MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #16

[bwt42]

I posed this question last night & got no takers. I'm most interested in hearing from those that lean towards OW being unjustified in shooting at a fleeing MB. I have not come to a conclusion as to what happened after MB stopped running. I'm sure OW fired at MB as he ran. My question: if MB escaped or surrendered without being shot, would OW have been charged with a crime? If so what crime & do you think he should be?

 

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by DebinGA View Post
http://instagram.com/p/riPFZ8oeQy/

Short video of purported landscape guys MB spoke to on his way to the store. They both seem to be white, and one seems to reenact MB putting his hands in the air. In his version MB's arms were raised and wide, away from his body, but MB was approaching DW as DW was backing away.

IMO, this gesture could go with the statement of "Josie" when she said MB was taunting ODW and saying: What? Are you going to shoot me? (paraphrasing).

 

[i.b.nora]

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real

https://news.vice.com/article/court...convictions-and-thats-beside-the-point-anyway

Thank you for these links. The first article in particular is one of the best articles I have read regarding Ferguson.

 

[Lovejac]

IMO, this gesture could go with the statement of "Josie" when she said MB was taunting ODW and saying: What? Are you going to shoot me? (paraphrasing).

I had forgotten all about that. Yes, that does seem to match up with what the landscaper is saying.

 

[TheDuchess]

Announcement: If you are advancing toward a LEO who has his gun pointed on you who said to freeze, it doesn't matter if your arms are up in the air, down at your sides, on your head, or performing a performance art routine....you WILL get shot!!!

 

[Trident]

Announcement: If you are advancing toward a LEO who has his gun pointed on you who said to freeze, it doesn't matter if your arms are up in the air, down at your sides, on your head, or performing a performance art routine....you WILL get shot!!!

And, in my opinion, rightly so.

 

[Lovejac]

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real

https://news.vice.com/article/court...convictions-and-thats-beside-the-point-anyway

Good articles, but dang it, this part is a big pet peeve of mine. It's not the truth and it keeps getting published!

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real

And living in the apartment gave Statom a firsthand look at the scene of Brown's killing — and his body left out in the street for four hours — and galvanized him into joining the protest movement.

"They didn't even cover him up with a sheet, they just left him out there for everyone to see," Statom said of Brown.

MB was covered in less than 20 minutes :gaah:

 

[Trident]

Good articles, but dang it, this part is a big pet peeve of mine. It's not the truth and it keeps getting published!
MB was covered in less than 20 minutes :gaah:

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real


Please, do not confuse some people with the truth. Understand it, or not; like it or not, some people's thought patterns only operate on an emotional level. I know so many people like that.

 

[bettybaby00]

Good articles, but dang it, this part is a big pet peeve of mine. It's not the truth and it keeps getting published!

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real



MB was covered in less than 20 minutes :gaah:

But it sounds better the other way doesn't? :facepalm:

 

[bettybaby00]

[video=youtube;bAeJh63OXRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAeJh63OXRg[/video]

not sure this is a good link under TOS, will alert to check with a mod. This is Iyanla Vanzant, life coach and television personality who spent a week or so in Ferguson, including appearance on several nights of CNN's coverage. In the video above she talks with protesters about how to effectively protest. About the need to pause and reflect on what they are actually asking for. She states that those who feel Justice for Mike is an arrest and conviction of OW is not a reasonable demand and they will not get it. She counsels they figure out how to improve their community and their lives and let that be what justice looks like for Mike.

Or put another way...


Responsible, respectful activism.

 

[tlcya]

It is upsetting that this article, published just days ago on 9-2-14 still perpetuates basic inaccuracies presented as facts. Such as MB had his hands in the air and was surrendering. Such as MB's body lay in the street for four hours uncovered.

It did give me a really good view into the rather hopeless mindset that young black men in the area fall victim to and their mistrust of authorities and the justice system and for that I am grateful. But the inaccuracies around what we know now and have known for a while about the facts of what happened that day only serve to illustrate that part of the problem is not based in reality but in perception and no amount of protesting can change a deeply seated misperception of reality. JMO thoughts.

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real

ETA I wanted to clarify that I believe there are long standing problems in Ferguson which are economic, social and yes, even with the police force possibly. I am not trying to minimize. I am speaking to the fact that I wish MB did not have to be martyred and OW vilified with non facts and spin in order for the citizens of Ferguson to feels strongly enough about those long standing problems to want to raise their voices and be heard on what may very well be real and serious issues in their community. I think that only serves to minimize their efforts in the long run. And that is very sad to me. because these people do have something important to say and this situation could be a real movement for change if people on both sides of the issue could move past the soundbites and the rhetoric and on to the real concerns and real conversation about how to address them.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

You know, a random thought just popped into my head when contemplating this whole topic.
On the rare occasion that I was pulled over while driving (I'm a cautious motorist), I recall that I remained in my vehicle, pushed the button for the window down & kept my hands on the steering wheel while the officer approached me; being mindful of not creating any sudden movements or being disrespectful with words.
When asked to produce ID, I would first ask the officer if it was ok for me to go to my glove compartment (& would not take my hands off the "10 & 2" position off the steering wheel until he said "ok".)
Why would I be so cautious with my actions & words, you may wonder, no?

Simple answer: he has the authority & court of law backing him, he has a gun, and I have common sense. I also know life isn't fair. I also know I wouldn't want his job. He has my respect. (And it could be a she instead of a he but that has not been my experience, honestly).

My point is that is how I act & respond.

 

[katydid23]

You just had to watch the news to see that most protesters were doing nothing but walking and chanting. And there were quite a few stories of the protesters helping the police keep the peace, cleaning up, etc. Not sure why anyone would lump them in with a few bad apples.

Sure, if you watched the 'news' then thats what you would see. I was watching the 'news' and hearing how 'peaceful' the protestors were. but had livestream going at same time, and saw something quite different. The msm news is not always a very accurate source of information.

It was not just a FEW bad apples. I saw videos of looting where there were dozens of thieves breaking into the stores. not just a few. And there were hundreds chanting DEATH TO PIGS, not just a few.

 

[Lovejac]

It is upsetting that this article, published just days ago on 9-2-14 still perpetuates basic inaccuracies presented as facts. Such as MB had his hands in the air and was surrendering. Such as MB's body lay in the street for four hours uncovered.

It did give me a really good view into the rather hopeless mindset that young black men in the area fall victim to and their mistrust of authorities and the justice system and for that I am grateful. But the inaccuracies around what we know know and have know for a while about the facts of what happened that day only serve to illustrate that part of the problem is not based in reality but in perception and no amount of protesting can change a deeply seated misperception of reality. JMO thoughts.

https://news.vice.com/article/things-in-ferguson-are-going-to-change-for-real

My shock finally ended last night when while on twitter, I saw the 'MB DID pay for the cigars, see this video that LE doesn't want you to see.'

Seriously, y'all! I kid not

 

[tlcya]

Sure, if you watched the 'news' then thats what you would see. I was watching the 'news' and hearing how 'peaceful' the protestors were. but had livestream going at same time, and saw something quite different. The msm news is not always a very accurate source of information.

It was not just a FEW bad apples. I saw videos of looting where there were dozens of thieves breaking into the stores. not just a few. And there were hundreds chanting DEATH TO PIGS, not just a few.

I agree, I saw the same livefeeds we all watched on those nights and there were more than a few bad apples. I do believe tho that many of those bad apples came from some distance to participate in the looting and burning and that they are not a true reflection of the citizens of Ferguson. I do want the people of Ferguson to be heard and have the right to peacefully congregate and have their concerns acknowledged and examined. But with so much rhetoric and agenda driven activism coupled with the out of towners who only arrived to add to the chaos (MOO) those voices are being lost.

 

[sonjay]

I was wondering who you initially "sided" with (MB/OW for clarity,) if you opinion has changed and what your tipping point was that perhaps changed your change in direction, either way.

For me, I initially sided with MB and began to lean toward OW after the store video and completely flipped when I learned of the punch in the face.

I initially fell for the story as originally reported -- racist white cop, innocent black teen gunned down for no reason. It's not likely, but there are some very very bad cops out there, and this case could have involved one of those. FTR, I firmly believe that most cops are good, but I recognize the existence of bad ones. Criminal/evil/racist/corrupt cops are, IMO, far worse than any garden-variety street criminal, and I was ready to hate OW.

But as more evidence came out, and I began to get a truer picture of what actually happened, I fairly quickly changed my thinking, and I now believe that MB assaulted OW and would have assaulted him again and/or killed him if OW hadn't shot him. The strong-arm robbery, the assault at the car, and the turning around and approaching/charging/stumbling toward OW.... those are not the actions of an innocent little boy on his way to grandma's house.

However, I was still concerned about the response of the police to the protests, and the apparent disconnect between the FPD and the residents of Ferguson, and other issues that have been raised. I thought the MB case was the wrong case to use as a platform to address those issues, but I still cared about those issues.

Sadly, the MB side has gone so over the top, and so willfully ignores basic truths, and is so rabid in its condemnation of OW, that my attitude has become more one-sided and entrenched in direct inverse proportion to the deliberate disingenuousness of the other side. At this point, I no longer care whether the Ferguson PD has any corruption or any racist cops, and I no longer care about the protesters' rights to protest, and I no longer care if black people in Ferguson get stopped by police disproportionately. This case has become a caricature of itself, and I now just want to see OW cleared and able to move on with his life. After that happens, I'll be willing to revisit the other problems, but when the MB side makes it all about wanting OW dead, I'm just not interested in anything else they have to say.

 

[mdana]

So are you saying that MB is so amazingly *fast* that the bullet left OW's gun while MB was fleeing (facing backward) but BEFORE the bullet(s) reached him - he turned around facing OW? I'm going to consult my physics book.....

Not sure how you read what I wrote and interpreted it in the manner you did. I am happy to clarify, if I was not clear originally. The diagram is with palms facing outwards parallel with front thighs. I know of no one that walks or stands like that. People are making the diagram the basis for shots to the front or the back. It is just showing where the shots landed, not exactly where the arm or hand was when the shot pierced the body. There are multiple witnessess that state that shots were fired as MB was fleeing and unless he was running backwards, OW was shooting at MB's backside. Until, it is proven that all of them were mistaken, it seems like there was one shot fired from the car, then 6 shots later and then approx. 3 sec. later another 4 shots. If the witnessess are correct that the 6 shots were taken while MB was fleeing then at most 4-5 (depending on where the shot from the SUV landed) shots were taken with MB facing OW. 1-2 must have landed with MB's back towards OW. I am working under the impression MB turned in the 3 sec. period between the middle 6 shots and last 4 taken, under the assumption the audio caught at least 10 of the shots fired.

No magic bullet or suspension of physical laws as we understand them needed for that scenario.

 

[tlcya]

I initially fell for the story as originally reported -- racist white cop, innocent black teen gunned down for no reason. It's not likely, but there are some very very bad cops out there, and this case could have involved one of those. FTR, I firmly believe that most cops are good, but I recognize the existence of bad ones. Criminal/evil/racist/corrupt cops are, IMO, far worse than any garden-variety street criminal, and I was ready to hate OW.

But as more evidence came out, and I began to get a truer picture of what actually happened, I fairly quickly changed my thinking, and I now believe that MB assaulted OW and would have assaulted him again and/or killed him if OW hadn't shot him. The strong-arm robbery, the assault at the car, and the turning around and approaching/charging/stumbling toward OW.... those are not the actions of an innocent little boy on his way to grandma's house.

However, I was still concerned about the response of the police to the protests, and the apparent disconnect between the FPD and the residents of Ferguson, and other issues that have been raised. I thought the MB case was the wrong case to use as a platform to address those issues, but I still cared about those issues.

Sadly, the MB side has gone so over the top, and so willfully ignores basic truths, and is so rabid in its condemnation of OW, that my attitude has become more one-sided and entrenched in direct inverse proportion to the deliberate disingenuousness of the other side. At this point, I no longer care whether the Ferguson PD has any corruption or any racist cops, and I no longer care about the protesters' rights to protest, and I no longer care if black people in Ferguson get stopped by police disproportionately. This case has become a caricature of itself, and I now just want to see OW cleared and able to move on with his life. After that happens, I'll be willing to revisit the other problems, but when the MB side makes it all about wanting OW dead, I'm just not interested in anything else they have to say.

you may catch H E double toothpicks for it but I appreciate your honesty. The BBM really struck a chord and put in a nutshell what I have typed paragraphs trying to express. Thank you.

 

[Linda7NJ]

you may catch H E double toothpicks for it but I appreciate your honesty. The BBM really struck a chord and put in a nutshell what I have typed paragraphs trying to express. Thank you.

Yep, sonjay nailed it. Everything I'm feeling and so eloquently !

Thank you sonjay!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mdana]

So whoever is remaining in the Fergus*n police force (that is not disgusted by all of the politics, grandstanding, rioting, violence, hatred, etc, etc)......what would make them want to stay?
Why would they want to (no matter what their race is)?
LE has protocols & policies in place that relies on judgements & typically the "most reliable witness--believe me I know from experience in the Court of Law) is law enforcement. So you don't mess with them---it's very simple.

Why would any officer in that town want to stay there anymore? <modsnip>

Who will be left to police that town?

Perhaps the NBP will do a better job?

Let's find out, shall we?

BBM
This is racist and if you don't think so, substitute Bob McCulloch is a "white man" first and foremost and can't do his job with no other basis for that conclusion.