MN - Justine Damond, 40, fatally shot by Minneapolis LE, 15 July 2017 #1

[MissUnderstood]

So they are driving in the alley with lights off, and for whatever reason he has his window open, even though per his story he didn't converse with the woman who approached the car because she got shot right away. Is that plausible?

Would you have your window down if you were concerned about an ambush? Would you have your gun in your lap after you radioed no back up needed and you were leaving? Would you have turned your cameras on if you were worried about an ambush?? I think we will never know what really happened. The woman is dead, one cop with all the answers isn't talking and the non detailed statement from the other officer leaves more questions. Moo


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[CoolJ]

And they were in the alley---probably listening for the sound of a screaming woman. And if they had heard one, they would have exited their patrol car to investigate. If they get a call that there is a burglary in progress, they would get out of their car to investigate but I can understand not getting out of their vehicle to investigate a woman screaming when they have not yet pinpointed any screaming . It's not like they were through with the call and they were leaving. My guess is they were trying to locate the exact location of the screaming and if there was none or it had stopped, then they would have gotten out of their car at the address of the calling party to speak to her and to investigate further. I find nothing odd about them not immediately getting out of their patrol car to investigate but that's JMO.

You don't find it out that they were leaving without interviewing the witness/reporting party? Isn't that what cops do?

 

[jjenny]

I'm following this story from Australia.
From photos in media reports it seems people have placed flowers and drawn messages with chalk outside Justine's garage door. I'm guessing this garage door is on the alley as google pic of the victim's house doesn't show a garage. Justine may have gone out through her garage when she saw/heard the police were there thinking things were safe or to introduce herself and see what had happened. I wonder if raising the garage door would make a loud sound, the sound the police said they heard. I feel very sad for her family and friends. It does sound like she was simply trying to do the right thing.

The driver cop claims he heard a sound. We don't know what the actual shooter cop claims, as he hasn't talked to investigators.
I don't think she was near the garage door when she was shot.

 

[Jennifer17]

This is a wildly inaccurate assessment of the situation, and a thoroughly incorrect statement.

The organ and tissue concussion (not the same thing as a head concussion) and trauma from the close range gunshot wound that shredded her insides hastened her death, not the CPR.

Cops are taught BLS/ basic CPR procedures. They are taught to do CPR when there is an absence of a pulse. With damage so severe that cardiac arrest occurred almost immediately, there is literally nothing that the cops could have done by applying CPR to "hasten her death". In cardiac arrest from massive trauma, that patient is dead already.

There is nothing that can be done to keep blood circulating when organs and the circulatory system is effectively shredded and destroyed by the concussion of a close range GSW. The only possible exception might be a stab wound or GSW occurring in close proximity (like the parking lot of an ER) to a fully prepped and staffed trauma OR with a heart lung bypass machine primed and ready to go, and a very skilled trauma surgeon at the ready. (And as we are doing more off pump hearts nowadays, the availability of a primed bypass machine and available tech is rare.) And even then, the concussive trauma from a close range GSW that produced cardiac arrest at the scene is not survivable. The crushing of tissue from the concussive effects of the GSW mean that circulation cannot be re-established. Cardiac arrest at the scene from trauma has an abysmal survival rate, no matter the cause of the trauma.

The cops did *exactly* what they should have done after the victim was shot-- assess the victim and begin CPR immediately. It's not their job to determine if CPR is going to be "effective" or not.

She was pronounced dead at 11:51 if I recall, and the second 911 call was at 10:37. She was essentially dead at the scene, but because of the circumstances of the GSW, they rapidly transported and gave her every chance, IMO. And IIRC she went to Hennepin County Medical Center, which is a level one trauma center, and quite accustomed to dealing with GSWs and multi trauma (unfortunately).

It is not medically accurate, nor reasonable, nor fair, to criticize the cops for starting CPR, and state that they "hastened her death" by doing so. The fact is that the GSW killed her, not the CPR.

BBM, They could have not shot her in the first place. Do you really believe she died instantly from an abdominal wound?

 

[Karinna]

Was it that dark outside that these two LEO's couldn't see a pretty female approaching their vehicle? Why didn't the LEO in question yell out to her and tell her stop, do not approach the vehicle or i will shoot? Why no warning to her? How are they training these LE nowadays? This is just crazy that this woman lost her life while trying to be a good samaritan.

 

[jjenny]

BBM. I agree. More and more this looks like a case of the rookie cop being "twitchy" and worried about ambush executions. A totally valid concern these days, given the escalating number of ambush slayings of cops, and a concern that cops are briefed about virtually every shift during roll call.

I don't think what happened is at all associated with any racial, or religious, "identity politics" or "tribal association".

I think Noor made a grave, deadly mistake. I think he will be charged and tried for some kind of criminal manslaughter.

It's a tragedy from every angle. Many lives destroyed. I don't think Noor is a villain, but I do think he made a tremendous, deadly mistake, because he was scared.

We all have to accept that recruiting police officers is *extremely* difficult these days. Inexperienced, nervous rookies WILL be out on patrol. And IMO, these kind of situations will keep on occurring, hopefully not very often.

If cop is so twitchy that he shot an un-armed woman, he is in the wrong profession. The cops were there on a call about a possible rape. They were supposedly driving around looking for the signs of assault. They should have expected a possibility of a female approaching the vehicle-what if it were rape victim who escaped her attacker? She would have run to the police car for help.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://kstp.com/news/911-transcripts-justine-damond/4546802/?cat=1

11:27:02 Justine's first call
11:35:27 Justine's second call

11:39:34 squad gives all clear (code4)
11:41:24 EMS dispatched
11:41:46 1 down

11:49:52 incident report PD did CPR for 4 minutes.

8:06 between 1 down & 4 minutes of CPR, 4 minutes plus of what?

Incident report

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@mpd/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-202064.pdf

 

[CoolJ]

This is a wildly inaccurate assessment of the situation, and a thoroughly incorrect statement.

The organ and tissue concussion (not the same thing as a head concussion) and trauma from the close range gunshot wound that shredded her insides hastened her death, not the CPR.

Cops are taught BLS/ basic CPR procedures. They are taught to do CPR when there is an absence of a pulse. With damage so severe that cardiac arrest occurred almost immediately, there is literally nothing that the cops could have done by applying CPR to "hasten her death". In cardiac arrest from massive trauma, that patient is dead already.

There is nothing that can be done to keep blood circulating when organs and the circulatory system is effectively shredded and destroyed by the concussion of a close range GSW. The only possible exception might be a stab wound or GSW occurring in close proximity (like the parking lot of an ER) to a fully prepped and staffed trauma OR with a heart lung bypass machine primed and ready to go, and a very skilled trauma surgeon at the ready. (And as we are doing more off pump hearts nowadays, the availability of a primed bypass machine and available tech is rare.) And even then, the concussive trauma from a close range GSW that produced cardiac arrest at the scene is not survivable. The crushing of tissue from the concussive effects of the GSW mean that circulation cannot be re-established. Cardiac arrest at the scene from trauma has an abysmal survival rate, no matter the cause of the trauma.

The cops did *exactly* what they should have done after the victim was shot-- assess the victim and begin CPR immediately. It's not their job to determine if CPR is going to be "effective" or not.

She was pronounced dead at 11:51 if I recall, and the second 911 call was at 10:37. She was essentially dead at the scene, but because of the circumstances of the GSW, they rapidly transported and gave her every chance, IMO. And IIRC she went to Hennepin County Medical Center, which is a level one trauma center, and quite accustomed to dealing with GSWs and multi trauma (unfortunately).

It is not medically accurate, nor reasonable, nor fair, to criticize the cops for starting CPR, and state that they "hastened her death" by doing so. The fact is that the GSW killed her, not the CPR.

Are you a Doctor?

 

[jjenny]

Was it that dark outside that these two LEO's couldn't see a pretty female approaching their vehicle? Why didn't the LEO in question yell out to her and tell her stop, do not approach the vehicle or i will shoot? Why no warning to her? How are they training these LE nowadays? This is just crazy that this woman lost her life while trying to be a good samaritan.

From what has been reported, the alley is lit. They were driving with lights off on police car. They should have been able to see who was approaching the car.

 

[GeeButtersnaps]

http://kstp.com/news/911-transcripts-justine-damond/4546802/?cat=1

11:27:02 Justine's first call
11:35:27 Justine's second call

11:39:34 squad gives all clear (code4)
11:41:24 EMS dispatched
11:41:46 1 down

11:49:52 incident report PD did CPR for 4 minutes.

8:06 between 1 down & 4 minutes of CPR, 4 minutes plus of what?

Incident report

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@mpd/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-202064.pdf

Also they arrived at 23:37-it only took 2 minutes to give an all clear and make sure all was good? If it was that quickly they thought that nothing was wrong I would think that would even moreso make them want to speak with caller or expect to talk to caller to get more details. Unless they weren't that worried about investigating it..JMO


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[Renee110]

And they were in the alley---probably listening for the sound of a screaming woman. And if they had heard one, they would have exited their patrol car to investigate. If they get a call that there is a burglary in progress, they would get out of their car to investigate but I can understand not getting out of their vehicle to investigate a woman screaming when they have not yet pinpointed any screaming . It's not like they were through with the call and they were leaving. My guess is they were trying to locate the exact location of the screaming and if there was none or it had stopped, then they would have gotten out of their car at the address of the calling party to speak to her and to investigate further. I find nothing odd about them not immediately getting out of their patrol car to investigate but that's JMO.

I, on the other hand find it alarming that they didn't get out to investigate. What if the screaming woman was lying injured or dead in the dark in that alley? I would fully expect them exit the car to search that alley.

 

[turaj]

This is a wildly inaccurate assessment of the situation, and a thoroughly incorrect statement.

The organ and tissue concussion (not the same thing as a head concussion) and trauma from the close range gunshot wound that shredded her insides hastened her death, not the CPR.

Cops are taught BLS/ basic CPR procedures. They are taught to do CPR when there is an absence of a pulse. With damage so severe that cardiac arrest occurred almost immediately, there is literally nothing that the cops could have done by applying CPR to "hasten her death". In cardiac arrest from massive trauma, that patient is dead already.

There is nothing that can be done to keep blood circulating when organs and the circulatory system is effectively shredded and destroyed by the concussion of a close range GSW. The only possible exception might be a stab wound or GSW occurring in close proximity (like the parking lot of an ER) to a fully prepped and staffed trauma OR with a heart lung bypass machine primed and ready to go, and a very skilled trauma surgeon at the ready. (And as we are doing more off pump hearts nowadays, the availability of a primed bypass machine and available tech is rare.) And even then, the concussive trauma from a close range GSW that produced cardiac arrest at the scene is not survivable. The crushing of tissue from the concussive effects of the GSW mean that circulation cannot be re-established. Cardiac arrest at the scene from trauma has an abysmal survival rate, no matter the cause of the trauma.

The cops did *exactly* what they should have done after the victim was shot-- assess the victim and begin CPR immediately. It's not their job to determine if CPR is going to be "effective" or not.

She was pronounced dead at 11:51 if I recall, and the second 911 call was at 10:37. She was essentially dead at the scene, but because of the circumstances of the GSW, they rapidly transported and gave her every chance, IMO. And IIRC she went to Hennepin County Medical Center, which is a level one trauma center, and quite accustomed to dealing with GSWs and multi trauma (unfortunately).

It is not medically accurate, nor reasonable, nor fair, to criticize the cops for starting CPR, and state that they "hastened her death" by doing so. The fact is that the GSW killed her, not the CPR.

time of second call was 11:37 not 10

 

[turaj]

BBM. I agree. More and more this looks like a case of the rookie cop being "twitchy" and worried about ambush executions. A totally valid concern these days, given the escalating number of ambush slayings of cops, and a concern that cops are briefed about virtually every shift during roll call.

I don't think what happened is at all associated with any racial, or religious, "identity politics" or "tribal association".

I think Noor made a grave, deadly mistake. I think he will be charged and tried for some kind of criminal manslaughter.

It's a tragedy from every angle. Many lives destroyed. I don't think Noor is a villain, but I do think he made a tremendous, deadly mistake, because he was scared.

We all have to accept that recruiting police officers is *extremely* difficult these days. Inexperienced, nervous rookies WILL be out on patrol. And IMO, these kind of situations will keep on occurring, hopefully not very often.

this is probably as close to accurate analysis as we will get absent anything coming from BCA. And also about this becoming more and more common...in MInneapolis there was some sort of major union issue with the more experienced officers close to retirement and there were many that left the force. Thus recruitment efforts brought in so many new guys and right now I believe our force is pretty light on experience.!!

 

[turaj]

From what has been reported, the alley is lit. They were driving with lights off on police car. They should have been able to see who was approaching the car.

absolutely the alleys are lit and if his vision was that poor again should not be on the force.

 

[Rocco]

You don't find it out that they were leaving without interviewing the witness/reporting party? Isn't that what cops do?

Yes, I do find that odd. I would expect them to call back to dispatch and report that they didn't hear any screaming and then ask if the reporting party wanted to speak with them.

But at 11:39 when they called in a Code-4, which meant no further assistance needed, I think that meant they didn't find anything going on that required any additional help or back up. I'm not sure that that meant they were leaving right away.

 

[RandomName479]

absolutely the alleys are lit and if his vision was that poor again should not be on the force.

We have seen differing reports of whether or not the alley was well lit. You are stating your opinion as fact. MOO

 

[Elley Mae]

It appears she was shoot at the end of the alley, map/image at link.

http://m.startribune.com/attorney-r...ambush-when-he-shot-justine-damond/435415343/

I'm following this story from Australia.
From photos in media reports it seems people have placed flowers and drawn messages with chalk outside Justine's garage door. I'm guessing this garage door is on the alley as google pic of the victim's house doesn't show a garage. Justine may have gone out through her garage when she saw/heard the police were there thinking things were safe or to introduce herself and see what had happened. I wonder if raising the garage door would make a loud sound, the sound the police said they heard. I feel very sad for her family and friends. It does sound like she was simply trying to do the right thing.

 

[RandomName479]

Are you a Doctor?

Since they are a Verified Anesthetist, I would say yes....

 

[Elley Mae]

Officer Matthew Harrity, who was driving, and Noor, in the front passenger seat, arrived at the scene. They drove south through the alley between Washburn and Xerxes avenues S., toward W. 51st Street, with the squad lights turned off. As they reached the street, “Harrity indicated that he was startled by a loud sound near the squad,” according to the preliminary BCA investigation.

Damond approached the driver’s side window of the squad car “immediately afterward,” according to the statement. Noor shot from the passenger seat, across his partner and through the window, striking Damond in the abdomen. She died at the scene 20 minutes later.

http://m.startribune.com/attorney-r...ambush-when-he-shot-justine-damond/435415343/


Loud sound was near the squad.

If you are in your vehicle and someone touches/hits with hand the vehicle you are in or there is a loud sound by your vehicle wouldn't the two be different. I know i could tell the difference.

 

[Elley Mae]

We have seen differing reports of whether or not the alley was well lit. You are stating your opinion as fact. MOO

There are three lights mounted on telephone poles along that route plus nine motion-detector lights on garages, and neighbors said the alley is well-lit at night.

http://m.startribune.com/australian...shot-by-minneapolis-police-officer/434782213/

I believe the people that live there.