MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #11

[lajr56]

So, just to clarify. According to testimony at the hearing, Alyssa confessed to digging two graves the Friday before Elizabeth's murder. She had the day off of school for teacher's conferences.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34016501/

 

[hoppyfrog]

We've had to pull this thread once already tonight because of the attacks and bickering.

I don't want us to have to pull it again.

No attacks. No bickering. No rudeness.

Please review the TOS if you don't understand.

Thanks,

Hoppy
mod

 

[ynotdivein]

Giving THANKS a day late to the mods (and mini-mods) who keep us all on track here. :whip:


:toastred: to you.

 

[MDATCA]

Well back to our regularly scheduled program.

Do any locals know if Elizabeth's brother has eturned to school? What about AB's brothers and sister? I was wondering if they had what was done about the twins and Elizabeth's brother being in classes together?

I sure feel bad for the other kids in both families. AB's little sister lost her friend and sister. According to what I have read AO and the twins were very good friends. They also lost their sisters as well as their friend(s). I hope they are healing. I wonder how has Elizabeth's mother been since the hearing? I hope she is starting to heal and go forward with her life. I also hope that AB's GP's are healing and taking care of the kids that so desperately need guidance at this time.

All this attention on AB and not one media source has mentioned the other victims in this case.

 

[Prof]

MDATCA, I do feel for every single person involved in this case

even the adults --

I just want to add that I do appreciate every single poster here and his or her passion for this case, children, justice, the law, morality and "doing the right thing" -- I am thankful that this forum exists and that IMO good people who care come here to spend their valuable time -- we all have the same reasons to be here in the end -- don't we?

Yes, our passion can get us in TOS trouble at times --

I am here in my constant quest to get a better grasp of the world I live in, while attempting in some small way to help others, all in the hopes of leaving a better campsite than when I arrived

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

This is one messed up thread ! Lets see....who was the victim again ?

 

[Peace Lover]

Seems we’ve a grasp on the Duel Jurisdiction System (some of us) and how even if AB gets convicted as an adult on first-degree murder she can still be held by Youth Services and when she’s 21 after a subsequent hearing to determine if she’s rehabilitated can be released or sent to prison to finish off her life w/o parole sentence; which leaves me wondering...

Does anyone know (I’m just to dang sleepy to research it right now):

A) If the judge who ruled her to be tried as an adult can rescind (do I sound legal?) or reverse the decision and try AB as juvenile?

B) Could AB's lawyers get some kind of judicial review committee to determine if the judge's ruling to try AB as an adult was unfair, unjust, unwarranted or unconstitutional and have it overturned?

C) If she were to be tried as a Juvenile, do the same stipulations apply to her sentence, meaning can she be sentenced to life w/o parole & then when she’s 21 have another hearing to determine if she is rehabilitated or a candidate for life w/o parole?

I know you great web sleuths by now have figured out that in reality I’ve posed 3 actually questions here. Just joking, not a stab at your intelligence, just hope someone somewhere laughed a bit because if you’re anything like me I can get so focused on the dramatics of life (which deserve attention) and not receive the healing therapeutic value of laughter.
Course I may just not be funny too.

Peace be with you

 

[Peace Lover]

I am a not a psychiatrist and psychiatry is not an exact science so there is no way to determine what "mental age" a person may be with any sort of accuracy.

An adult is legally defined as someone 18 years of age or over and I am only concerned with legal matters not medical ones.

She is a minor.

In a psychology class a semester or 2 ago (social-psych major here) I learned that their actually is a test to determine ones mental/emotional age.

Can’t remember the name of the model or who drew it up, but I’m certain at least one exist.

But you're right, still not "exact" though & "she is a minor."

Peace be with you

 

[Gray]

It's sad to me that this case is causing people to fight.

It's sad that Alyssa's parents are so f-ed up that she is f-ed up as a result.

It's sad to me that because of Alyssa's actions, Elizabeth is dead and her family missing her this holiday season.

It's sad to me that Alyssa's sister and brothers will be suffering for what their big sister did.

It's sad to me that no one wins in this situation.

So maybe we could be a little nice to each other... everyone is already losing in this situation as it is. Justice will be served. It has to be when a case like this is so public, IMO.

 

[Peace Lover]

It's sad to me that this case is causing people to fight.

It's sad that Alyssa's parents are so f-ed up that she is f-ed up as a result.

It's sad to me that because of Alyssa's actions, Elizabeth is dead and her family missing her this holiday season.

It's sad to me that Alyssa's sister and brothers will be suffering for what their big sister did.

It's sad to me that no one wins in this situation.

So maybe we could be a little nice to each other... everyone is already losing in this situation as it is. Justice will be served. It has to be when a case like this is so public, IMO.

I agree with you that its better to be nice than mean & in that spirit I want to suggest in question form was O.J. Simpson’s murder trial a good example of a high profile ("so public") case receiving justice?

Me thinks that by us writing about the case here at W/S that it has the potential in a positive way to influence it, or at least influence us.

I’m not so sure “that no one wins in this situation.” God as I understand Him works in mysterious ways. Maybe down the road some laws will be adjusted or made to make the system work better, or because someone is involved in this case other doors open that may not have existed if their was no case…. I can go on & on, hope you catch my drift & I didn’t sound mean in trying to convey it.

Your post looks & sounds poetic, I like it.

Peace be with you

 

[smart blonde]

Violent crime is down even though we have more violent media AND more access to guns, its down, check the stats. Every generation thinks there is the worst and that things are getting worse and the end is near and thats never the reality of the matter.

I think it's all relative.
I am not convinced that there is less violent crime now than there was in the 1950's.

 

[Shutterfly]

Children Learn What They Live

By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's my "theory" and I'm sticking with it. I live in a different world than most I guess, and I see mine from behind the eyes of an eternal optimist and as someone who believes that in a very real sense we are all connected on some level. A dog; to it's owner. A child; to it's parent. A house; to the family who dwell within it. A childhood; to the adult that comes as the result of that childhood. Do I believe that Alyssa can be rehabilitated? In all honesty I don't know, I hope so. I'd very much like for HER to understand the impact of what she's done and how horrible it was. But surely someone has to try to rehabilitate her don't they, whether she's incarcerated for life or not?

A thousand psychiatrists will never convince me that a sociopath is born. I choose to believe, no matter how naive I may be, that they are created. IMO anyone (directly involved) who tells you that a 15 year old killer lived a "perfectly normal life" and had a "perfectly normal childhood" is either in denial, attempting to negate their own responsibility, or they're grossly misinformed and thus not so involved as they claim. What I do believe, is that anything that must receive the proper nurturing to survive and grow healthy and strong, will cease to exist when the foundation on which it was built is toxic...or dysfunctional, as the case may be. I believe this includes that which a sociopath supposedly lacks.

Who was it who raised Alyssa's mother? Does it not appear that she too may have issues of her own? For what reason do you suppose Alyssa's seemingly dysfuntional mother went out and chose a seemingly dysfuntional man to father Alyssa? I'm just sayin'. It's the domino effect, or at least it looks that way from where I'm sitting.

My question is this.... was Alyssa getting therapy, or was the family getting therapy? It seems to me that if anyone in this family besides Alyssa was receiving help, a lot of things that went undetected would have been noticed and potentially dealt with before it was too late. Could she have been labeled "the problem" at an early age, and used as a scapegoat and the excuse for the family's dysfuntion? I don't know that it happened that way, but is it possible?

Horses, cell phones, computers, fencing lessons and cool clothes weren't going to solve these problems. And neither was burying your head in the sand, which it sure seems to me some people must have been doing. I ask myself over and over if Alyssa was EVER properly supervised?!!

The lives of two children were lost. One directly at the hands of another. And one whom I feel was potentially lost to the actions of others in a different sense, a long, long time ago.

Cell phones, computers, email, video games, fax machines, text messaging, television..it's all designed to allow us to all be separate and independent of one another. And when we rely on these devices to raise our children, I think they're being systematically deprived of that which makes us human. These devices lack the ability to feel human emotions....funny, most of our children seem to be turning out precisely the same way.

 

[LogicalMinds]

They already have a "duel system" in her state, said to be a "model" plan

IF they tried her as just a juvenile, she would automatically be released at age 21, record expunged....free to do whatever, wherever

They have said that they really don't have a place to keep a (dangerous) juvenile girl..they have some facility for boys that is secure, but the only juvenile facilities for girls are low security...no walls, easy to leave, more like group homes

not to mention the potential threat she might be to other juvenile girls who are in there for shoplifting and drugs etc.

My real guess is that she will be held in some sort of mental facility until she is 21 and then they will go from there

 

[MDATCA]

Sorry if this had been addressed there are so many messages that come fast and I may have missed it.

With duel juristiction AB would be re-evaluated at 21 correct? If at 21 they find she still needs help would she be able to go back for re-evals? If so how does that work? Could she theorically do it evey few months? I am curious if it is a rgualr scheduled thing after a few years or if it is up to the offender and their atty to pursue it.

If at 21 she was released with a clean bill of health and after a while killed or hurt someone would the state be liable?

 

[not_my_kids]

I don't think AB can be rehabilitated for the simple fact that that would require a level of lucidity and understanding that I don't think she possesses. And coming to possess those at this point would be nothing short of a nightmare.

Considering what she has done, she now has every reason to run from her actions, emotionally speaking. There is a point of no return, IMO, AB has passed it.

 

[not_my_kids]

Sorry if this had been addressed there are so many messages that come fast and I may have missed it.

With duel juristiction AB would be re-evaluated at 21 correct? If at 21 they find she still needs help would she be able to go back for re-evals? If so how does that work? Could she theorically do it evey few months? I am curious if it is a rgualr scheduled thing after a few years or if it is up to the offender and their atty to pursue it.

If at 21 she was released with a clean bill of health and after a while killed or hurt someone would the state be liable?

If she killed someone the day she was released, the state might face an investigation for letting her out, otherwise, she would be seen as a sane adult, in charge of her own actions.

 

[Peace Lover]

Sorry if this had been addressed there are so many messages that come fast and I may have missed it.

With duel juristiction AB would be re-evaluated at 21 correct? If at 21 they find she still needs help would she be able to go back for re-evals? If so how does that work? Could she theorically do it evey few months? I am curious if it is a rgualr scheduled thing after a few years or if it is up to the offender and their atty to pursue it.

If at 21 she was released with a clean bill of health and after a while killed or hurt someone would the state be liable?

Good questions which I’m not going to try and answer based on speculation and conjecture, I’d have to research it further but based on what I know from unreliable sources (news post) if its determined at the hearing that would take place at that time that she still needs help at 21 years old she’d go to prison with no get out of prison free card. If she is evaluated as not rehabilitated in the approximately 7 years she’d spend in the juvenile system (and judging by what I’ve read she is afforded 7 years of juvenile detention which would make her 22 when the second hearing would be conducted) she would go to prison w/o parole for life.

Your second question concerning the liability of the state should they release her & she commits another murder… Again, I don’t want to talk out of the side of my neck without the proper research behind me but it seems to me that many variables fall into place. I do know that a separate trial would be held for that murder and potentially if she is found guilty by reason of insanity she may not spend the rest of her life in prison as someone else suggested.

I'd have to look into it more, or you would, or maybe another poster that knows will and address it. Good luck and thanks again for the good questions.

Peace be with you

 

[Prof]

Who was it who raised Alyssa's mother? Does it not appear that she too may have issues of her own? For what reason do you suppose Alyssa's seemingly dysfuntional mother went out and chose a seemingly dysfuntional man to father Alyssa? I'm just sayin'. It's the domino effect, or at least it looks that way from where I'm sitting.

My question is this.... was Alyssa getting therapy, or was the family getting therapy? It seems to me that if anyone in this family besides Alyssa was receiving help, a lot of things that went undetected would have been noticed and potentially dealt with before it was too late. Could she have been labeled "the problem" at an early age, and used as a scapegoat and the excuse for the family's dysfuntion? I don't know that it happened that way, but is it possible?

Horses, cell phones, computers, fencing lessons and cool clothes weren't going to solve these problems. And neither was burying your head in the sand, which it sure seems to me some people must have been doing. I ask myself over and over if Alyssa was EVER properly supervised?!!

The lives of two children were lost. One directly at the hands of another. And one whom I feel was potentially lost to the actions of others in a different sense, a long, long time ago.

.

Respectfully excerpted by me ---

Shutterfly, don't forget that MB (AB's mother) did not only go out and choose AB's dysfunctional father, but also AB's half sister's dysfunctional father-- so twice that we know of --
and let's not forget that she was 15 when she gave birth to AB

I agree with "dysfunctional" not simply because of run-ins with law enforcement but because both of these baby daddies did not show any interest in the custody of their own children -- I just don't get having children with someone who does not really want children; frankly, I find it a shame, but probably because of my own biased experience

I do not know much about the gm, but I believe this is her third marriage (to a man who did not attend the trial for some reason), and she has at least two children who have different baby daddies, and both of her adult children seem to have some serious issues; one in trouble with the law and the other has very low self esteem, depression (discussed in her own internet writings) and IMO not much respect for her mother


As far as your question, I still have not seen a link to the type or amount of therapy AB received -- but I like your question, because I agree the whole family seems to have needed therapy

Yes, all of the "things" in the world -- all of the "things" AB had --are meaningless things -- what she really needed was never given to her

As far as supervision, we do know that she was grounded from one of those "things" --her cell phone -- I have always been curious as to what caused that --

 

[Deleted member 718]

I donno Prof. Do you think a 14 MB yo was out looking for a baby daddy? More likely a 14 yo MB was out having unprotected sex without thinking of the consequences.

It seems a lot of the adults in AB's family were making choices without considering the end results.

Good posts Shutterfly and Prof. Lots to think about here. Thanks.

 

[Prof]

I donno Prof. Do you think a 14 MB yo was out looking for a baby daddy? More likely a 14 yo MB was out having unprotected sex without thinking of the consequences.

It seems a lot of the adults in AB's family were making choices without considering the end results.

Good posts Shutterfly and Prof. Lots to think about here. Thanks.

Good point, Gliving,


and they got married and kept AB instead of giving her up for adoption --

---some have speculated that the mother may have had an alcohol or drug problem as early as before or during pregancy -- I have a difficult time believing this, but I suppose it is a possibility

but IMO there seem to be multiple generations of parenting issues