MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #4

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  • #721
I'm in agreement with you Spellbound regarding she was the only victim of the alleged sexual abuse. At some point, Julia was able to end the abuse, she moved to Grandmother's home and finally there is distance. From the affadavit we have learned that JT was angry that Julia was dating interracially. Was that a slap in his face? Julia had a date Saturdaynight. Sunday night/early am she is murdered. We know there was a phone call between the two. Was it about working? He also tells us she told him, "I love you, Daddy." Anyone else find that preposterous? I think JT had been seething because she had gotten out from under this thumb. He was seething because she was dating interracially. Was that one more slap in the face of this very controlling man? Something was said in that last phone call. I'd bet on it. Regarding the scene, I think it may have been all staged. The gloves, the attempt to make it look ransacked. The panties were taken due to possible evidence. He takes what he bound her with, what he used to cut off her clothes, and whoopsies, drops the gloves in front of the bathroom door. I disagree with Trojan that it would have been difficult to overpower her. I believe JT knew exactlly how to get control of her quickly. There was very little of a struggle. Two small abrasions on her elbow. It happened quickly and was over fast. So she is found facedown in the tub with her phone under her. The ultimate act of control. Cause he's the boss and he shuts her up for the last time.
Forgive me Trojan.

It does appear that way by the divide within the family but I wonder when did it start. The reason I ask is Julie has a twin sister and Julie never told her what went on especially if she was young when it started is questionable. How did JT manage to keep this behavior away from others? Did anyone notice JT giving Julie special attention? Did he take her alone out of the sight of others when he wanted to punish her? When he ran errands did he always want Julie to go with him? This part here reminds me so much of a movie where one sister finally spoken up about sexual abuse to a school teacher and no one in the family believed her. The oldest sister had let their father move in with her since he had to leave his home after the arrest. The oldest sister had a son and was married. It was only when she walked in on her father who had been alone with her son and realized by her son's reaction he had been sexually abused did she do the right thing. She originally denied the claims and sided with the father. It turned out the father had abused the older sister as well but she ran from it and had denied the abuse until being faced with it again through her sister's claim and the father's arrest.

It took her son being a victim before she did the right thing for her own sister.

That's a scary thought because who is going to do the right thing for Julie before it's too late for another victim?

Indeed she was making moves to distance herself from something. Some do stop or attempt to stop abuse cycles that are not healthy and are wrong. Though it could also depend on the type of abuse and the sexual hunger for Julie was something the killer knew it could not be overcome. Someone wanted Julie gone because she had already left that person but they also wanted that one last time with her because she wasn't going to be around anymore and that person very well knew it. If I can't have you, no one else will either is one message I see.

While it could be true it sounds more like something Julie would say to Trojan with one word changed. Honestly, I never believed that when I first saw it. "Oh Grandpa! I love you!" or "I love you, Grandpa!", yes but her saying that to JT, not so much. I try so hard to not think of JT as guilty but when I see things like that my instincts ruffle.

Your post is pretty spot on. This appears as an attack by silent control because one look at any of Julie's pictures shows a woman with spunk. I just don't see how she would have put up with this without a swift unexpected attack. The killer didn't want to let her go while alive so better she was dead to end it. This could be how the killer in their thoughts justified the actions.

Just my thoughts and opinions.
 
  • #722
I've considered a vengeance too JT may have toward Julia. But once Julia was away from the Turnquist household, living with her grandmother and then moving to Ypsi for school, it would seem JT would cool down in an out of sight out of mind way, so to speak. Also, if JT was so ticked at Julia, why would he have her working with him at cleaning jobs? Most people try to avoid others they don't get along with. He would have to see her at family events, but could easily find an excuse not to have her work in the business, like "thanks, but I've got enough help right now" or "I cannot pay you what you're worth." Seems like he wouldn't go out of his way to stay in communication with Julia.

Wild speculation here, but could it be that JT didn't have a problem with Julia per say, he just wanted her to see things his way. He wasn't willing to go up against the Grandmother when Julia stayed with her, but couldn't resist keeping in contact once Julia had a place of her own. By Julia working with him occasionally, he could stop by, when in the area, possibly unannounced to discuss a change in work plans or to drop off a paycheck etc..

The Led Zeppelin song "I Can't Quit You, Babe" came to mind when I read this post. The second lyric of the song is..."So, I'm going to put you down for a while."

Could it be while at Grandma's house, he put her down to abide time until she moved out? He would know if she had plans to move out? So perhaps as a lion in waiting...he waited to re-connect with her and slowly won her back? Won her back could include a bribe of extra money for helping with cleaning jobs or chatting with her at family events after she moved out, things like that. Until she was comfortable with him perhaps through false promises/lies and her guard came down.

The final thought is I may listen to Led Zeppelin too much.

Your speculation is plausible because it's that control factor that keeps coming up. It is reasonable to assume JT would have and/or could have shown up unannounced at her apartment.

If not JT then who else might fit the "control" theme that seems to stand out? Looking at others who exhibit traits that seem to fit the crime is where I get stuck. So what about the control factor? Is there anyone else that might fit this type of personality within her circle? Not saying to go sleuth anyone and report back. It's more like a yes or no question so do any of you feel there is someone else that has been overlooked who might fit under the control factor and had an obsession for her?

If someone says yes then perhaps it's time to review the threads. If it's no then that could mean another check-mark against JT.

Using Spellbound's great post about why the focus on JT and thinking beyond the POI is there any detail overlooked that might fit someone else with the character theme mentioned?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?281270-MI-Julia-Niswender-23-EMU-student-Ypsilanti-Dec-2012-4&p=12059068#post12059068

Another great post, Looking Glass 517. So glad to see everyone talking here. I am sure our favorite Grandpa is delighted as well. This is his train of Justice for Julie that I proudly ride. We will get to that final destination one day, Grandpa!

Just my thought and opinions.
 
  • #723
If one stays focused on how Julia may have been treated as she was murdered, what kind of person

- would tie a young woman's hand and feet,

- cut off her clothes,

- take trophies of her personal items,

- also, take the things they used to tie and cut with,

- then end it all for her in a bathroom?

When it comes to an abusive trophy hunting stepfather who took off their bathroom door, so controlling, it seems reasonable that LE ask and expect answers on all the questions they need for justice. Waiting to provide answers may have protected information about who killed Julia, but it doesn't seem to have stopped but rather just slowed things down, it seems.

Very good observation, FindHG, between the bathroom and bathroom door. Didn't put that together but seeing it spelled out this way does make me raise an eyebrow over it. I have always wondered why she was in the bathroom.
 
  • #724
My guess is, that LE is interested in the days prior because if JT did it, he would have prepared for it. He might have bought certain items, such as rope. He would have gotten the gloves with someone else's DNA somewhere. The glove is perhaps the most important physical evidence. It is nearly certain that the perp put it there, deliberately or accidentally.
It has either the DNA of the perp, or of someone that comes into contact with the perp. IF JT did it, and LE knows where he was the days prior, then they might know where he got the gloves from. In that case they might match the DNA with that person connected to JT. That would not necessarily prove that JT did it. But the list of possible suspects would be drastically reduced.

Exactly! I posted about JT even tricking another male into handling the gloves as one scenario. I totally agree with you that his movements prior to Julie being found are what LE could be looking at and probably consider critical. Those gloves hold two clues in male DNA and tracking them down is what they are probably doing as one of the tasks being handled by LE. Well, I certainly hope so and all else said are my thoughts formed into some type of opinions.
 
  • #725
Did JN's parents have a spare set of keys to her apartment?

I also wonder. I don't think it has ever been confirmed as a yes or no, bit don't quote me on that.

I don't know the answer either because my memory of that question was it never got answered when asked. So I'm with Spellbound and don't quote me on that answer. But...did we miss seeing an answer to the question? Or was there even such a question?....I swear I saw the question!
 
  • #726
I don't know the answer either because my memory of that question was it never got answered when asked. So I'm with Spellbound and don't quote me on that answer. But...did we miss seeing an answer to the question? Or was there even such a question?....I swear I saw the question!

I do not know whether or not the parents had a key to Julia's apartment. I'm sure if LE does not know the answer, this may be a question for JT and KT.
 
  • #727
I would like to thank everyone for their posts and their theories of what may have actually happened. Until JT and KT fully cooperate with LE, there are many questions unanswered.
Just a note of something I have heard ...................... within the last month or so, JT was observed stopping by their garage and running in for a few minutes and then coming back out, jumping in a vehicle and leaving quickly. Their garage is a detached garage, so he did not have to enter the residence. This is a two car garage with an attic storage area.Typical garage, sheets of plywood over the rafters to create an attic storage area. In the past, he kept lots of fishing and hunting gear in there. At one time he had a camouflaged boat used for duck hunting plus some ATVs. Since I have heard about this, I often wonder exactly why he did this,what he may have removed and why he was in such a hurry............ He was wearing a GPS tracker, so I would assume LE had to know he was there. Possibly I don't fully understand how the GPS tracker works though. This was reported to LE.
 
  • #728
One question that keeps coming up for me regarding JT has to do with the polygraph test. If JT is the pert. in this case, how did he pass a polygraph test administered by the Washtenaw County Sheriff? Did JT's martial arts training help him to pass a polygraph test? He is a black belt in martial arts so he's had extensive training. I do not know a lot about martial arts, but I know it's much more than just fancy moves to gain control over an opponent. To reach a high level, such as a black belt, one learns techniques to gain control over external as well as internal body systems. I've checked the internet for answers to this question, but someone with a martial arts background may be able to better explain the possibilities. Some articles on the internet have eluded to it, but nothing has come out a said "yes, this training will help you to pass a polygraph."

Note: I did find an article about a guy in Indiana who was jailed for teaching people how to pass a polygraph test.

http://www.ajc.com/videos/news/man-jailed-for-teaching-job-applicants-how-to-beat/vCB6y3/
 
  • #729
Hi Trojan! It feels good to be focusing on Julia again. Good only in the feeling of working toward our goal once more.

I know it sounds/feels suspicious. I will try to play devils advocate for a moment. Why would JT run into the garage, probably retrieve something, and then drive off quickly? Perhaps he needed something for a job he was doing .... I don't know if he is still doing any work by cleaning right now (or anything else), but he may keep extra supples there. Maybe he wanted fishing gear or something related to his hunting (is there a hunting season open ?) He would have been smarter to have someone get them for him, but he may be allowed to be there when youngest daughter is not home. Perhaps he had called and was told she was not home,or maybe he felt if he did not enter the home where she actual was that it would be allowed. Perhaps he had asked permission of LE (doubtful, but possible), or thought if he was quick enough they would think he only drove past?

do you know if the garage had been searched at any time by LE?

ModMaiden, you have been VERY helpful! Thanks for adding your thoughts again.
 
  • #730
One question that keeps coming up for me regarding JT has to do with the polygraph test. If JT is the pert. in this case, how did he pass a polygraph test administered by the Washtenaw County Sheriff? Did JT's martial arts training help him to pass a polygraph test? He is a black belt in martial arts so he's had extensive training. I do not know a lot about martial arts, but I know it's much more than just fancy moves to gain control over an opponent. To reach a high level, such as a black belt, one learns techniques to gain control over external as well as internal body systems. I've checked the internet for answers to this question, but someone with a martial arts background may be able to better explain the possibilities. Some articles on the internet have eluded to it, but nothing has come out a said "yes, this training will help you to pass a polygraph."

Note: I did find an article about a guy in Indiana who was jailed for teaching people how to pass a polygraph test.

http://www.ajc.com/videos/news/man-jailed-for-teaching-job-applicants-how-to-beat/vCB6y3/

I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (which is similar to the martial arts JT does). I am sure that martial arts training does not help at all for passing a polygraph test. Usually, besides self defense, these martial arts school also teach positive values, such as honesty, courage, perseverance, self-discipline etc. It is definitely more than just fancy moves. Martial arts doesn't really teach you how to choke someone (at least you wouldn't ever practice actually choking someone), but it would teach you what to do if someone else would try to choke you. There is not much actual fighting going on in these schools, because of the risk of injuries.

Mixed martial arts schools are much tougher. People there get trained and get involved in actual fights without pads and other safeties.
But JT was not in that kind of school.

I think his martial arts training is much overstated, I think.
 
  • #731
I don't know if anyone asked this before. Do we know if anyone had a life insurance policy for Julia?
 
  • #732
I have never heard of a life insurance policy on Julia, but that does not mean there was none.

JMO, but I do think martial arts training could affect a lie detector result, particularly when added with lifelong habits such as lying. (can't say for sure JT was a lifelong liar, but if so he had good experience in covering his lies). Polygraph results are based on stress, martial arts teaches staying calm. A lifetime of getting away with lies may afford an ability to stay calm, give no outward appearance of lies, not cause stress. If one has no anxiety and can maintain that throughout a test, he may be able to pass whether or not he was truthful. No sweating, no rise in blood pressure, no sign of anxiety .... maybe they can pass. It would not be just because of the martial arts, though.

Again, this is just JMO, but adding together several different traits or habits, I think it is possible.

ETA: I also think it likely/possible JT would study (via Internet searches) articles on how to beat a LED. Thus, another reason LE may have wanted his computers as evidence. JMO
 
  • #733
I don't know if anyone asked this before. Do we know if anyone had a life insurance policy for Julia?

Not that I know of. I believe her policy through Walmarts listed Jennifer as the beneficiary but I don't believe it was paid due to the fact that she had not worked there long enough. Like I said, I don't know any of this as a fact.
 
  • #734
I have never heard of a life insurance policy on Julia, but that does not mean there was none.

JMO, but I do think martial arts training could affect a lie detector result, particularly when added with lifelong habits such as lying. (can't say for sure JT was a lifelong liar, but if so he had good experience in covering his lies). Polygraph results are based on stress, martial arts teaches staying calm. A lifetime of getting away with lies may afford an ability to stay calm, give no outward appearance of lies, not cause stress. If one has no anxiety and can maintain that throughout a test, he may be able to pass whether or not he was truthful. No sweating, no rise in blood pressure, no sign of anxiety .... maybe they can pass. It would not be just because of the martial arts, though.

Again, this is just JMO, but adding together several different traits or habits, I think it is possible.

ETA: I also think it likely/possible JT would study (via Internet searches) articles on how to beat a LED. Thus, another reason LE may have wanted his computers as evidence. JMO

I do wonder if a combination of anxiety and/or high blood pressure medication could render the calmness needed to pass a polygraph. Or, maybe a mixture of natural herbal supplements. I know a few people who take herbal remedies for anxiety. That being said, they have to be taken over a period of time to build up in a person's system. The same is true of anxiety and high blood pressure medication from the pharmacy.

Agree Spellbound, however it may be done, a person would definitely have keep their stress level to a minimum.

I did see on the internet too, a lifelong liar has a better chance of passing a polygraph, when lying. I will speculate that a person who can convince themselves of their own lies, wholeheartedly to be truth, may be able to remain calm enough to pass. What if someone underwent hypnotism of a sort to validate their innocents to themselves? I've also heard of people learning to pass a polygraph test as part of special training in the military. I believe it's part of training for a special forces unit.
 
  • #735
You make good points to consider, LookingGlass
 
  • #736
A few things. Lie detection tests are not admissible for a reason. Has Washtenaw come out and stated JT passed? I remember a inconclusive result. As a Pilates instructor, 18 years, I am well aware of breath in aiding focus and control. This would include yoga, meditation and I would presume the martial arts as well.
 
  • #737
A few things. Lie detection tests are not admissible for a reason. Has Washtenaw come out and stated JT passed? I remember a inconclusive result. As a Pilates instructor, 18 years, I am well aware of breath in aiding focus and control. This would include yoga, meditation and I would presume the martial arts as well.

I've heard conflicting remarks about JT passing 1 or 2 polygraph tests. His attorney has said he passed 2 polygraphs, but hasn't gone into the details of admission thereof. One news article said he passed a polygraph test at the Washtenaw County Sheriff office, while another source (speculation) said something like, his attorney's office dropped off evidence of a passed polygraph test to the Sheriff's office. Really, when it comes to the polygraph(s) I'm not sure what to believe. It may not matter if they are not admissible in the court. I know in terms of public opinion when someone passes a polygraph, to some, it's viewed as an admission of truth.

I too, wondered about yoga and meditation, in the sense of learning breathing techniques to aid in focus and control, and its possible effect on maintaining a low stress level. Clearly, I know instruction in yoga, meditation and martial arts are all intended to improve mind and function, the goal being to achieve better health of the participant. And I've never heard of anyone taking this type of training with the goal of passing a polygraph test.

For what is probably a good reason, it's very difficult to find any information on the how one might learn to pass a polygraph or , what medical concoction, pharmaceutical or other, that would help to achieve passing as a goal.

I understand why they are not permissible in court: because they measure changes in heart rate and blood pressure in collaboration with answering questions in a yes or no format. They do not measure truth or lies, per say. I saw a case on Investigative ID where a man who didn't kill his girlfriend failed the polygraph test because he felt so guilty for being a bad boyfriend. She ran off with another guy, who did the crime. That being said there have been many instances of persons responsible for horrific crimes passing polygraphs as well.
 
  • #738
do you know if the garage had been searched at any time by LE?

ModMaiden, you have been VERY helpful! Thanks for adding your thoughts again.

As far as I know, the garage was never searched.
 
  • #739
A few things. Lie detection tests are not admissible for a reason. Has Washtenaw come out and stated JT passed? I remember a inconclusive result. As a Pilates instructor, 18 years, I am well aware of breath in aiding focus and control. This would include yoga, meditation and I would presume the martial arts as well.


Apparently it is in the documents that were just released. I would say that is confirmation. BBM

#Two polygraph tests were administered — one privately and one at the Washtenaw County Sheriff’s Office — and Mr. Turnquist passed both, the documents stated. There was no physical evidence linking him to the murder scene.

http://monroenews.com/news/2015/sep/03/documents-make-turnquist-target-death-stepdaughter/?templates=tablet&news=
 
  • #740
If one stays focused on how Julia may have been treated as she was murdered, what kind of person

- would tie a young woman's hand and feet,

- cut off her clothes,

- take trophies of her personal items,

- also, take the things they used to tie and cut with,

- then end it all for her in a bathroom?

When it comes to an abusive trophy hunting stepfather who took off their bathroom door, so controlling, it seems reasonable that LE ask and expect answers on all the questions they need for justice. Waiting to provide answers may have protected information about who killed Julia, but it doesn't seem to have stopped but rather just slowed things down, it seems.

I had to come back to this post because of the bathroom connection. Here are some thoughts I had regarding this and using the 'control' factor that seems apparent in this case. Why was she found in the bathtub?

One thought I had is that a male figure was left alone with Julie when she was younger. The reason I wonder about the bathtub connection is this individual would be left in charge to watch her while other family members were out of the house.

This individual would have control over her, as in she would need to mind them, etc. If this individual sexually abused her while no one was at home then ordered her to take a bath to remove evidence, did they stand in the doorway while she was in the tub? Another control factor would have been this person telling this frightened child how bad things can happen in the bathtub when little girls don't behave. She is scared and obeys the person who is watching her from the bathroom door while keeping an eye out for returning family members. Whether she told anyone about the abuse I don't know but if she didn't, the fear of something bad happening to her could have prevented her from speaking up. They could have controlled her thinking as a young child but as she got older that control was fading.

As she grew older this person could start to fear her because she might reveal what they have done to her over the years. The fact she was found in the bathtub could have been her punishment and to show her it was true that bad things can happen if you don't behave.

Sometimes understanding a criminal is thinking like one...ugh. Using that logic, I was trying to view the bathroom connection from the control aspect and understand how maybe the bathtub came into play.

There is always that possibility I am way off base so for now this is just my thoughts and opinions going wild.
 
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