Michelle Young: Pregnant Mom, NC. part 8

[raisincharlie]

Well finally! Thanks RC I remember the argument over SP's truck as well so they can use photos, video and lab info for court. I think LE was smart grabbing the SUV right away but I don't think if Jason did this he wore bloody clothes to drive off in. He would've changed right there, bagged the clothes and tossed or burned them somewhere far away imo.

I agree Strach - I think he cleaned up in his own home before he left.

Did you read that probable cause warrant for Robb that Lisafremont posted - wish we had warrants like that in this case.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well finally! Thanks RC I remember the argument over SP's truck as well so they can use photos, video and lab info for court. I think LE was smart grabbing the SUV right away but I don't think if Jason did this he wore bloody clothes to drive off in. He would've changed right there, bagged the clothes and tossed or burned them somewhere far away imo.

Now I am really getting nervous. They have already returned JYs truck. In SPs case it was kept a long time almost until the trial started.

And didn't they keep OJs Bronco and it was only returned to him after the verdict?

Gosh what does it all mean I wonder. Imo if there was anything at all found in that truck whether it was blood of Michelle's or something else it seems logical LE would want the real deal to show the jury if they are expecting to take this to trial.


IMO

Ocean

 

[jilly]

Jy sure doesn't want anything to do with Raleigh does he ?

I would say he's more likely afraid of the Sheriff's office.:chicken: I'd bet that JY will be picking it up this weekend.

 

[concernedperson]

I have thought about this and the amount of blood that was discovered. I believe it was premeditated and I believe JY came prepared. If he went in naked with plastic bags over his feet and showered and bagged everything on his way out it would be fairly clean. Unless MY caused some wounds we don't know about. Which isn't too likely...seems like a blitz attack. Waking from a dead sleep to be hit on the head wouldn't exactly be in the best defensive mode.

 

[raisincharlie]

Now I am really getting nervous. They have already returned JYs truck. In SPs case it was kept a long time almost until the trial started.

And didn't they keep OJs Bronco and it was only returned to him after the verdict?

Gosh what does it all mean I wonder. Imo if there was anything at all found in that truck whether it was blood of Michelle's or something else it seems logical LE would want the real deal to show the jury if they are expecting to take this to trial.


IMO

Ocean

You're right - SPs truck was never shown at trial - Judge made Distasio return it because the Petersons were having to make payments on it.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well finally! Thanks RC I remember the argument over SP's truck as well so they can use photos, video and lab info for court. I think LE was smart grabbing the SUV right away but I don't think if Jason did this he wore bloody clothes to drive off in. He would've changed right there, bagged the clothes and tossed or burned them somewhere far away imo.

Didn't LE say they brought in special equipment. If he was soaked with blood and had to change you would think some drops at least would be there and if he went to clean up in the bathroom surely they checked the faucets and drains, rugs......they could find not only blood by maybe his hair that had her blood clinging to it.

I just cant see him doing something so messy and then being able to clean absolutely every trace of it from the home.

Now I am wondering about a hitman again

IMO

Ocean

 

[concernedperson]

Didn't LE say they brought in special equipment. If he was soaked with blood and had to change you would think some drops at least would be there and if he went to clean up in the bathroom surely they checked the faucets and drains, rugs......they could find not only blood by maybe his hair that had her blood clinging to it.

I just cant see him doing something so messy and then being able to clean absolutely every trace of it from the home.

Now I am wondering about a hitman again

IMO

Ocean

A hitman would have the same problem. Messy, messy.

What about if he came in ( re:my earlier post) with bags on his feet and went in the backyard and hosed off in the grass? No drains and faucets inside. If he was a few feet way wouldn't it be spatter vs. soaked? Sorry for being so graphic.

 

[jilly]

I have thought about this and the amount of blood that was discovered. I believe it was premeditated and I believe JY came prepared. If he went in naked with plastic bags over his feet and showered and bagged everything on his way out it would be fairly clean. Unless MY caused some wounds we don't know about. Which isn't too likely...seems like a blitz attack. Waking from a dead sleep to be hit on the head wouldn't exactly be in the best defensive mode.

I agree with you CP about premeditation. I've always thought that since the fax. I believe, like you, that he was prepared - not necessarily naked though - possibly a ski mask, gloves, maybe clothing on top of clothing and no need to shower. Such a shame that there's no one around to know what clothing of his is missing because I believe there's a big bag of bloody clothing somewhere out there.

 

[strach304]

The out in the yard is a good idea but risky maybe. We don't know that the killer didn't clean up and what forensics they have found. Pouring drano down the pipes would ruin the forensics for hair I think. I did suggest that there were signs of a clean up on another post which would account for LE's reasoning of not random. For me that could include any of those things but even so doesn't prove Jason did it. I thought he would've changed clothes and of course bagged and disposed of them elsewhere but showered at the hotel he was staying at so I do hope they checked that room for traces of Michele's blood.

ETA: Remember Jason's hair and other dna should be there so a certain amount of that is allowable they say.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

A hitman would have the same problem. Messy, messy.

What about if he came in ( re:my earlier post) with bags on his feet and went in the backyard and hosed off in the grass? No drains and faucets inside. If he was a few feet way wouldn't it be spatter vs. soaked? Sorry for being so graphic.

Well it is hard to really say. If he was in close contact with her and he had to be close to do this you would think maybe his pants bottom would get blood soaked on them or the sleeve of his shirt. Yes of course there should be blood spatter there. There is no way he can avoid it if there is as much blood there as we have been told.

I think it would be too risky to go outside imo plus he would still have to walk there and even if he covered his shoes in plastic the blood tracking would get on the bottom of them.

Police usually will take their black lights out into the yard to see if there are traces of blood found outside.

I just really dont know what to make of it.

IMO

Ocean

 

[raisincharlie]

The out in the yard is a good idea but risky maybe. We don't know that the killer didn't clean up and what forensics they have found. Pouring drano down the pipes would ruin the forensics for hair I think. I did suggest that there were signs of a clean up on another post which would account for LE's reasoning of not random. For me that could include any of those things but even so doesn't prove Jason did it. I thought he would've changed clothes and of course bagged and disposed of them elsewhere but showered at the hotel he was staying at so I do hope they checked that room for traces of Michele's blood.

ETA: Remember Jason's hair and other dna should be there so a certain amount of that is allowable they say.

Just a WA quess - there may have been blood found on the closet or on clothes in the closet if the murderer got clean clothes out of the closet and or dresser - there may even be blood dripped on the shoes and whatnot in the closet. It will be interesting to see if blood stains were also found in the bathroom.

I'm thinking the return of the SUV signifies the start of the returns on forensics - hopefully.

 

[scandi]

One thing I have done is watch a lot of great CSI and Forensic Files shows. If JY was the one who bludgeoned Michelle, forensic specialists can determine even if a single drop of blood is from spatter or dripped. I remember one CSI Miami show where a spot of blood was discovered on the edge of the killers sole. It nailed him as it was the victims and a drop of spatter.

It pretty well goes without saying here he had to leave some clue as he is not an experienced killer.

I had to laugh today, as a TH was referring to the State forensics lab in Denver as one of the finest in the country That is the variable, how astute the forensic team is. Scandi

 

[strach304]

Just a WA quess - there may have been blood found on the closet or on clothes in the closet if the murderer got clean clothes out of the closet and or dresser - there may even be blood dripped on the shoes and whatnot in the closet. It will be interesting to see if blood stains were also found in the bathroom.

I'm thinking the return of the SUV signifies the start of the returns on forensics - hopefully.

Yep there's all that too and even if he used clothes in his luggage you would think they'd have some kind of trace evidence from that too maybe. The returns on the forensics beginning is my hope too.

 

[strach304]

Ah Scandi, you just brought back the overlooked tooth to mind. They were there long enough though. I sure have learned a lot from those shows down to the duct tape but so have the killers. My brother was recently telling me about a case I had read about that happened near him where a college student had met a young lady on the internet and arranged a date and he killed her. The story was here on websleuths but I didn't know about the follow up till he told me. The guy was a forensic student and had cut off her fingers and somehow removed the jaw bone and some other horrible disfigurements to keep her from being identified. Apparently it was on tv and LE said he had committed the perfect murder but he told someone is how he was caught. Back on topic though he said he learned this in forensics.

 

[jilly]

Ah Scandi, you just brought back the overlooked tooth to mind. They were there long enough though. I sure have learned a lot from those shows down to the duct tape but so have the killers. My brother was recently telling me about a case I had read about that happened near him where a college student had met a young lady on the internet and arranged a date and he killed her. The story was here on websleuths but I didn't know about the follow up till he told me. The guy was a forensic student and had cut off her fingers and somehow removed the jaw bone and some other horrible disfigurements to keep her from being identified. Apparently it was on tv and LE said he had committed the perfect murder but he told someone is how he was caught. Back on topic though he said he learned this in forensics.

After doing all that he told someone??? Unbelievable but thank goodness!

 

[pack_fan]

I'm baaaaaackkkkk! After PSA came back, I had to make a grand entrance. Been traveling too for the new year, etc, etc, etc. Thought I would make a grand entrance as well. BTW, welcome back PSA.

I think the return of the vehicle means forensics is picking up. No doubt in my mind that they would not have returned the vehicle without forensic evidence in hand. They could have used this in the trial. Either for or against JY. I have moved from on the fence for JY to off the fence against JY. If this vehicle is being returned, I am having some serious doubts about the evidence in the car. I would have thought that this would have been a definate point against him. Pre-meditated or not, a killing this brutal would, imo, have found some evidence where they would have kept the car.

Couple of other points reading back through. I think MM was in the wedding for Jason and Michelle, not 100% sure but 95%. She was in town for sure and I can tell you that this is where I met the infamous pooch that PSA is so concearned with. They catered lunch at the football game for their "reception" which the dog also attended. Also, there is more to the fact that Cassidy has not seen LF or MF from what I understand. Not out of spite as some has suggested, don't want to say too much but just think of it from more of a fatherly perspective so to say. Guilty or not......

 

[Taximom]

I'm baaaaaackkkkk! After PSA came back, I had to make a grand entrance. Been traveling too for the new year, etc, etc, etc. Thought I would make a grand entrance as well. BTW, welcome back PSA.

I think the return of the vehicle means forensics is picking up. No doubt in my mind that they would not have returned the vehicle without forensic evidence in hand. They could have used this in the trial. Either for or against JY. I have moved from on the fence for JY to off the fence against JY. If this vehicle is being returned, I am having some serious doubts about the evidence in the car. I would have thought that this would have been a definate point against him. Pre-meditated or not, a killing this brutal would, imo, have found some evidence where they would have kept the car.

Couple of other points reading back through. I think MM was in the wedding for Jason and Michelle, not 100% sure but 95%. She was in town for sure and I can tell you that this is where I met the infamous pooch that PSA is so concearned with. They catered lunch at the football game for their "reception" which the dog also attended. Also, there is more to the fact that Cassidy has not seen LF or MF from what I understand. Not out of spite as some has suggested, don't want to say too much but just think of it from more of a fatherly perspective so to say. Guilty or not......

Welcome back, pack!! Hope your holidays were nice.

You have me wondering about the "fatherly perspective". My evil mind simply goes back to he doesn't want Cassidy telling the Fishers what she knows.

I also figured MM had been in the wedding, but that's just a guess on my part.

Regarding dna in plumbing etc., just how long does blood, hairs etc stay in the pipes?! If you run water long enough, wouldn't it eventually be sent on its merry way?

I wonder if the murderer was smart enough to use bleach if a shower was taken....

 

[pack_fan]

Welcome back, pack!! Hope your holidays were nice.

You have me wondering about the "fatherly perspective". My evil mind simply goes back to he doesn't want Cassidy telling the Fishers what she knows.

I also figured MM had been in the wedding, but that's just a guess on my part.

Regarding dna in plumbing etc., just how long does blood, hairs etc stay in the pipes?! If you run water long enough, wouldn't it eventually be sent on its merry way?

I wonder if the murderer was smart enough to use bleach if a shower was taken....

Holidays were great Taximom, thanks for asking. Lots of travel and so forth, always nice to be back home though.

DNA in plumbing is always an interesting subject, just a novice here, but seems like a lot of care would have to be taken to completely get rid of it (such as the use of bleach). I suppose we all have a bit of grit and hair in the shower drain that is so difficult to get rid of. These might catch some of the evidence if the perp decided to shower after the fact.

I have tended to beleive that if JY was the perp that it was an impulse killing such as MY finding out about affair or marital dispute leading up to the fact but some of the posters have made my mind run in other directions. Just trying to sort out all of the details. With the car being returned, I am also under the impression that forensics is coming back and I would hope that an arrest is coming soon.

 

[Samiya]

Sami,

I imagine right now you are rather busy but when you get a chance could you study on something ? Since there is no news on this case I have spent some time reflecting on things and have some questions that perhaps you are best capable of answering.

I'll answer a few asked, and not asked as they tie in together.

First, LE had control of the crime scene for 14 days (roughly 10.5 working days but I suspect they used virtually every day). I'm thinking that since Michelle was found in the bedroom on the floor that, a fair amount of time would have been spent in that room but certainly not a majority of the time. I recall in a couple of interviews with Sheriff Harrison that he commented on how big the house was. Given this, how likely is it in your opinion that possibly more of the house was directly involved than just the master bedroom ?

Hiya RC,

14 days tells me that it would've been a very thorough examination. It would've involved gathering evidence every day, involving shift/weekend work as well as overtime for the examiners, as nearly 3000 square meters is a lot of space.

I do need to view some of all the news footage again as well as Nancy's stories (video) as I recall investigators taking photos or video footage in one of the rooms during a news pan of the outside of the house (if you look closely you will see a red light in one of the upstairs rooms).

They would've spent quite a bit of time going over the whole house with alot of concentration in the main bedroom but it's hard to say without knowing the crime scene. Other areas of concentration would be entry and dexits points, windows, garage, doors etc on both inside and outside for evidence of how the perp got in. IF the thing about the print is correct on the inside of the front door is correct, then we already know how the perp exited the house.

We have the comments from Meredith that the "place doesn't look like it normally does". This has always been a bit unclear to me as to whether she is referencing the house or just the bedroom.

I think that we can take Meredith's statement as literal. "This place" as opposed to "the bedroom". Coupled with "the dog was freaking out when I got here". It seems to me that Michelle was a particularly houseproud lady, so her sister would notice the state of the house if anything was out of place, as it would be 'unlike Michelle' to leave it such a state before going to work.


Then I start wondering if Meredith noticed something the second she entered the house but became distracted by Cassidy. Meredith was under the impression that MY was suppose to be at work (per the 911 tape).

As we've (WSer's) discussed before whether Meredith knew Michelle was supposed to be at work depends on who told her (how she knew). Did Michelle tell her or did Jason tell her in the voicemail "hey sis, Michelle's at work, I need you to pick up a fax for me before she sees it".

Now if he contacted her early morning, then Meredith may have been due at work herself so couldn't get over til her lunch break. The timing of the call as well as when the printout were made are more important than people think. What was done first? If the printout was done first then voicemail to Meredith then that is the usual turn of things in regard to them BUT if he rang and left the message at one time and the printout was done AFTER or at the same time, then IMO that's rather suspicious. But that too also depends on what message he left Meredith....ie; "Sis, there's a fax coming at **. Can you pop over and grab it before Michelle gets home as it's a surprise for her and I don't want her to see it" (means it was going to be sent) or "Sis, there's a fax at the house I need you to get before Michelle gets home from work as it's a surprise for her and I don't want her to see it " (meaning it's already there). However should it have been there before Michelle's est TOD, then mmmmm. If he printed it out Thursday night before leaving why didn't it go with him when he left?

Do you think it is possible that Cassidy could have tracked blood to the entrance area of the house ( I know we have no idea how far that would be). I am wondering since Cassidy asked for a wash cloth if it is possible in your opinion that there could have been blood smears on the wall(s) coming down the stairs and into the main areas of the house ?

Depending on the amount of blood, it's possible that Cassidy could've tracked it to the stairs and beyond. (And if the dog was in the house, it's paw prints would've been there also). With each footstep, the blood travels less (like walking on paint until on bits of footprints are seen). The blood would've built up between her toes as well if she was barefooted, which I suspect she was. If it's footprints on top of footprints then she could've picked up more blood from other previously made footprints and tracked it further. I have no idea of the temperature of the night, so I can't say how long the blood could've taken to congeal.

As this has been described as a gruesome, violent crime. I will assume that there would be a fair amount of blood. If the back of her skull was caved in to the point of opening the skin and fracturing (either fissure or compound fractures) the skull, there may have been a severing of the occipital or other arteries which will cause a good deal of blood loss. Not knowing the extent of the injuries but from what Meredith says in regards to blood all over the house, I'd say that Meredith knew that something was wrong before she got upstairs. Whether it be only Cassidy's footprints and some spatters elsewhere as well, I have no idea.

I think I mentioned here (or it may be on my blog which I haven't 'released yet', lol) that once the heart stops beating, so does the blood stop pumping, so I'm IMOing that death wasn't fast coming.

(It pains me to write this and apologies to any family who may be reading this part below...)

Michelle may have suffered a non complete preterm delivery, in which case mucous and possibly also amniotic fluid would be mixed in with blood in certain areas surrounding Michelle's body. If this had occurred, then it was indeed not only violent but also a most horrific and painful death and one that no woman should ever suffer. After death, the female body can not go into labour.

If the final autopsy report is released I can go into it further as I will then know if there is evidence that a partial preterm occurred.

I am suspecting that there were a significant number of wounds on Michelle on other areas of her body in varying degrees for force.

Enough for now but still pondering - will ask you more later when you have a bit more time. TIA

Not a problem I'll be happy to clarify anything too. If I've missed something, just yell out. There's alot that can be taken out of the 911 call and I'll start another thread for that information, including a possible layout of the bedroom.

While I'm here........If it was Jason, the best place for him to get changed is in that bedroom. He would also not necessarily be covered in alot of blood.

If Jason is innocent (and these are some of what helped me swan dive off the fence) then he should have had no problem telling investigators....

1 Who, if anyone other than Meredith, has keys to the house and their names and addresses.
2 Whether or not there are some of his clothes unaccounted for in the wardrobe.
3 The 'relationship' with MM upfront. Although it points to him possibly being a roustabout, it is zip zero NADA information compared to the death of his wife.
4 If a lady met him in VA hotel, not necessarily MM. If there was a ladyfriend who met him there, then she is a witness to when he was there.

There are plenty of questions he can answer WITHOUT a lawyer present that would not necessarily cause undue suspicion on his character. Note number 2 in particular.

Sami

 

[raisincharlie]

Thanks Sami - appreciate the input. I have gotten quite interested in how far from the body evidence would/could move. I am thinking along the lines of the possibility that JY would have changed clothes in his own bedroom and think there is a possibility there may have been some blood evidence found in the closet, maybe on the clothes or shoes on the floor of the closet.

I also wonder about Strach's idea that the clothes worn during the crime were put in a plastic bag and taken by the perp. I wonder about possible patterns left on the floor where these clothes may have been placed while changing - wondering if that would be identifiable if there were no dog or child present to track through. I know with luminol that LE can often find tracks that show how an area was left - thinking it may be possible to figure where the clothes may have been left while changing. I'm thinking luminol would have been used as the very last part of the scene investigation after LE felt all forensics were collected, as from news reports LE was at the scene at night.

Thinking on all this and remembering that this house had four other owners, there was a child and a dog loose in and around the house, I'm starting to be able to explain in my own brain (rightly or wrongly) why this scene may have taken so long to process. Very complicated scene I think. Do you yourself have any idea what the "special machine" brought to the house might have been (maybe fairly new technology)? Some kind of spectral imaging maybe that would not destroy forensic evidence as luminol does?

One other - the location of this house between two others, tends to make one wonder why someone would decide to enter this house - from the aerials - there would have been much easier "targets" for an intruder to be inticed by - would you agree?

Know you are probably busy so not to worry about my rambling around.

Having fun with baby C ? I just bet you are !