Minimum Wage Boost Races Through House

[reb]

so pepper.... hard-working US CITIZENS (many of which are now living in poverty) should still be making $5/an hour in years to come, when the price of things keeps going up and up and up, just because we're afraid of it causing MORE inflation?? inflation is going to happen no matter what.. but you want the poorest of the poor WORKING citizens to starve even more.....?????

if that's really what you believe, be prepared for the USA to become more and more of a third-world slum, because that's what you're gonna get.

by the way.. may i ask, do you make minimum wage?

 

[reb]

OK. here's the deal.

if businesses in the US are unable (or, unwilling!) to pay a basic LIVING WAGE to working citizens, and they are going to have to go out of business if they do (or that's what they're threatening..) then there is something very, very wrong here.

of course what may happen is that people will go even more to places like walmart where they give even more support chinese slave labor. if china ever wants to take over ther US in the near future, they sure will be ready! or probably, they'll just buy the whole damn country.

 

[Details]

Ah okay, I get what you are saying. I was thinking in a different direction. Thanks for 'splaining.

Crow, you are right - but what about people like me who's minimum wage did NOT go up, yet the prices here did? 'That can't be good'. But prices and wages going up is the way the world turns. That has happened since the start of.... well, wages and prices I guess. lol

Yeah - but you wouldn't want your wages to go down - to help another state's workers have cheaper goods, right?

 

[JanetElaine]

Yeah - but you wouldn't want your wages to go down - to help another state's workers have cheaper goods, right?

You mean turn back time and prices and wages going down? Back to earning $5 a week and 5 cent rent? Sure, as long as everything keeps equal tread. Prices going up but some people's minimum wage not, that isn't right. So answer me, what about that?

 

[Nova]

***What Pepper and Calus aren't telling us is that workers who earn more can also spend more. So the effect of minimum wage law on the economy is more complicated than simplistic, pro-free market theory might suggest.****

How are workers who earn more going to buy 'more' when the prices go up for what they want to buy? The little bit more they make at Costco will be spent at the grocery store to cover the grocer's increase.

Your question presumes that minimum wage increases are always precisely equaled by and cancelled out by inflation. This was claimed above but not proven. But if it were true, then wouldn't that be an argument to freeze ALL wages to avoid that dreaded inflation?

Free marketers only want to keep the wages of the poor down. Obscene compensation for failed CEOs is just fine, apparently.

But another way to offset increased demand (such as that propelled by increased earning power) is to increase supply. And in fact, the American economy was quite good at creating new ways for workers to spend money through the years when unions drove wages up. More competition for those increased dollars keep prices down.

 

[Crow_Ascending]

The minimum wage is just that - the absolute minimum that an employer can pay an employee. It was never meant to be a living wage. According to the US Labor & Statistics Bureau, only 2.5% of US workers earn the minimum wage and 40-42% of those are under age 19.

 

[Crow_Ascending]

Nova: I'm certain you don't want a thesis on free-market economies, but the minimum wage increases are ALWAYS cancelled out by inflation simply because the minimum wage is an artificially set standard by which other wages are measured. Simply put: the stock clerk receives a raise from $5/hr to $7/hr; the cashier who earned $7/hr now demands $9/hr; the bookkeeper who earned $9/hr now wants $11. The accountant who earned $11/hr now wants $13 and the assistant manager who earned $13/hr now wants $15/hr. That's going to be reflected in the COGS in any business and (oh, I hate to use this phrase) trickle down to the next sector, whether that is a direct seller or a seller-to-the-seller. And the consumer of the goods pays the bills. Always. I make $15k more now than I did 8 years ago and don't see that I have anymore discretional income. When the stock clerk gets his raise, in a few months I'll probably get one too to cover increased prices. We'll both have a fatter paycheck, but his will cover no more than mine will in the long run.

 

[Nova]

Nova: I'm certain you don't want a thesis on free-market economies, but the minimum wage increases are ALWAYS cancelled out by inflation simply because the minimum wage is an artificially set standard by which other wages are measured. Simply put: the stock clerk receives a raise from $5/hr to $7/hr; the cashier who earned $7/hr now demands $9/hr; the bookkeeper who earned $9/hr now wants $11. The accountant who earned $11/hr now wants $13 and the assistant manager who earned $13/hr now wants $15/hr. That's going to be reflected in the COGS in any business and (oh, I hate to use this phrase) trickle down to the next sector, whether that is a direct seller or a seller-to-the-seller. And the consumer of the goods pays the bills. Always. I make $15k more now than I did 8 years ago and don't see that I have anymore discretional income. When the stock clerk gets his raise, in a few months I'll probably get one too to cover increased prices. We'll both have a fatter paycheck, but his will cover no more than mine will in the long run.

I appreciate the example and agree there is some truth that other wages may also rise in reaction to a rise in the minimum. (Just happened where I work.) But you obviously know enough about finances to know that whether you "feel" you have more discretionary income now or even whether you do doesn't prove anything in terms of whether a rise in the minimum wage is always completely cancelled out by inflation.

There are many, many studies on both sides of this issue.

Progressive economics, speaking generally, understands that producers need consumers with the ability to buy their products.

 

[calus_3]

What Pepper and Calus aren't telling us is that workers who earn more can also spend more. So the effect of minimum wage law on the economy is more complicated than simplistic, pro-free market theory might suggest.

I realize this is a complicated issue with plenty of "experts" on both sides. But it's funny how countries and states with higher minimum wages tend to have wealthier economies.

BULLONEY!

Cal

 

[calus_3]

You're right, Nova. In fact, since my minimum wage didn't go up but prices did, I now have 'double less' to spend. Now in our case it isn't a killer issue, since I am ''just the wifey making some extra bucks'', but it still sucks. No extra's for us for a while - I could list a few things we would have been able to buy/get if my wages had increased that would have helped our local economy, too.

Plus, for some people (like me) 90 cents an hour extra is a big deal. I guess some people make so much money they don't appreciate the little stuff anymore.

The problem is that you are so short-sighted you don't see the big picture. All other things being equal, your hours will be cut or benefits or raises will be cut to compensate for this.

Sorry, but if you are relying on the government to legislate your raises, you have a very bad problem. Minimum wages is the starting point to something bigger, not a destination.

Cal

 

[calus_3]

so pepper.... hard-working US CITIZENS (many of which are now living in poverty) should still be making $5/an hour in years to come, when the price of things keeps going up and up and up, just because we're afraid of it causing MORE inflation?? inflation is going to happen no matter what.. but you want the poorest of the poor WORKING citizens to starve even more.....?????

if that's really what you believe, be prepared for the USA to become more and more of a third-world slum, because that's what you're gonna get.

by the way.. may i ask, do you make minimum wage?

I'll answer for her....hell no. You should improve your skills or use your experience gained to get a better job. If, in years to come, you are still making $5 an hour...the problem isn't inflation or price increases, the problem is YOU.

Cal

 

[calus_3]

OK. here's the deal.

if businesses in the US are unable (or, unwilling!) to pay a basic LIVING WAGE to working citizens, and they are going to have to go out of business if they do (or that's what they're threatening..) then there is something very, very wrong here.

of course what may happen is that people will go even more to places like walmart where they give even more support chinese slave labor. if china ever wants to take over ther US in the near future, they sure will be ready! or probably, they'll just buy the whole damn country.

Companies are not in the business of supporting YOU. They are in the business of MAKING MONEY.

A company will pay the fair market value of the services you provide to them as an employee. If you are a CEO or CFO, you get paid more because your services are more valuable. If you are a janitor, then you get paid a janitor's salary.

If you want to make more than minimum wage, work for it. Increase your skills, learn to do more for your employer. I once made minimum wage for about 6 months until I was given a heardy raise. Why? Because instead of sitting in the loading dock bitching about the lucky people and how mistreated I am, I learned to run the fork lift, I learned to run the cash registers, I learned to balance the books, I learned....

The problem is that you have an entire sect of workers who believe a) the company exists to give them a job, b) the employee should get a LIVING WAGE while the employee provides a service less than that value, and c) people who aren't making minimum wage do so because they are lucky.

If you are an adult and are making minimum wage, there is something significantly flawed about your life and what you have been doing with it. You need to get on the BALL and improve yourself and your circumstances. Don't give me the "you don't understand" nonsense. It is true and you know it.

Cal

 

[calus_3]

The minimum wage is just that - the absolute minimum that an employer can pay an employee. It was never meant to be a living wage. According to the US Labor & Statistics Bureau, only 2.5% of US workers earn the minimum wage and 40-42% of those are under age 19.

...and those above age 19 who make minimum wage are losers...

You forgot that part.

It is funny that if the people bitching about making minimum wage would work as hard improving themselves and their skills as they do justifying why the world is at fault because THEY mismanaged their lives so badly, they would probably be doing pretty well.

I am sorry, there is no excuse for any adult to be making minimum wage period. You don't have to come from money, have a college education, or be luckly to make a living wage yourself. The problem is that many prefer to do the very minimum they have to in order to stay employed and then because they get the very basic minimums from their employer in return.

People have an almost fatal flaw sometimes in that they can't recognize a basic principle of life...if you don't like your circumstances, CHANGE THEM.

Cal

 

[Kymistry35]

Wrong....that isn't all that it does.

It stiffles the economy and prevents new job generation. Employers have to take into account all payroll related items when hiring someone. Most payers of minimum wage are small businesses that don't have much margin. So now that business that was thinking of hiring someone can't afford the extra salary and that person doesn't get hired.

But the bottom line is that if you make minimum wage for more than a year, you are behaving like a LOSER. Minimum wage is for high school students and people who can't put sentences together. I am sure that there are exceptions...for instance a wife working at Wal Mart to make some extra Christmas cash. However, if your primary income is derived from minimum wage, you are a sorry lot. If you are raising a family on minimum wage, shame on you. Even the undeducated should be making more than minimum wage doing SOMETHING. Minimum wage for primary earners is for people who quit trying a LONG LONG time ago.

Well, that should ignite the kindling!

Cal

You are fricking joking right? I cannot begin to tell you how much that statement affected me. Not everyone may be as priveledged as you and they cannot afford to go to college or to otherwise further their education. They do the best they can with what they have, and if not for those "losers", who would do all the jobs that make your life convienant such as fast food, cashier, dry cleaners, etc? My mother grew up on a farm and worked hard all her life, she was not able to go to school but in no way shape or form is she dumb. She has worked her *ss off all her life at minimum wage jobs to support me and my sister and how dare you talk down about anyone if you do not know their situation. I hope that one day you will have to experience what the less priveledged go through and maybe then you will get off your *amn high horse!!!:furious: :furious:

 

[calus_3]

I appreciate the example and agree there is some truth that other wages may also rise in reaction to a rise in the minimum. (Just happened where I work.) But you obviously know enough about finances to know that whether you "feel" you have more discretionary income now or even whether you do doesn't prove anything in terms of whether a rise in the minimum wage is always completely cancelled out by inflation.

There are many, many studies on both sides of this issue.

Progressive economics, speaking generally, understands that producers need consumers with the ability to buy their products.

The economy is flying right now...there are no shortage of consumers for products.

Your critcal flaw is that your economic models appear to believe that most people are working at minimum wage....they aren't. Minimum wage is set to protect youth from being taken advantage of....it is NOT meant to support an adult and certainly NOT MEANT TO SUPPORT A FAMILY.

You gotta work pretty damned hard at screwing up your life in virtually every area to end up on minimum wage as an adult. You have to kick that work ethic up to an even greater level....BAM....to continue to stay at minimum wage for more than a few months. That's dedication, foks.

Cal

 

[calus_3]

You are frickin joking right? I cannot begin to tell you how muchthat statement affected me. Not everyone may be as priveledged as you and they cannot afford to go to college or to otherwise further their education. They do the best they can with what they have, and if not for those "losers" who would do all the jobs that make your life convienant such as fast food, cashier, dry cleaners, etc. My mother grew up on a farm and worked hard all her life, she was not able to go to school but in no way shape or form is she dumb. She has worked her *ss off all her life at minimum wage jobs to support me and my sister and how dare you talk down about anyone if you do not know their situation. I hope that one day you will have to experience what the less priveledged go through and maybe then you will get off your *amn high horse!!!:furious: :furious:

No, no joking.

If you consider everyone NOT making minimum wage as priviliged, I think I found your problem.

Privilege has nothing to do with it. Privilige didn't earn me my money...hard work did. I started out at MINIMUM WAGE when I was 13 years old for about 6 months until I got a big raise by working hard and learning to do things that made me more valuable as an employee. They didn't give me a raise for showing up and breathing. I mean you have to absolutely spend 110% of your time at screwing something up to remain at minimum wage for very long.

Bottom line....and I really don't care if it makes you mad or not....if you are an adult (absent some reallly odd happenstance) and you make minimum wage for more than a year, you aren't doing something right. Period. You don't have to have any education to make more than minimum wage.

So don't give me the whole woe is me crap. Minimum wage is a starting point, not a destination. If you stay there, expect to work like a dog to make ends meet or have to work multiple jobs.

It is funny the people who remain at minimum wage when there is a world of opportunity there and then call anyone who isn't making it 'lucky'.

Cal

 

[JanetElaine]

The problem is that you are so short-sighted you don't see the big picture. All other things being equal, your hours will be cut or benefits or raises will be cut to compensate for this.

Sorry, but if you are relying on the government to legislate your raises, you have a very bad problem. Minimum wages is the starting point to something bigger, not a destination.

Cal

Gee I'm so glad you totally explained what's wrong with me.

You have no clue who I am, where I come and came from, why I make minimum wage and how short- or far sighted I am, nor are you qualified to set my goals and destinations for me.

But, no problem. It's not like I took your comment to heart in the first place. :slap:

 

[JanetElaine]

Teonstaleprincess, don't let him/her get to you.... water off a duck's back.... water off a duck's back. Cal is doing a whole bunch of talking, but doesn't seem to be living in the real world.

Water off a duck's back, honey.....

Now excuse me, I have to get going and make minimum wage for a few hours.... lmao!

 

[calus_3]

Gee I'm so glad you totally explained what's wrong with me.

You have no clue who I am, where I come and came from, why I make minimum wage and how short- or far sighted I am, nor are you qualified to set my goals and destinations for me.

But, no problem. It's not like I took your comment to heart in the first place. :slap:

I don't have to know anything about you.

If I lost my job today and couldn't find anything else doing anything else but stocking shelves at Wal Mart for minimum wage...I would certainly do it. I don't fault anyone for starting at minimum wage. But you can bet your butt I would be working like a dog, working extra hours, learning to do more than one thing, asking for new responsibilities, etc. Anything to advance myself. The first job that came open for a cashier, I would take it. Then I would go to a shift manager or something better. I certainly wouldn't stay there.

Advancing yourself and bettering yourself isn't a trait of the rich, the educated, or the lucky.

The truth hurts sometimes, don't shoot the messenger. Instead of being angry at me for telling the truth, use that anger to advance yourself.

Cal

 

[calus_3]

Teonstaleprincess, don't let him/her get to you.... water off a duck's back.... water off a duck's back. Cal is doing a whole bunch of talking, but doesn't seem to be living in the real world.

Water off a duck's back, honey.....

Now excuse me, I have to get going and make minimum wage for a few hours.... lmao!

I am not living in the real world? Okay.

Cal