MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #16

[katydid23]

I think that that is probably a bit of an overstatement. Some things will change though. For example, a circle that I have seen play out more often than not is Jane Doe gets a traffic ticket. Jane Doe is given a Court date of 9/7/14. Jane Doe has a baby and can't find a babysitter but knows she has a Court date so, not wanting to create further problems, appears at the Courthouse on 9/7/14 but is turned away at the door because she brought her baby. Jane Doe now is charged with failing to appear even though she did appear and not just that but now Jane Doe has a warrant issued. Also, in Missouri, because she "failed to appear" for her Court date, the same Court that turned her away at the door can also turn in the failure to appear to Jefferson City and now Jane Doe not only has a warrant for "failing to appear" but also has a compliance suspension of her license for "failing to appear". Now Jane Doe, who was breaking no laws at the time, is pulled over simply because a cop was following behind her and decided to run her plates, which comes back showing a suspended license. Maybe she's actually taken to jail. Maybe not. Now, what was going to be an $80 fine for speeding has turned into $80(underlying ticket) plus $100(FTA) plus $250(driving while suspended) plus $20(reinstatement fee) equals $450 all because she was turned away at the door and told she failed to appear when she did, in fact appear. Not everyone can then afford the $450 and guess what. The circle goes on and on and on. The system guarantees it won't end.

Sounds strange to me that the court would not give her a later appearance date if necessary. My daughter had a court date for a ticket, but found a great new job that started the same day. We went to court an hour early that morning and she told the bailiff that she had a new job starting at 9 am. He gave her a new court date for 2 weeks later. And My daughter is half black.

If you have a court date then you need to figure out a way to honor it. Hard to believe that you have no family, friends or neighbors to watch your child for a court visit. How does she work or do anything else ever?

 

[reedus23]

I didn't know they turned away people with children. I have seen babies and children in our local traffic court. They should change that regulation for sure.

That is one of the most common frustrations I have seen first hand. In fairness, I have NOT seen that in Ferguson, but in many of the surrounding small municipalities. I don't know Ferguson's policy frankly. The other thing I've seen that creates problems is some will close the court room doors if you're 15 minutes late. Just seems a bit rigid to me. I completely get wanting to have some decorum in the court room, but turning people away because they're in shorts is another one. That's rarer but I've seen it. No hats. No cell phones. No pants sagging to your knees. No food. No drink. No weapons. I get all of that and that's all reasonable. I'll tell you the other problem I see on very rare occasions is a person shows up but are told they don't have Court that night so they leave only to go through the same process and no one will believe them when they say they did, in fact, show up. Those kind of clerical errors are rare but they do happen and when they do happen they can be harsh.

 

[BirdycatNY]

Sounds strange to me that the court would not give her a later appearance date if necessary. My daughter had a court date for a ticket, but found a great new job that started the same day. We went to court an hour early that morning and she told the bailiff that she had a new job starting at 9 am. He gave her a new court date for 2 weeks later. And My daughter is half black.

If you have a court date then you need to figure out a way to honor it. Hard to believe that you have no family, friends or neighbors to watch your child for a court visit. How does she work or do anything else ever?

My guess is it's not true or the woman thought that she wasn't able to bring a child to court. If you have a court appearance, I can't see any court turning someone away because they brought a child to court.

Quoting Reedus " The other thing I've seen that creates problems is some will close the court room doors if you're 15 minutes late. Just seems a bit rigid to me. I completely get wanting to have some decorum in the court room, but turning people away because they're in shorts is another one. That's rarer but I've seen it. No hats. No cell phones. No pants sagging to your knees. No food. No drink. No weapons. I get all of that and that's all reasonable. I'll tell you the other problem I see on very rare occasions is a person shows up but are told they don't have Court that night so they leave only to go through the same process and no one will believe them when they say they did, in fact, show up. Those kind of clerical errors are rare but they do happen and when they do happen they can be harsh".

No, the rules are not harsh, they are rules for everyone to follow imo and are there for safety, orderly conduct and other reasons.

 

[reedus23]

And it's a system we ALL live under.






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Meh. Haven't seen those same type of rules in predominantly white municipalities. Though, I would agree I wouldn't be able to bring my child to St. Ann either but the odds of me getting a ticket in St. Ann when I don't live/work there are slim.

 

[katydid23]

That is one of the most common frustrations I have seen first hand. In fairness, I have NOT seen that in Ferguson, but in many of the surrounding small municipalities. I don't know Ferguson's policy frankly. The other thing I've seen that creates problems is some will close the court room doors if you're 15 minutes late. Just seems a bit rigid to me. I completely get wanting to have some decorum in the court room, but turning people away because they're in shorts is another one. That's rarer but I've seen it. No hats. No cell phones. No pants sagging to your knees. No food. No drink. No weapons. I get all of that and that's all reasonable. I'll tell you the other problem I see on very rare occasions is a person shows up but are told they don't have Court that night so they leave only to go through the same process and no one will believe them when they say they did, in fact, show up. Those kind of clerical errors are rare but they do happen and when they do happen they can be harsh.

Right, but its not a civil rights violation for the door to be closed after 15 minutes.

And ALL of us have to pay our tickets or they go to warrant. Happened to my husband because he flat out forgot to pay his speeding ticket. He was away on a work trip when I got the mail saying his license was about to be revoked and a warrant would be issued. I went to traffic court early the next morning, spent HOURS AND HOURS waiting in line, just to pay the exorbitant fine. Now I was lucky enough to have the funds available, however there was a printed wksheet, which gave me several alternatives to paying it off immediately. My husband could have asked for a payment plan, or done community service, or had another court date, to discuss with the judge, some financial hardship issues.

 

[reedus23]

rsbm: Every traffic ticket I have ever gotten (or someone else has I've seen) has a pay by mail, in person, or online option, along with a court date if one desires to challenge it.

Most do here too. Of course, requires a credit card and internet access. Not everyone has that, particularly in poorer neighborhoods. Even I, for example, have zero credit cards. And that all presupposes they weren't wanting to give an explanation or defense to the Judge. The no proof of insurance charges, for example, are typically dismissed if you bring that proof in, even without getting an attorney.

 

[reedus23]

My guess is it's not true or the woman thought that she wasn't able to bring a child to court. If you have a court appearance, I can't see any court turning someone away because they brought a child to court.

Quoting Reedus " The other thing I've seen that creates problems is some will close the court room doors if you're 15 minutes late. Just seems a bit rigid to me. I completely get wanting to have some decorum in the court room, but turning people away because they're in shorts is another one. That's rarer but I've seen it. No hats. No cell phones. No pants sagging to your knees. No food. No drink. No weapons. I get all of that and that's all reasonable. I'll tell you the other problem I see on very rare occasions is a person shows up but are told they don't have Court that night so they leave only to go through the same process and no one will believe them when they say they did, in fact, show up. Those kind of clerical errors are rare but they do happen and when they do happen they can be harsh".

No, the rules are not harsh, they are rules for everyone to follow imo and are there for safety, orderly conduct and other reasons.

Well I hope you never have a flat tire on your way to court. And yes, it is true. People have been and are turned away at the door. Not sure why you're saying it's not true. Hell, even the presiding Judge for St. Louis County Circuit Court which actually presides over all the municipalities issued a directive to the municipalities to change or she'll change it for them. I posted the link in a previous thread.

 

[gngr~snap]

I bet it is too. And they get to ask questions of the witnesses. So I imagine they will have a few questions for Dorian. Like 'why' do you think the officer was trying to pull MB INTO the car through the window? Could MB have been leaning in and punching him?

Throwing out all witnesses description of the incident and using only what LE has said about the shooting, I am starting to believe that this may be the case.
Ballistics will confirm it or not. Thinking MB reached for OW weapon in the car, both men being Right arm dominant (if they are) first set of shots fired at or from inside cruiser how far could they have run from OW's cruiser in 3 seconds? I may have blindly followed some information I was fed early on, but MB was not 35 feet from the cruiser.
35 yards... Maybe.
I just don't think OW would have fired only once when in the cruiser. I believe he would have kept firing.
Maybe he did keep firing into the air and MB was running away?
A bullet landed above a window in a bottom floor apartment... somehow.
Moo

All posts are MOO

 

[Oceans]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the evidence/testimony being presented to this Grand Jury was exculpatory evidence.


9-11.233

Presentation of Exculpatory Evidence

In United States v. Williams, 112 S.Ct. 1735 (1992), the Supreme Court held that the Federal courts' supervisory powers over the grand jury did not include the power to make a rule allowing the dismissal of an otherwise valid indictment where the prosecutor failed to introduce substantial exculpatory evidence to a grand jury. It is the policy of the Department of Justice, however, that when a prosecutor conducting a grand jury inquiry is personally aware of substantial evidence that directly negates the guilt of a subject of the investigation, the prosecutor must present or otherwise disclose such evidence to the grand jury before seeking an indictment against such a person. While a failure to follow the Department's policy should not result in dismissal of an indictment, appellate courts may refer violations of the policy to the Office of Professional Responsibility for review.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/11mcrm.htm

I agree! I would be most interested to know what kind of videos are presented to the GJ. If someone actually videotaped the entire incident as it happened. And then, of course, I would LOVE to hear what Dorian Johnson is telling the GJ and what kind of questions they have for him.

Last but not least: the forensic evidence! Was there any DNA of MB on ODW? On his gun? What kind of evidence was in the police car? Blood? Signs of a struggle?

I'm wondering if the distance can be determined between ODW and MB when the fatal shot was fired. I'm wondering if forensic can show if MB was full speed running?

What will the autopsy report reveal. The toxicology tests: where there any other substances in MB's body beside marijuana? Was MB on any medical drugs for treatment of an illness? Will MB's medial record be reviewed?

Will the GJ be able to see any possible juvenile records?

Those are just a few questions which came to my mind. I don't know how much will be revealed to the public. But I sure look forward to get some answers and hopefully a clearer picture of what went down that day and why. JMO.

 

[reedus23]

Right, but its not a civil rights violation for the door to be closed after 15 minutes.

And ALL of us have to pay our tickets or they go to warrant. Happened to my husband because he flat out forgot to pay his speeding ticket. He was away on a work trip when I got the mail saying his license was about to be revoked and a warrant would be issued. I went to traffic court early the next morning, spent HOURS AND HOURS waiting in line, just to pay the exorbitant fine. Now I was lucky enough to have the funds available, however there was a printed wksheet, which gave me several alternatives to paying it off immediately. My husband could have asked for a payment plan, or done community service, or had another court date, to discuss with the judge, some financial hardship issues.

May or may not be a violation. Don't know. But I'm sure those kind of things will be looked at. If they are applied even handedly across the board then no worries. I have only seen it happen in some of the small municipalities in north county though.

 

[reedus23]

I agree! I would be most interested to know what kind of videos are presented to the GJ. If someone actually videotaped the entire incident as it happened. And then, of course, I would LOVE to hear what Dorian Johnson is telling the GJ and what kind of questions they have for him.

Last but not least: the forensic evidence! Was there any DNA of MB on ODW? On his gun? What kind of evidence was in the police car? Blood? Signs of a struggle?

I'm wondering if the distance can be determined between ODW and MB when the fatal shot was fired. I'm wondering if forensic can show if MB was full speed running?

What will the autopsy report reveal. The toxicology tests: where there any other substances in MB's body beside marijuana? Was MB on any medical drugs for treatment of an illness? Will MB's medial record be reviewed?

Will the GJ be able to see any possible juvenile records?

Those are just a few questions which came to my mind. I don't know how much will be revealed to the public. But I sure look forward to get some answers and hopefully a clearer picture of what went down that day and why. JMO.

Good post. All important things that I can't wait to learn as well. I was trying to put a list together of what evidence we are aware of so far and kept losing track in my head. Would be nice to see a comprehensive list.

 

[Oceans]

Good post. All important things that I can't wait to learn as well. I was trying to put a list together of what evidence we are aware of so far and kept losing track in my head. Would be nice to see a comprehensive list.

Thank you. That's a great thought to make a list about the evidence we know so far.

What we know are some of the timelines. Like, when MB and DJ were in the store, when they left, when ODW was at the sick call, when he encountered MB and DJ, when the backup police officers arrived etc.

The surveillance video which confirms that MB committed strong-armed robbery.

The autopsy: that MB was shot 6 times from the front (still many questions about more details, like in and outgoing bullets, from which angle the last bullet entered MB's head).

Toxicology: MB had marijuana in his system. Still more questions about possible other substances.

ODW had a swollen face from MB's assault. Still more questions what the x-rays and CT scan showed.

That's all I can think of right now. Anyone else?

 

[Footwarrior]

Some more physical evidence:

Audio recording that captured most of the gunshots.

Location of SUV and Brown's body on the street.

Location of cartridge shells.

Location of any recovered bullets.

Blood trails and splatters.

There may be gunshot residue evidence on clothing and SUV interior.

 

[Oceans]

Throwing out all witnesses description of the incident and using only what LE has said about the shooting, I am starting to believe that this may be the case.
Ballistics will confirm it or not. Thinking MB reached for OW weapon in the car, both men being Right arm dominant (if they are) first set of shots fired at or from inside cruiser how far could they have run from OW's cruiser in 3 seconds? I may have blindly followed some information I was fed early on, but MB was not 35 feet from the cruiser.
35 yards... Maybe.
I just don't think OW would have fired only once when in the cruiser. I believe he would have kept firing.
Maybe he did keep firing into the air and MB was running away?
A bullet landed above a window in a bottom floor apartment... somehow.
Moo

All posts are MOO

IMO, the GJ will be able to listen to the statements several witnesses made to the media. And hopefully be able to ask them additional questions. After all, some of those statements gave the impression that MB had his hands up in surrender, that he was shot in the back etc which let to an outcry in the community. I sure hope the GJ has the opportunity to have a good look at those witnesses and have the chance to interrogate them thoroughly.

I hope as well that the forensic and ballistic evidence gives a much clearer picture and corroborates with witness statements. Those witnesses might be the ones we have not seen or heard of in the media, JMO.

IMO, a person can run 35 feet in three seconds. 35 feet, that is the distance where I'm sitting here at my computer, going through our entire large living room through the hallway out the front door. Looking at this distance, those 35 feet, yes, I could run that in 3 seconds. (I'm quite healthy and fit.)

35 yards = 105 feet. I would guess it would take 6 to 7 seconds to run that.

IMO, ODW fired only that one shot in the vehicle while MB tried to grab his gun. Then MB took off running and only stopped and turned around when ODW yelled "FREEZE". I believe, MB then taunted ODW which his arms to the side, saying something like "what? Are you going to shoot me?" and then suddenly running full speed towards ODW in an effort to bull-rush him. And that is when ODW starting shooting the first rounds but when MB just "kept on coming" towards ODW, he shot the second round. That's just my opinion.

I believe the bullet which landed in the window frame might have been from the struggle when MB was trying to grab ODW's gun. JMO.

 

[Oceans]

Some more physical evidence:

Audio recording that captured most of the gunshots.

Location of SUV and Brown's body on the street.

Location of cartridge shells.

Location of any recovered bullets.

Blood trails and splatters.

There may be gunshot residue evidence on clothing and SUV interior.

Great list! Thanks! May I add?

Location of MB's red Cardinal cap

Location of MB's flip flops

Location of 'golden object', possibly shell casing

Position of MB's body, facing ODW's vehicle, face down, arms on side of body, abrasions to his face from the fall (was is caused from running full speed? Or from 'falling flat down' as Dr. Baden indicated?)

 

[Oceans]

Main witnesses:

Dorian Johnson

Officer Darren Wilson

 

[human]

Why would a person with no weapon take on someone with a gun?

Why would someone think LE would not shoot him with the gun?

Why would someone with no weapon run towards LE with a gun?

 

[momrids6]

Most do here too. Of course, requires a credit card and internet access. Not everyone has that, particularly in poorer neighborhoods. Even I, for example, have zero credit cards. And that all presupposes they weren't wanting to give an explanation or defense to the Judge. The no proof of insurance charges, for example, are typically dismissed if you bring that proof in, even without getting an attorney.

You are allowed to bring proof to the cashier when paying in person, and you may also pay in cash. Can't pay the fine, don't do the crime.

Since there seems to be great knowledge of the warrants issued if one does not pay a ticket, I cannot imagine people not working out some sort of payment arrangements before that happens. Ignoring a ticket does not make it go away...

( I live in a Title 1 county- so there are not rows of McMansions, and it is diverse)

 

[Linda7NJ]

Why would a person with no weapon take on someone with a gun?

Why would someone think LE would not shoot him with the gun?

Why would someone with no weapon run towards LE with a gun?

These are the kinda questions I ask myself practically about every single thread topic here at Websleuths.
The criminal mind makes absolutely no logical sense to me. Maybe that's why I have stuck around here for so many years?
I try to comprehend it and hope for justice.



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[Oceans]

Why would a person with no weapon take on someone with a gun?

Why would someone think LE would not shoot him with the gun?

Why would someone with no weapon run towards LE with a gun?

MB would be a good candidate to answer those questions if he had survived. It's sad that his young life is lost. Maybe his good friend Dorian Johnson can shed more light on this, what led to this incident.

One possibility could be that MB was "on something" as Josie indicated. MB had marijuana in his system. Maybe there was another substance in his system that he would not think clear.

I was speculating if MB was possibly depressed? Maybe even suicidal? And in combination with the marijuana and possible something else he 'dared' the officer and just didn't care about his own life any longer. JMO. I made a post about this in the previous thread.