isn't what happened. I'm sure it happens, of course, but it will take more than the officer's statement to convince me.

I know officers are sometimes shot with their own weapons. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head though.

JMO

 

[drjones]

Archangel - If a person is resisting and lands one blow to your head, but it "rings your bell" even if just slightly - would that be justification for deadly force under the law?

(to be clear since I'm not sure everyone has had this happen to them, I mean that you are slightly disoriented by the blow, you are not knocked out but you are staggered a bit, maybe your ears are ringing, you are slightly confused... for the purposes of this example any of those symptoms you experience are minor but distinct)

 

[bluesneakers]

&#8220;They went in front of the garage (and out of view), and then I heard the man say, &#8216;Stop it! Stop it!&#8217; Those were his last words; right after that, I heard five gunshots. Then I heard a police radio, and then a bunch of sirens.&#8221;

Family members said Matthews was recovering from a broken arm sustained when he was hit by a car Thanksgiving Day. He reportedly suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and was prescribed medication.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...-suspect-dearborn-cop-confrontation/77952184/

The repeated 'stop it' bothers me. Not something someone would say if they were busy reaching for a gun. Sounds like a submissive response to a gun being pointed at them instead.

Recovering from a broken arm sustained about 1 month ago?

Looking forward to more info.

Like which hand was his dominant hand and which arm was broken?

 

[bluesneakers]

Hmmm - you're assigning prejudice and irrationality to my view. Interesting.

Sorry to hear that you had your belt pulled up to your armpits during a struggle - was that every struggle? Or just one?

And fwiw, fortunately I do not and cannot judge American cops based on Ontario cops. Ontario cops aren't as advanced in what I see as combat mode yet - ask me again in a few years though.

Watching the G20 scared me, thinking that was our future. But so far LE isn't as out-of-control here. I'm hopeful the outcome of Sammy Yatim's trial will lead to major changes.

It's an awful feeling to think "Carding is bad, but at least they're not shooting people." We deserve better.

 

[Woodland]

When the other police arrived on the scene was Matthews already dead?

I'm always skeptical of "He lunged for/went for my weapon" because we've heard it so many times and then the video shows no, that isn't what happened. I'm sure it happens, of course, but it will take more than the officer's statement to convince me.

I know officers are sometimes shot with their own weapons. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head though.

JMO

He was pronounced dead at the scene according to one of the articles posted around post #5 - not sure how long after he was shot that was though.

 

[Archangel7]

Archangel - If a person is resisting and lands one blow to your head, but it "rings your bell" even if just slightly - would that be justification for deadly force under the law?

(to be clear since I'm not sure everyone has had this happen to them, I mean that you are slightly disoriented by the blow, you are not knocked out but you are staggered a bit, maybe your ears are ringing, you are slightly confused... for the purposes of this example any of those symptoms you experience are minor but distinct)

In the strictest sense no, as the force used to answer the force resisted must be objectively reasonable.

Generally speaking, assaulting an officer is a grave undertaking WRT the law of the land and is viewed that way.

Given that it is viewed as an attack on society itself it could be said that given the boldness, viciousness and intent of the attack that it indicated complete disregard for society and posed a real lethal threat to the officer as he lost consciousness and/or possibly to others either nearby or at another location.
Remember the officer brought a gun to the event so technically every call can quickly become a man with a gun if the suspect gets your gun which is easy if you're unconscious.

So if certain conditions prevailed within the assault(suspect voiced his intent to kill or his actions were evident)or he had attempted to grab gun from holster etc, things would begin to shift upwards in the officer's mind as to level of force reasonable in that situation.

It's a hard scenario to write about without completely and totally setting a scenario and it's why much of UoF training is 3D screen scenarios, Hogan's Alley and live with paint or wax bullets.

 

[Woodland]

Watching the G20 scared me, thinking that was our future. But so far LE isn't as out-of-control here. I'm hopeful the outcome of Sammy Yatim's trial will lead to major changes.

It's an awful feeling to think "Carding is bad, but at least they're not shooting people." We deserve better.

Don't recall Blair receiving any high fives over the G20 - but it's up to the individual on how they want to remember what happened.

SY will define the next era of policing in Ontario imo. We'll see shortly.

 

[Tawny]

The broken arm plus his last words just caught my attention.

ETA: to remove comment that referenced the wrong thread

 

[bluesneakers]

Don't recall Blair receiving any high fives over the G20 - but it's up to the individual on how they want to remember what happened.

SY will define the next era of policing in Ontario imo. We'll see shortly.

OT: Were you here then? It was horrible the way they brutalized, abused and corralled people. I was afraid to go anywhere near downtown. Miller looked spent and miserable and watching him I assumed he would resign immediately after.

 

[bluesneakers]

The broken arm plus his last words just caught my attention.

ETA: to remove comment that referenced the wrong thread

I'm sorry you feel that way. I put time and effort into the first five posts, and every post since then, because this is an issue and situation I care about.

IMO "bait" would be something else, but ymmv.

^ This was in response to something that was deleted before I posted.

 

[Tawny]

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/68821429-story

Protest march in death of Kevin Matthews shuts down Michigan Ave