MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #13

[ThePhantom]

Just pushing around the puzzle pieces of Jacob's case in my mind for the umpteenth time -- Since DNA was collected from Jared's case, and DR submitted his DNA, we can assume, I would think, that those two cases are not connected. Jared was let go, but Jacob was not (or least to the best of our knowledge he was not). Jacob, Joshua still missing. If DR was not directly involved in these cases, could it still be that his tie to St. John's is significant? The perpetrator may have been able to get away with these abductions because he had help, i.e. a spotter to give him a heads up that, for example, Joshua is walking alone across the campus. Coincidentally, someone called in a tip to a hotline that they saw a jogger heading towards St. John's campus around midnight, the same time Joshua left a card party and was returning to his dorm. Could the same possible spotter/accomplice have alerted the predator to Jacob riding his bike with brother and friends to mini mart? Predator gets to the location and waits. Could there be additional accomplices -- yes, it is very possible. My guess is these cretins were paid off by the main predator and maybe the spotter got a little $$ out of it. Does it all sound crazy and impossible? It's not -- at least not in my opinion. In trying to find the common denominator(s) between Jacob and Joshua -- it is DR and St. John's. They haven't been able to convict DR of anything -- maybe it's because he didn't do the deed but he possibly had a role in it. How deeply can we explore this? Not as deeply as I would like, given the secretive nature and outright lies of St. John's. Why weren't the alibis of the sex offenders living on the campus looked into when Jacob was abducted? Isn't that the norm -- to at least check the alibis of local sex offenders? But wait, let us not forget that some of the monks with the most extensive histories of sexual abuse of minors were still being hidden/protected by the abbot and his minions. Surely the FBI would not have discounted this angle just because it was an abbey? How will we ever know? Did the perpetrator take these secrets to his grave? Even if he did, are there other who may know of his deviant exploits. I think so. How could one obtain any proof? Ask the sheriff to see all his records on St. John's university, including the dialogue that occurred between abbey officials at the time Jacob and Joshua went missing, along with the sheriff's findings from the search of certain monks' rooms. This has all been discussed here numerous times. I'm just looking for the missing puzzle pieces so that we can at least formulate a fleshed out theory. As I've said many times, I don't have a horse in this race, but I am a fan of Dr. Immelman's so I tend to see the merit in his analysis of the links between these cases.

 

[shergal]

Just pushing around the puzzle pieces of Jacob's case in my mind for the umpteenth time -- Since DNA was collected from Jared's case, and DR submitted his DNA, we can assume, I would think, that those two cases are not connected. Jared was let go, but Jacob was not (or least to the best of our knowledge he was not). Jacob, Joshua still missing. If DR was not directly involved in these cases, could it still be that his tie to St. John's is significant? The perpetrator may have been able to get away with these abductions because he had help, i.e. a spotter to give him a heads up that, for example, Joshua is walking alone across the campus. Coincidentally, someone called in a tip to a hotline that they saw a jogger heading towards St. John's campus around midnight, the same time Joshua left a card party and was returning to his dorm. Could the same possible spotter/accomplice have alerted the predator to Jacob riding his bike with brother and friends to mini mart? Predator gets to the location and waits. Could there be additional accomplices -- yes, it is very possible. My guess is these cretins were paid off by the main predator and maybe the spotter got a little $$ out of it. Does it all sound crazy and impossible? It's not -- at least not in my opinion. In trying to find the common denominator(s) between Jacob and Joshua -- it is DR and St. John's. They haven't been able to convict DR of anything -- maybe it's because he didn't do the deed but he possibly had a role in it. How deeply can we explore this? Not as deeply as I would like, given the secretive nature and outright lies of St. John's. Why weren't the alibis of the sex offenders living on the campus looked into when Jacob was abducted? Isn't that the norm -- to at least check the alibis of local sex offenders? But wait, let us not forget that some of the monks with the most extensive histories of sexual abuse of minors were still being hidden/protected by the abbot and his minions. Surely the FBI would not have discounted this angle just because it was an abbey? How will we ever know? Did the perpetrator take these secrets to his grave? Even if he did, are there other who may know of his deviant exploits. I think so. How could one obtain any proof? Ask the sheriff to see all his records on St. John's university, including the dialogue that occurred between abbey officials at the time Jacob and Joshua went missing, along with the sheriff's findings from the search of certain monks' rooms. This has all been discussed here numerous times. I'm just looking for the missing puzzle pieces so that we can at least formulate a fleshed out theory. As I've said many times, I don't have a horse in this race, but I am a fan of Dr. Immelman's so I tend to see the merit in his analysis of the links between these cases.

I don't think we can assume anything from DNA. It has been reported (on Immelman's site and others) that Jared's DNA was not preserved properly and the sample degraded. LE, of course, didn't know they would need that DNA sample again 10 months later when Jacob was taken.

I agree with the rest of your comments.

 

[human]

Just pushing around the puzzle pieces of Jacob's case in my mind for the umpteenth time -- Since DNA was collected from Jared's case, and DR submitted his DNA, we can assume, I would think, that those two cases are not connected. Jared was let go, but Jacob was not (or least to the best of our knowledge he was not). Jacob, Joshua still missing. If DR was not directly involved in these cases, could it still be that his tie to St. John's is significant? The perpetrator may have been able to get away with these abductions because he had help, i.e. a spotter to give him a heads up that, for example, Joshua is walking alone across the campus. Coincidentally, someone called in a tip to a hotline that they saw a jogger heading towards St. John's campus around midnight, the same time Joshua left a card party and was returning to his dorm. Could the same possible spotter/accomplice have alerted the predator to Jacob riding his bike with brother and friends to mini mart? Predator gets to the location and waits. Could there be additional accomplices -- yes, it is very possible. My guess is these cretins were paid off by the main predator and maybe the spotter got a little $$ out of it. Does it all sound crazy and impossible? It's not -- at least not in my opinion. In trying to find the common denominator(s) between Jacob and Joshua -- it is DR and St. John's. They haven't been able to convict DR of anything -- maybe it's because he didn't do the deed but he possibly had a role in it. How deeply can we explore this? Not as deeply as I would like, given the secretive nature and outright lies of St. John's. Why weren't the alibis of the sex offenders living on the campus looked into when Jacob was abducted? Isn't that the norm -- to at least check the alibis of local sex offenders? But wait, let us not forget that some of the monks with the most extensive histories of sexual abuse of minors were still being hidden/protected by the abbot and his minions. Surely the FBI would not have discounted this angle just because it was an abbey? How will we ever know? Did the perpetrator take these secrets to his grave? Even if he did, are there other who may know of his deviant exploits. I think so. How could one obtain any proof? Ask the sheriff to see all his records on St. John's university, including the dialogue that occurred between abbey officials at the time Jacob and Joshua went missing, along with the sheriff's findings from the search of certain monks' rooms. This has all been discussed here numerous times. I'm just looking for the missing puzzle pieces so that we can at least formulate a fleshed out theory. As I've said many times, I don't have a horse in this race, but I am a fan of Dr. Immelman's so I tend to see the merit in his analysis of the links between these cases.

Who knew about perv priests, then, though?
I do not think the public had a clue.

 

[human]

Smokey was fearsome

Could you tell us how you know that please?

 

[Sasquatch321]

Who knew about perv priests, then, though?
I do not think the public had a clue.

This is possibly why Jareds case has never been solved. Did they question what the perp said to Jared by thinking it could be religous back then, as we are now today? So are the Kraemers catholic? Can we maybe find out how he knew them if they are?

The perp was so familiar with cold spring that he knew jared would turn his back to him to show him how to get to the Kraemers, and that Jared would also know the Kraemers by good luck.

 

[ThePhantom]

I believe people have information that could potentially provide new insights -- but for one reason or another they're not talking. What are some of the possible reasons individuals might be reluctant to open up about what they may have seen, experienced or heard? Perhaps fear of getting involved, embarrassment, concern about some kind of retribution. I was a bit afraid myself when I began digging into the Guimond case and I don't spook easily. If a church is willing to cover up criminal behavior, and outright lie about deviant activities of its priests -- what else are they hiding? After all, if a miscreant can indulge in whatever aberrant behavior he wants, sure in the knowledge that he will not be held accountable, why not go all the way? Who is going to hold the abbey accountable or ever suspect them to begin with? It's history has been to dig deep into their pockets and pay off, silence and settle. One could make the statement that the abbey could not possibly have been involved in any way in any of the sexual molestations of young boys in the surrounding community, but it seems to me that is akin to ignoring the elephant in the room. Why haven't any of these cases been solved?

 

[chaplain1]

Could you tell us how you know that please?

I was being facetious, I just think the dog was really cute

 

[Dave K]

I was being facetious, I just think the dog was really cute

I had started to say, I think that was probably said jokingly; but, thought I'd better wait... At least, that's the way I took it!

A little levity can be a welcomed input at times!

 

[chaplain1]

And Smokey does not look fierce to me. Tell he was having the time of his life when they were doing the initial pics.

 

[cGorg]

And Smokey does not look fierce to me. Tell he was having the time of his life when they were doing the initial pics.

So Smokey may or may not be the world's most watchful WatchDog in your opinion?

 

[Trackergd]

Just going to throw out another thought here about this guy maybe being church affiliated. It was said in Jareds story that the perp kept asking Jared if he knew who he was after he had attacked him, I'm wondering then, did this questioning happen after Jared mumbled the lords prayer and because of it?

Sexton? That is an interesting concept as he would be able to view church members and clergy at a distance without being noticed. Also would have the ability to dispose of a body in a graveyard, incinerator etc... at odd hours where he would not draw any attention.

 

[Ifollowthis]

Sexton? That is an interesting concept as he would be able to view church members and clergy at a distance without being noticed. Also would have the ability to dispose of a body in a graveyard, incinerator etc... at odd hours where he would not draw any attention.

I have always believed that there is a high possibility, if Jacob is dead, his body is buried in a cemetery and was probably cremated ... if DR did it. Connections......

 

[Trino]

I have always believed that there is a high possibility, if Jacob is dead, his body is buried in a cemetery and was probably cremated ... if DR did it. Connections......

Where would the cremation have taken place w/o evidence?

 

[Jbrown324320]

The Abbey has a garbage incinerator on its campus and used to do cremations with it. I am not sure if they still do. Someone (phantom, was that you?) said the Abbey used the incinerator on an off day after Josh G disappeared.

 

[ThePhantom]

Yes, apparently it was, JBrown. Maybe someday someone courageous will pen a tell all about what they observed at St. John's during its sordid history. They'll need a damn good lawyer though. Patrick Wall, a former monk, wrote a book a while back, but I'm sure there are others with experiences to tell.
----------------------------------

I admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

However, in 2002 when Guimond vanished, I knew within five minutes of reading the report that the crime occurred where he was last seen. Whoever did it, was methodical and meticulous, and also practiced at such wickedness. What a horrible, frustrating thing for Josh's family to never be given access to the truth about the ongoing misdeeds on that campus. What was it Patty Wetterling said recently as she endured yet another year of no answers about her son -- "what was it that was going on in our town that was so dangerous to our boys?"

Perhaps it was lies, cover ups, unholy alliances, power and money. If you can break through that wall of sin you might find answers about Jacob, Joshua and possibly other crimes. Surely someone within those unhallowed walls has a conscience and will one day speak? How many more decades must pass until that happens, I wonder --

 

[Sasquatch321]

Sexton? That is an interesting concept as he would be able to view church members and clergy at a distance without being noticed. Also would have the ability to dispose of a body in a graveyard, incinerator etc... at odd hours where he would not draw any attention.

Your post here led me to Bing search "Cold Spring Catholic Churches" and as soon as I saw the results, a certain chill ran down my spine. Here is what I found-

Welcome to St. Boniface Catholic Church Cold Spring, MN

www.stboniface.com

Cold Spring. Cared for by the monks of St. John's Abbey, Collegeville. Offers Mass in Spanish and signed for the hard of hearing. Mass schedule, historical timeline ...

501 Main St, Cold Spring, MN 56320 ·

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Cold+Spring+Catholic+CHurch&go=Submit+Query&qs=bs&form=QBRE

We, the Church of Saint Boniface a Roman Catholic parish in the Diocese of Saint Cloud that has been served by Benedictine monks and Sisters since its founding in 1878, participate in the mission of the Church given by the Lord Jesus to proclaim His Gospel and make disciples of all nations, to welcome these new disciples in a praying and hospitable community, and to provide on-going formation in discipleship of Jesus Christ.

Are the kraemers Catholic, is this their church that day in 1989, does he know the kraemers because of this iconic church?

 

[shergal]

The Abbey has a garbage incinerator on its campus and used to do cremations with it. I am not sure if they still do. Someone (phantom, was that you?) said the Abbey used the incinerator on an off day after Josh G disappeared.

The abbey has a crematorium. Abbot Timothy Kelly (who also seems to resemble the big eared guy in hat sketch - see photo on front cover and pg. 4) was cremated at St. John's Abbey in 2010. He was the abbey's 9th abbot, elected on Nov. 27, 1992.
http://old.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/2010/winter2010.pdf (Article on pg. 7)

 

[shergal]

This is an old post I originally made back on thread 4 or 5.
Ties to St. John's University and the Abbey

I went searching for info on recycled ash and crematoriums at St. John's and found these links. This article from 2002 came up while digging for info on how St. John's abbey disposes of their ash from their crematorium and their incinerator. (I'm guessing the ash was used in gardens out there, but not sure.) I found it interesting that the main 2 monks in charge of the gardens since 2000 are both monks that are on restriction. Bruce Wollmering, OSB, was the abbey’s gardening coordinator before he died. And in 2010 Dunstan Moorse, OSB, was coordinator of the abbey gardens. (I found this garden info in an online magazine called Banners which is published by and about St. John's.)
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/
(There is also a search feature at the bottom of that page.)

In this issue (Winter 2007) on pg. 25, it states that Bruce Wollmering was coordinator of the abbey gardens.
http://old.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/0703winter.pdf

Monastic gardeners include the following monks (including Gillespie and Moorse who were later put on restriction):
Isaac Connolly, Gregory Eibensteiner, Thomas Gillespie, Lewis Grobe, Nickolas Kleespie, David Paul Lange, John Meoska, Dunstan Moorse, Raphael Olson, Paul Richards, Aelred Senna, with weeding assistance from Fintan Bromenshenkel and William Skudlarek. +
Dunstan Moorse, OSB, is the chair of the abbey garden committee.
http://old.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/2010/winter2010.pdf
pg. 29

It was just my own speculation that ash could be used to enrich gardens (not to mention gardens could be used to bury things) and Moorse and Wollmering were both restricted priests and were in charge of the gardens.

This article (link below) from 2002 has nothing on ash disposal, but does mention that the sheriff looked into and talked with some of these restricted monks about local cases. It doesn't say what the results were.
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200205/09_horwichj_stjohns-m/index.shtml

They also have enormous kilns at St. John's for potter-in-residence Richard Bresnahan.
http://www.csbsju.edu/saint-johns-pottery/johanna-kiln

Also from their online magazine...
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/files/7913/7272/1970/ab_winter_2008.pdf
Pg. 12 & 13
Contains an article on the kiln and how hot the kiln gets.

 

[Sasquatch321]

This is an old post I originally made back on thread 4 or 5.
Ties to St. John's University and the Abbey

I went searching for info on recycled ash and crematoriums at St. John's and found these links. This article from 2002 came up while digging for info on how St. John's abbey disposes of their ash from their crematorium and their incinerator. (I'm guessing the ash was used in gardens out there, but not sure.) I found it interesting that the main 2 monks in charge of the gardens since 2000 are both monks that are on restriction. Bruce Wollmering, OSB, was the abbey’s gardening coordinator before he died. And in 2010 Dunstan Moorse, OSB, was coordinator of the abbey gardens. (I found this garden info in an online magazine called Banners which is published by and about St. John's.)
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/
(There is also a search feature at the bottom of that page.)

In this issue (Winter 2007) on pg. 25, it states that Bruce Wollmering was coordinator of the abbey gardens.
http://old.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/0703winter.pdf

Monastic gardeners include the following monks (including Gillespie and Moorse who were later put on restriction):
Isaac Connolly, Gregory Eibensteiner, Thomas Gillespie, Lewis Grobe, Nickolas Kleespie, David Paul Lange, John Meoska, Dunstan Moorse, Raphael Olson, Paul Richards, Aelred Senna, with weeding assistance from Fintan Bromenshenkel and William Skudlarek. +
Dunstan Moorse, OSB, is the chair of the abbey garden committee.
http://old.saintjohnsabbey.org/banner/2010/winter2010.pdf
pg. 29

It was just my own speculation that ash could be used to enrich gardens (not to mention gardens could be used to bury things) and Moorse and Wollmering were both restricted priests and were in charge of the gardens.

This article (link below) from 2002 has nothing on ash disposal, but does mention that the sheriff looked into and talked with some of these restricted monks about local cases. It doesn't say what the results were.
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200205/09_horwichj_stjohns-m/index.shtml

They also have enormous kilns at St. John's for potter-in-residence Richard Bresnahan.
http://www.csbsju.edu/saint-johns-pottery/johanna-kiln

Also from their online magazine...
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/files/7913/7272/1970/ab_winter_2008.pdf
Pg. 12 & 13
Contains an article on the kiln and how hot the kiln gets.

Are you saying then that both Moorse and Wolmering were in fact Sextons?

sex-ton


1. an official of a church charged with taking care of the edifice and its contents, ringing the bell, etc., and sometimes with burying the dead.


2. an official who maintains a synagogue and its religious articles, chants the designated portion of the Torah on prescribed days, and assists the cantor in conducting services on festivals.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexton

 

[shergal]

Are you saying then that both Moorse and Wolmering were in fact Sextons?

sex-ton


1. an official of a church charged with taking care of the edifice and its contents, ringing the bell, etc., and sometimes with burying the dead.


2. an official who maintains a synagogue and its religious articles, chants the designated portion of the Torah on prescribed days, and assists the cantor in conducting services on festivals.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexton

I'm not sure if they had the "sexton" title or not. They were in charge of gardens.

Here are links to Wollmerings bio and other articles on him:

Here's the link that brings up all articles relating to Bruce Wollmering.
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/index.php/search-results/?search_paths[]=&query=wollmering&submit=Go

His Bio:
http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/monastic-life/history/obituaries/father-bruce-wollmering-osb/