MI, Grand Blanc - Mass Shooting at Mormon Church, fire, 28 Sept 2025

[Charlot123]

Today It's close to $350,000
imo

LDS church member raises $300K for Grand Blanc Twp. shooter's family, citing Christian teachings

As the community continues to support victims of the attack on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Grand Blanc Township, one man has launched a campaign to help the suspect's family.

www.wxyz.com

It is amazing but they have to stop somewhere. Otherwise people will be interpreting it in a wrong way.

Also, it is not his parents' fault that the shooter inherited their genes but for sure they had access to VA for his drug issues. So they were in denial.

 

[OneLove]

It is amazing but they have to stop somewhere. Otherwise people will be interpreting it in a wrong way.

Also, it is not his parents' fault that the shooter inherited their genes but for sure they had access to VA for his drug issues. So they were in denial.

I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.

 

[angelainwi]

I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.

Do we know that he was unwilling?

 

[OneLove]

Do we know that he was unwilling?

No, we sure don't. I was responding tp the comment I quoted above that "THEY (his parents) had access to the VA for HIS drug issues".

I wasn't aware that parents of vets have access to VA benefits if their adult offspring have drug addictions. I've never seen that in any of the situations I've personally seen or any cases I have followed, nor in my social work jobs nor in my justice court work. That would be a very usefu benefit to know about and publicize more broadly.

 

[Charlot123]

I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.

Rehab, substance abuse treatment or dual diagnosis treatment are costly. But VA has all such facilities. Having been honorably discharged, Tom Sanford had access to such VA services. His parents should have been aware of it.

Indeed, it is impossible to make an adult grown up man sign himself into treatment, but his parents had a certain leverage there IMHO. First, when he stole items from them, them not pressing charges could have been made contingent on TS agreeing to seek treatment via VA rehab (as opposed to faith-based counseling). Second, if indeed TS was recently working for the family business, that provided additional leverage to make him seek help in a VA facility.

Why do I think that places like VA rehabs are potentially better than faith-based ones? Simply, the therapists and ministers in faith-based facilities are compassionate, earnest but many have been clean - or if abused, did not slide that deep down. The best drug and alcohol counselors come from the people who were serious ex-alcohol or ex-substance users. They ...understand and know. Nothing matches this personal experience. They may be very spiritual too, they highly rely on AA, for example, but mostly, if they managed to drag themselves out of own serious mess, they are of incredible help to others.

But, of course, the parents are behaving stoically and honestly and one can only empathize with their situation. Maybe it is more of a conclusion for the future. It seems that whatever pushed TS over the edge this time, worked very quickly.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/28/us/thomas-sanford-michigan-shooting-suspect

"In recent weeks, locals said, Sanford began behaving oddly – nearly running over a longtime friend with his truck in a seeming joke, asking a local political candidate questions about his positions on guns and then openly declaring his hatred for the LDS church."

So if you think of it, if the friend's reaction time were worse, Sanford's odyssey could have ended sooner, and he'd be jailed for vehicular homicide. The friend must be horribly shocked now.

 

[Inthedetails]

No, we sure don't. I was responding tp the comment I quoted above that "THEY (his parents) had access to the VA for HIS drug issues".

I wasn't aware that parents of vets have access to VA benefits if their adult offspring have drug addictions. I've never seen that in any of the situations I've personally seen or any cases I have followed, nor in my social work jobs nor in my justice court work. That would be a very usefu benefit to know about and publicize more broadly.

No, the parents couldn't force the VA to force therapy on their fully-grown son.

A 40yo man committed a heinous crime and nobody is at fault except him. imo

jmopinion

 

[Lilibet]

Indeed, it is impossible to make an adult grown up man sign himself into treatment, but his parents had a certain leverage there IMHO. First, when he stole items from them, them not pressing charges could have been made contingent on TS agreeing to seek treatment via VA rehab (as opposed to faith-based counseling). Second, if indeed TS was recently working for the family business, that provided additional leverage to make him seek help in a VA facility.

I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

No, the parents couldn't force the VA to force therapy on their fully-grown son.

A 40yo man committed a heinous crime and nobody is at fault except him. imo

jmopinion

Agreed completely. The shooter's parents are also victims.

 

[Knox]

I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO

Agree 100%, let’s leave the parents of this 40 year old man out of the blame game.

 

[nao]

Moo...war veterans often return to their home country with an altered mind state. There are a number of stories on WS recently that have deaths caused by war veterans and I am sure there a many that don't make it to WS. So in my opinion this issue is something the government could be more responsible for. When veterans return they should go thru de-sensitizing program instead of been thrown back into the regular population. There was the same problems at end of WW2......moo

 

[angelainwi]

I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO

I worked as an interventionist for 15 years. There are studies that show that it doesn't matter how you enter treatment. In some studies forced clients/patients did better than voluntary ones. I of course was hired because in most cases you cannot force someone into treatment. And then the treatment has to be GOOD to work. The VA programs leave A LOT to be desired. I stopped using them after bad experiences.

 

[Arkay]

Agree 100%, let’s leave the parents of this 40 year old man out of the blame game.

Absolutely, IMO.

This is not a scenario such as the Ethan Crumbley case, when he was only 15 years old, had already indicated certain troublesome thoughts of bloodshed, yet his parents bought him a gun and refused to take him home from school the day the guidance counselor recommended they do so.

THIS is a middle-aged man, married and a father. He had probably not lived with his parents for ages, as he served in the military, and again, he was a married man.

The onus is off his parents and I agree they are victims as well. We haven’t heard anything remotely implying that his parents were involved in this in any way.

An adult makes his or her own decisions, for good or evil.

JMO

 

[TMich6811]

Absolutely, IMO.

This is not a scenario such as the Ethan Crumbley case, when he was only 15 years old, had already indicated certain troublesome thoughts of bloodshed, yet his parents bought him a gun and refused to take him home from school the day the guidance counselor recommended they do so.

THIS is a middle-aged man, married and a father. He had probably not lived with his parents for ages, as he served in the military, and again, he was a married man.

The onus is off his parents and I agree they are victims as well. We haven’t heard anything remotely implying that his parents were involved in this in any way.

An adult makes his or her own decisions, for good or evil.

JMO

Ethan will haunt me for life. He was so greatly failed.

 

[Charlot123]

I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO

No one criticizes them. These parents are stoically coping with the situation. But since we can not change the past, it has to be a conclusion for the future. Faith-based counseling is no match for a serious rehab for an alcoholic and a polysubstance user.

I think that faced with the choice between jail and VA rehab, he’d choose VA rehab. There is no guarantee that he would not have relapsed after the discharge, and chances are, he would have. It takes many stints in a rehab to get clean. So no one can say that rehab would have been a salvation. It is a horrible struggle, and some parents are exhausted and admit to losing the battle. This, too. Sadly.

 

[iamshadow21]

The fourth victim killed has been named as Thelma Armstrong. Armstrong was a grandmother, so rumours the fourth killed was a very young child were false.

What we know about the Grand Blanc Township LDS church attack victims, how to support them

People from around the country are chipping in to support victims and their families in the Sept. 28 Michigan church attack.

www.freep.com

 

[iamshadow21]

It's the strangest thing.

I'd said earlier in the thread that I'd never heard of an LDS church destroyed by fire in modern times, but I was sure it'd happened.

I'd also been thinking a lot about the local stake centre I attended conferences at as a child. It was dedicated only months before Grand Blanc, and despite being on the other side of the world, had a very similar layout, with the chapel and hall central and offices and classrooms surrounding it. It was also in brown brick veneer like Grand Blanc, which was unusual given many of the churches locally of that era or a little earlier were painted white.

Last night, that stake centre burned down.

Mormon church in Sydney's west destroyed by fire

A Mormon church in Sydney's west has been gutted by fire in the early hours of this morning.

www.9news.com.au

Statement on the at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints meetin

We are saddened to confirm that an overnight fire has caused significant damage to the Hebersham meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints.

news-pacific.churchofjesuschrist.org

Really, the strangest coincidence.

No idea why, yet, but the scuttlebutt from my mum, who told me about it, is that it's probably electrical. Nobody hurt, thank goodness, since it was the middle of the night.

MOO

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It's the strangest thing.

I'd said earlier in the thread that I'd never heard of an LDS church destroyed by fire in modern times, but I was sure it'd happened.

I'd also been thinking a lot about the local stake centre I attended conferences at as a child. It was dedicated only months before Grand Blanc, and despite being on the other side of the world, had a very similar layout, with the chapel and hall central and offices and classrooms surrounding it. It was also in brown brick veneer like Grand Blanc, which was unusual given many of the churches locally of that era or a little earlier were painted white.

Last night, that stake centre burned down.

Mormon church in Sydney's west destroyed by fire

A Mormon church in Sydney's west has been gutted by fire in the early hours of this morning.

www.9news.com.au

Statement on the at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints meetin

We are saddened to confirm that an overnight fire has caused significant damage to the Hebersham meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints.

news-pacific.churchofjesuschrist.org

Really, the strangest coincidence.

No idea why, yet, but the scuttlebutt from my mum, who told me about it, is that it's probably electrical. Nobody hurt, thank goodness, since it was the middle of the night.

MOO

It is very strange....
and, ya know, if it was another LDS Church here in the States...we would be suspect.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It's the strangest thing.

I'd said earlier in the thread that I'd never heard of an LDS church destroyed by fire in modern times, but I was sure it'd happened.

I'd also been thinking a lot about the local stake centre I attended conferences at as a child. It was dedicated only months before Grand Blanc, and despite being on the other side of the world, had a very similar layout, with the chapel and hall central and offices and classrooms surrounding it. It was also in brown brick veneer like Grand Blanc, which was unusual given many of the churches locally of that era or a little earlier were painted white.

Last night, that stake centre burned down.

Mormon church in Sydney's west destroyed by fire

A Mormon church in Sydney's west has been gutted by fire in the early hours of this morning.

www.9news.com.au

Statement on the at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints meetin

We are saddened to confirm that an overnight fire has caused significant damage to the Hebersham meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints.

news-pacific.churchofjesuschrist.org

Really, the strangest coincidence.

No idea why, yet, but the scuttlebutt from my mum, who told me about it, is that it's probably electrical. Nobody hurt, thank goodness, since it was the middle of the night.

MOO

@iamshadow21 ... look at what Google AI says about this church!!

[B][I][FONT=georgia]These are results for [URL='https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5539dfb16aea6726&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1063US1063&sxsrf=AE3TifMzVN0j-iz_T2kydZbLvQ_mNLXC0g:1759840042698&q=when+was+the+lds+church+in+hebersham+sydney+built&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-7eyEi5KQAxVGpIkEHbXBMdUQkeECKAB6BAgQEAE']when was the lds church in [B][I]hebersham[/I][/B] sydney built[/URL]
Search instead for [URL='https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5539dfb16aea6726&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1063US1063&sxsrf=AE3TifMzVN0j-iz_T2kydZbLvQ_mNLXC0g:1759840042698&q=when+was+the+lds+church+in+hebesham+sydney+built&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-7eyEi5KQAxVGpIkEHbXBMdUQvgUoAXoECBAQAg']when was the lds church in hebesham sydney built[/URL][/FONT][/I][/B]

AI Overview


The Hebersham building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, located on Pringle Road, was destroyed by a fire in November 2023 and had not been rebuilt as of late 2024
. While the original construction date is not publicly documented, historical information about the LDS Church's building programs in Australia provides context.
The original church building

• In the mid-1950s, the LDS Church accelerated its construction of permanent church buildings (chapels) throughout Australia.
• The first LDS stake (diocese) in Sydney was organized in 1960. The Hebersham building would have been one of the chapels built to accommodate this rapid expansion.

The fire and its aftermath

• • In November 2023, the building and its attached community hall were destroyed by a fire.
  • Though plans to rebuild were announced, the new building was not complete as of late 2024.

 

[iamshadow21]

@iamshadow21 ... look at what Google AI says about this church!!

[B][I][FONT=georgia]These are results for [URL='https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5539dfb16aea6726&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1063US1063&sxsrf=AE3TifMzVN0j-iz_T2kydZbLvQ_mNLXC0g:1759840042698&q=when+was+the+lds+church+in+hebersham+sydney+built&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-7eyEi5KQAxVGpIkEHbXBMdUQkeECKAB6BAgQEAE']when was the lds church in [B][I]hebersham[/I][/B] sydney built[/URL]
Search instead for [URL='https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5539dfb16aea6726&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1063US1063&sxsrf=AE3TifMzVN0j-iz_T2kydZbLvQ_mNLXC0g:1759840042698&q=when+was+the+lds+church+in+hebesham+sydney+built&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-7eyEi5KQAxVGpIkEHbXBMdUQvgUoAXoECBAQAg']when was the lds church in hebesham sydney built[/URL][/FONT][/I][/B]

AI Overview


The Hebersham building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, located on Pringle Road, was destroyed by a fire in November 2023 and had not been rebuilt as of late 2024
. While the original construction date is not publicly documented, historical information about the LDS Church's building programs in Australia provides context.
The original church building

• In the mid-1950s, the LDS Church accelerated its construction of permanent church buildings (chapels) throughout Australia.
• The first LDS stake (diocese) in Sydney was organized in 1960. The Hebersham building would have been one of the chapels built to accommodate this rapid expansion.

The fire and its aftermath

• • In November 2023, the building and its attached community hall were destroyed by a fire.
  • Though plans to rebuild were announced, the new building was not complete as of late 2024.

That's garbage, as is most AI. The only thing correct is that they did a lot of construction from the 1960s onwards.

The Hebersham building was dedicated while mum was pregnant with me, meaning 1981.

Mum literally attended meetings at this building in the last month or so. It only burnt down yesterday.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

It is very strange....
and, ya know, if it was another LDS Church here in the States...we would be suspect.

I sincerely doubt there is any connection at all. Most people here are indifferent to LDS, or, if annoyed by them, it's at a level that is at a similar one to a high school friend of mine's mum. She was a lounge singer and professional tarot card reader, had no time for people trying to convert her, and whenever she saw missionaries coming up her path, she'd turn on the sprinkler and they'd get wet. (It's Australia, so they'd dry quickly.)

Add to that, I doubt many people saw about Grand Blanc out here. Yes, it made the news, but just. A mass shooting is a major, major thing if it happens in Australia, but we hear about a new one in the US every other day. It's impossible to keep track of them or keep them separate from each other.

It only feels weird to me because of the personal connection, which is a me thing. Because I was thinking of Hebersham because of my history with it, because of Grand Blanc. When I was seventeen, I was part of a choir that performed Handel's Messiah there. A lovely chapel for beautiful music.

MOO

EDIT: I'd just like to add, on the probability of the fire being electrical, the most badly damaged section, the southern wing of classrooms, seems to have been the only section of the roof with solar panels.