Michelle Young. Murdered Pregnant Mom, NC Part 12

[raisincharlie]

Wow Deputy Dawg,

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY !

This is totally awesome - lots of great information there which I appreciate you asking ! Now I understand this much better - very glad he put this in terms so easy to follow. Technology is amazing isn't it ? Almost scary what they can do with this DNA stuff. Whoa - thanks again and certainly relay to your guru my appreciation !

Very interesting about how samples can be prioritized - that says a few things doesn't it ?

It probably wouldn't be a good thing for me to tour a lab - Curious George here, they would end doing this :silenced: to me.

Seriously - thank you, will study for more questions. This is very beneficial information for all the sleuthers here.

 

[strach304]

Strach,

If blood is clearly visible, I'm at a loss as to why investigators would use luminol to start with. The principal behind it is to find trace blood or determine if a scene has been cleaned up. Which of course if the scene was cleaned up by the killer - friends wouldn't see the foot prints would they ?

ETA - luminol is a clear liquid of itself made with a powdery compound made up of nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and carbon mixed with hydrogen peroxide. and usually only shows up under certain lighting conditions.

If LE were trying to determine if blood, especially bloody footprints were cleaned up they'd use luminol right? I know from the LP case it's the last thing they do because it then destroys the blood that's been treated with luminol. Seems to me they'd also want to test Cassidy's footprints to see who's blood it is and not just assume it was her mothers. So what then happens to those footprints? Don't know if this is a good question for your dna expert Deputy Dawg? Really the whole crime scene processing of the footprints is my question. Tire tracks and shoe prints are done using casts but footprints would be done differently, no?

ETA: My point is that the so-called missing footprints from the 911 call till whoever saw the house, could've been destroyed during that process. Therefore no mystery as to why MF said that and why they were gone once the house was released.

 

[raisincharlie]

If LE were trying to determine if blood, especially bloody footprints were cleaned up they'd use luminol right? I know from the LP case it's the last thing they do because it then destroys the blood that's been treated with luminol. Seems to me they'd also want to test Cassidy's footprints to see who's blood it is and not just assume it was her mothers. So what then happens to those footprints? Don't know if this is a good question for your dna expert Deputy Dawg? Really the whole crime scene processing of the footprints is my question. Tire tracks and shoe prints are done using casts but footprints would be done differently, no?

Yep - the luminol is very good for recovering footprints or other traces that have been cleaned up. As I understand it however I think if bleach is used to clean up the luminol might not work. I have always heard that luminol does interferre with the integrity of samples and should be one of the last steps but I also recall reading somewhere that some analysis can still be done. I will look that up as it was not that long ago that I read it.

There are other ways to recover footprints as well - electrostatic dusters have been used as they will show the disturbances that footprints make in dust on flooring or from fibers. I don't understand this well enough to explain it but it also has been used to track footprints across hardwoods and even carpets where there is no blood evidence.

In this case there is a definite reason in my mind why LE wanted JYs footprints and measurements. Not sure what technology would have been used to recover such from either the house, the bedroom or possibly from the hotel room though but one has to wonder about that machine LE had to bring in for this case...

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Wow Deputy Dawg,

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY !

This is totally awesome - lots of great information there which I appreciate you asking ! Now I understand this much better - very glad he put this in terms so easy to follow. Technology is amazing isn't it ? Almost scary what they can do with this DNA stuff. Whoa - thanks again and certainly relay to your guru my appreciation !

Very interesting about how samples can be prioritized - that says a few things doesn't it ?
It probably wouldn't be a good thing for me to tour a lab - Curious George here, they would end doing this :silenced: to me.

Seriously - thank you, will study for more questions. This is very beneficial information for all the sleuthers her.

I, personally, found that interesting about priorities in the lab. So in re MY case, because LE doesn't consider this a random crime, it's not fast-tracked.

Another thought I had re lab backlog. I started here in 2003 - I didn't know anyone in the Crime Lab at the time (so no one to personally ask), but the state crime labs were in the news for a variety of reasons. One was that the average backlog level was at approx 8 months. >>>> Forward now to 12/06, when I last visited the lab, I asked the same question and was told they're down to about a 4 month backlog. That's actually a significant improvement, IMO!!!! I'm assuming that's the average for all types of testing - not separated for drugs, DNA, etc. It would be my estimate that the DNA testing backlog is higher than the drug testing backlog, for example. FWIW.

Bringing back to MY case and NC lab...so if we're at 3 months, it doesn't appear wholly unreasonable to me. Frustrating, yes, but certainly legitimate and possible? Yes.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

If LE were trying to determine if blood, especially bloody footprints were cleaned up they'd use luminol right? I know from the LP case it's the last thing they do because it then destroys the blood that's been treated with luminol. Seems to me they'd also want to test Cassidy's footprints to see who's blood it is and not just assume it was her mothers. So what then happens to those footprints? Don't know if this is a good question for your dna expert Deputy Dawg? Really the whole crime scene processing of the footprints is my question. Tire tracks and shoe prints are done using casts but footprints would be done differently, no?
ETA: My point is that the so-called missing footprints from the 911 call till whoever saw the house, could've been destroyed during that process. Therefore no mystery as to why MF said that and why they were gone once the house was released.

I will ask and see what he says.

 

[raisincharlie]

I, personally, found that interesting about priorities in the lab. So in re MY case, because LE doesn't consider this a random crime, it's not fast-tracked.

Another thought I had re lab backlog. I started here in 2003 - I didn't know anyone in the Crime Lab at the time (so no one to personally ask), but the state crime labs were in the news for a variety of reasons. One was that the average backlog level was at approx 8 months. >>>> Forward now to 12/06, when I last visited the lab, I asked the same question and was told they're down to about a 4 month backlog. That's actually a significant improvement, IMO!!!! I'm assuming that's the average for all types of testing - not separated for drugs, DNA, etc. It would be my estimate that the DNA testing backlog is higher than the drug testing backlog, for example. FWIW.

Bringing back to MY case and NC lab...so if we're at 3 months, it doesn't appear wholly unreasonable to me. Frustrating, yes, but certainly legitimate and possible? Yes.

This seems reasonable to me DD. Interesting that you bring this up - Taximom posted a link from WRAL ( and I'll go back and get it for you) but the SBI lab in NC is backlogged for drug testing by 7 months. In the interview for this link the director says that DNA testing is a lower time frame as they have improved there but no time given and the drug testing lead time is higher due to the number of cases, retirements within the lab, and space. She mentioned that they had done 4000 special drug related requests last year. So it may vary from lab to lab dependent on the types of case pending I think. I'll get this link for you - but again it doesn't tell much about the DNA side. Back in a bit.

ETA - the link compliments of Taximom:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1201664/

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

This seems reasonable to me DD. Interesting that you bring this up - Taximom posted a link from WRAL ( and I'll go back and get it for you) but the SBI lab in NC is backlogged for drug testing by 7 months. In the interview for this link the director says that DNA testing is a lower time frame as they have improved there but no time given and the drug testing lead time is higher due to the number of cases, retirements within the lab, and space. She mentioned that they had done 4000 special drug related requests last year. So it may vary from lab to lab dependent on the types of case pending I think. I'll get this link for you - but again it doesn't tell much about the DNA side. Back in a bit.

ETA - the link compliments of Taximom:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1201664/

LOL, so much for my assumptions! Okay, I'm just going to bug this guy again and ask. I know at our local lab here, there's a whole lot more resources (manpower, etc.) specific to the drug side, and at least stories I hear in the halls is that the major backlogs and frustrations are with waiting on DNA. Rather than guessing, I might as well just ask what our situation is, huh?!

I did email him re collection of footprint evidence and also luminol.

Thanks for the info.

 

[5bigfish5]

I think this is an example of how things get twisted around at CTV. The helicopter reference was made with respect to the WRAL helicopter most likely heading to Wendell to do the live shots of the house involved in that murder as the area was in the flight path for the WRAL chopper. That's how I understood it anyway.

As to the Young home being reopened - I think someone saw some video footage that was included with a report but it was old footage used to fill in the story. I've looked on both WRAL and ABC and found nothing indicating LE had been back to the Young home. Just my take but I found no reports to indicate this indeed happened.

Hi RC,

I just got off the phone with the news desk at WTVD, they confirmed that the "Crime Scene Cleaning Crew" from the WCSD WAS at the Young house yesterday morning and that they indeed ran the story.

Cheers!

(919) 683-1111, you have to tell the first person what you want and then get transfered to the news room.

 

[j2mirish]

No flames for you Curious 1 !!!

I thought about this very subject this morning while hacking OUT. Couldn't think it through all the way however, got very distracted by a red fox running through the woods toward a pond to the north. I followed him as he didn't seem to realize a human was part of the horse...I saw him, must have been a she actually, enter a hole in the brush near the north side of the pond. She watched me for a while and then I heard all these little squeeks - she has baby foxes - raising them on her own I guess. Its very cold today and I noticed the pond was frozen so - no water source for Mom. I had to stop and break the ice so she would have something to drink. Will have to go back later and break it again so she will have water later. I rode away and stopped to look back - yep she came out to get a drink.

Sometimes we all need help getting a drink from the pond. Will bring her some dinner later...

what a sweetheart you are :blowkiss:

 

[Mama-cita]

Hi RC,

I just got off the phone with the news desk at WTVD, they confirmed that the "Crime Scene Cleaning Crew" from the WCSD WAS at the Young house yesterday morning and that they indeed ran the story.

Cheers!

(919) 683-1111, you have to tell the first person what you want and then get transfered to the news room.

GREAT detective work 5! I'll give you a high 5!

Now we need to wonder, what were they looking for??????
Did you ask them that? LOL it never hurts to ask!

 

[curious1]

Some of you have had questions about luminol. I use to work at Sirchie in Raleigh, those of you in the area may know of it. Sirchie (I just checked on teh internet and it looks like they have moved to Youngsville just outside of Raleigh, NC) manufacture and sells crime kits like you see on CSI and other things like mags, helmets, etc. It's an interesting place, they deal internationally. My days were interesting. I learned to say "one moment please" in several different languages.

From what I remember...luminol floresces (sp?) maybe 20 seconds, they have to darken the room before hand, put on the goggles and spray and they also have to have a crime scene photographer present and ready to take pictures as they spray. The CSI shows have gotten that procedure pretty right. (Doh, forgot they need the special light, left that out the first time...sorry.)

You only need a very very small amount of the stuff to show up the blood.

Now one drawback to the stuff is that it will flourese (sp?) if bleach is present. So if someone cleans up with bleach you can have the whole room light up and there is no way to tell the bleach from the blood.

Now, I do think that even after using luminol you can still test for DNA. At least I am pretty sure about that. DD can probably answer that.

 

[raisincharlie]

Hi RC,

I just got off the phone with the news desk at WTVD, they confirmed that the "Crime Scene Cleaning Crew" from the WCSD WAS at the Young house yesterday morning and that they indeed ran the story.

Cheers!

(919) 683-1111, you have to tell the first person what you want and then get transfered to the news room.

uh oh - did they clean up those missing bloody footprints ?

No word on what they were supposedly cleaning up ? Maybe replacing the sheet rock they took out ? That is just weird to have a police crew come in after the family had a contractor in to clean the house. Especially 3 months later - something's up with that IMO.

 

[scandi]

Morning Everyone,

Yesterday I had an answer given about Luminol from Dominique. It's back a few pager, so here you go:


"...from what I gather, they can re-lum but they can't then go back and take samples from lumd. evidence...the lum. process will always show evidence of blood but they can't gather info. further as the lum. process destroys other evidence."

Hmmm, Now when she says 'other evidence', I wonder if she's talking about the blood itself?

I don't really know why we are even thinking there were no little prints from listening to Gojo. Bet he's sitting back laughing as are LE if they are reading these 2 forums!

 

[scandi]

I looked up Luminol destroys blood and came up with this:

http://ian-albert.com/misc/luminol.php

Snippet

"" . . . I guess forensics experts don't actually use the stuff much because of the large potential for false positives. To facilitate the hemoglobin and luminol mixing you have to destroy the blood cell walls, which is another reason the forensic folks don't use luminol much—destroying cell walls tends to destroy DNA evidence, too."

 

[5bigfish5]

uh oh - did they clean up those missing bloody footprints ?

No word on what they were supposedly cleaning up ? Maybe replacing the sheet rock they took out ? That is just weird to have a police crew come in after the family had a contractor in to clean the house. Especially 3 months later - something's up with that IMO.

RC,

All I can tell you is what I saw. There were guys in white suits (hazmat like jumpsuits) carrying big black garbage bags out of the house to put on a waiting truck, a mattress was the ONLY thing I could say for sure that I saw. It was a very brief clip.

Cheers!

 

[scandi]

I'm glad you're taking care of your resident Fox and her babies Charlie. :blowkiss: Scandi\

And thanks BigFish for the info. I'm puzzled as to why they would be there 3 1/2 months after closing up the crime scene and so many people have been in there.

Could it be that going over the reports from the original cleaning crew they noticed an incongruity and thought they needed to examine it personally? Could have had something to do with that mattress? Je ne sait!

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

RC,

All I can tell you is what I saw. There were guys in white suits (hazmat like jumpsuits) carrying big black garbage bags out of the house to put on a waiting truck, a mattress was the ONLY thing I could say for sure that I saw. It was a very brief clip.

Cheers!

A mattress. Very interesting.

 

[5bigfish5]

I honestly don't think they were "looking" for anything. It looked like a serious load of trash to me. I believe it must be the last clean-up round, tho what the first "cleaners" did, I have no idea.


Cheers!

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

DNA Guru's answers:

1) Luminol is used to try to find blood not seen by the naked eye (so no reason to spray on seen blood on floor or other item)

2) Does it destroy the blood sample, in regards to further blood testing (DNA, etc.)? - "No, luminol does not destroy DNA." (Wow, I thought it did)

3) Bloody footprints at scene - how are they collected for evidence, besides scaled photos? "Cut out whatever the print is on (linoleum, tile, etc.) You can also use a chemical called amido black - it reacts with the protein in blood and basically creates a permanent stain of the print. You then take pics with a ruler and make comparisons to shoes."

hahahahaha...here's more of our email, :crazy:

Me - "You must have think I've just lost it!"
Him - "Not totally, but if I get called out and have things you questioned as evidence, I might start to wonder!"

Me - "I owe you lots and lots of chocolate for this."
Him - "MMMMM, dark chocolate is my favorite. Keep it coming."

DD

ETA: Thought I'd at least mention what his title is, in case someone wondered if he really is the resident DNA guru. It's "Forensic Scientist, Serology/DNA." So...if he says luminol doesn't destroy further DNA testing, he should know!

 

[curious1]

Maybe the first cleaning crew was typical of what LE sends in after a violent crime and maybe this cleaning crew was hired by JY to clean up the house for him personally. I am sure that when he does go back to the house he does not want to see any evidence of his, oops, I mean the crime. :innocent: